Dr. Lee on duct tape in Ramsey case

[Barbara]

Originally posted by ajt400
Maybe from a vampire, that is also a possibility, right? If it was not a stun-gun, then what the hell was it????

I'll go through this once again. You may already have seen me post this as you are awfully familiar AJT, but in case you haven't, I'll explain this again:

Just because WE (and we are not physicians, nor have we seen the body in person), cannot figure out what those marks ARE, doesn't mean that they HAVE to be stun gun marks.

This is Logic 101 stuff.

Because Dr. Doberson appears fairly certain that they are stun gun marks, doesn't make it so. After all, that's what he was given to work with: a photo and a suggestion

I'm still waiting for Toth's list of the "many" who believe it was a stun gun.

Even Lou Smit backed off that one.

So trained mosquitos and vampires are in the same possibility zone as a stun gun.

 

[TLynn]

Only the Ramseys know how they used up the duct tape. I'm sure they had a purpose for it - or they wouldn't have purchased it (possibly from the receipt that matches from the hardware store).

Where'd the idea of a stun gun mark being on the tape come from....?! Huh?! Huh?!

Baloney -

 

[Jayelles]

Fibres on the sticky side of the duct tape could have gotten there by innocent transfer. Patsy was in close contact with JonBenet the entire day and she got her dressed for bed. If JonBenet hugged her mother at any point, some fibres could have stuck to her mouth and henceforth to the duct tape.

The fibres on the cord knot are harder to justify.

 

[TLynn]

Do NOT let this thread get into the spin of a stun gun - when, in fact, the duct tape is the issue - AND the duct tape points directly to the Ramseys.

There's no wiggling out of this one.

 

[Ivy]

Jayelles, even if Patsy's jacket fibers were innocently transferred to JonBenet's mouth that day, I can't imagine the fibers remaining on JonBenet's mouth after she ate the pineapple.

 

[TLynn]

The transfer of Patsy's fiber to the duct tape could've come from the blanket (when the tape was placed on it).

The blanket came from the downstairs dryer. If Patsy removed the blanket from the dryer; there you have the possible transfer.

Then, again, we all know Patsy claims Priscilla owned the same jacket.

 

[Ivy]

Were fibers from the blanket also found on the tape? If the jacket fibers came from the blanket, I would think that blanket fibers would have also been on the tape.

 

[Jayelles]

Ivy:-

Jayelles, even if Patsy's jacket fibers were innocently transferred to JonBenet's mouth that day, I can't imagine the fibers remaining on JonBenet's mouth after she ate the pineapple.

Well that depends on whether the Ramseys are lying about the events that night. If JonBenet was awake and when she got home, she could easily have snuck a chunk of pineapple without her parents' knowledge before going upstairs to bed. She could then have hugged her mother before going to sleep.

 

[Britt]

Originally posted by Ivy
...and only those fibers--made their way to the basement and stuck themselves to the strip of tape taken from JonBenet's mouth.

How doubly ironic that at least one of those migrating fibers tangled itself in the knot on the neck cord.

And they leapt into the paint tote as well. Energetic little fibers, weren't they, considering Patsy didn't even go to the basement.

 

[ajt400]

Originally posted by Barbara
I'll go through this once again. You may already have seen me post this as you are awfully familiar AJT, but in case you haven't, I'll explain this again:

Just because WE (and we are not physicians, nor have we seen the body in person), cannot figure out what those marks ARE, doesn't mean that they HAVE to be stun gun marks.

This is Logic 101 stuff.

Because Dr. Doberson appears fairly certain that they are stun gun marks, doesn't make it so. After all, that's what he was given to work with: a photo and a suggestion

I'm still waiting for Toth's list of the "many" who believe it was a stun gun.

Even Lou Smit backed off that one.

So trained mosquitos and vampires are in the same possibility zone as a stun gun.

With all do respect Barbara, I don't kow how you could know me. Maybe I just have some of the same ideas as someone you know. That is neither here nor there, anyway
I understand that, we, as non-physicians, cannot deiscern these marks, but what about the people that can?
It seems that if there are strange marks on the body, the BPD would want to be able to say what they are, correct?
If not stun-guns, then what. (Bear in mind, I don't mean, 'If it's ot a stun-gun--and it HAS to be a stun-gun,") Everyone is quick to say "It's not a stun-gun," okay so what is it? It's not a normal abrasion, maybe it has something to do w/the garrote, who knows?

 

[gretchen]

About the duct tape......I remember reading somewhere that no tongue print was on the tape, leading investigators to concur the tape was put on JonBenet's mouth after the murder. If her tongue print was on the tape it would have meant that JB was alive at the time. In other words, the tape was just staging.

 

[ajt400]

P.S. Barbara, there is no mystery to me, I am who I am. I don't know why you question that. Why would I hide who I am anyway? This is just a forum!!!

 

[Cherokee]

Originally posted by Jayelles
2" of of tape isn't very long. Surely if the perp had the whole roll he'd use a bit more than that? Think, if you were cutting a piece of tape to put over someone's mouth - wouldn't you make it extend a bit on either side?

Absolutely.

For the sake of argument, take a kicking and screaming and wiggling six-year-old (remember, Nedra said JBR would not have gotten up willingly from her bed) and with their head moving, try to put a 2 inch piece of used tape (as per Dr. Lee) across their mouths, AND MAKE IT STAY THERE.

Can't be done. And it especially can't be done without saliva or teeth marks or tongue marks not being on the sticky side of the tape over the victim's mouth.

The tape didn't not have to come from a huge roll, or a new roll or ANY roll.

It could have been used to wrap paintbrushes together to store in the tote. It could have come from My Twinn doll packaging. It could have come from any number of places.

The reason?

JBR was already dead and not struggling, therefore, a nice long piece of sturdy new tape was not necessary. All that was needed was just a little bit of tape to put over JBR's motionless mouth in order to present the staging of a "bound and gagged" victim.

And while I'm at it ... Toth, if you're going to make statements like "the tape was new" then you'd better back it up with document sources. You don't know that any more than you know what movies the Ramseys watched.

Dr. Lee, who has seen the evidence, just said the tape was USED. (Big thanks to Candy for providing that information.) Steve Thomas alluded to the same thing in his book when he said the tape could have come from the back of a painting or art project.

Those are sources. Now let's see yours.





My opinion.

 

[ajt400]

It couldn't be done--unless you had something, like, say a stun-gun, to subdue her.

 

[Cherokee]

Originally posted by ajt400
It couldn't be done--unless you had something, like, say a stun-gun, to subdue her.

Even then, there would still have been saliva on the sticky side of the tape. She would still have been alive and breathing with all normal body functions even IF she was subdued.

There is no saliva, no marks.

And there was no stun gun. Myth, myth and more myth.

Patsy wrote the ransom note. John helped with the staging. Burke MAY have been involved. There was no intruder, and the crime scene was bungled by investigators. The family was non-cooperative from the word go.

No far-fetched scenario fits all of the available evidence. The family was involved. Spin it any way you want, but it doesn't change the truth.



My opinion.

 

[SisterSocks]

Originally posted by TLynn
Do NOT let this thread get into the spin of a stun gun - when, in fact, the duct tape is the issue - AND the duct tape points directly to the Ramseys.

There's no wiggling out of this one.

Sure everything goes back to the Ramsey's it was there house .

An intruder planned this as a hate crime for John ?

I doubt it Tlynn,but a stun gun was used. Duct tape was used

You can't know for sure the Rams did the deed .:nono:

Everyones got duct tape .

Someone in Boudler used a stun gun on JB.

 

[Nehemiah]

"Duct tape is not used for wrapping gifts. Duct tape is not used for mending clothes."

I thought perhaps Dr. Lee meant the tape was 2" wide rather than long.

Toth, maybe you haven't read the book that chronicles all the uses for duct tape? I have used it to mend a hem until I could repair it; sometimes females in pageants use it to lift their breasts and show cleavage. Lots of uses there.

 

[Sabrina]

Originally posted by ajt400
With all do respect Barbara, I don't kow how you could know me. Maybe I just have some of the same ideas as someone you know. That is neither here nor there, anyway
I understand that, we, as non-physicians, cannot deiscern these marks, but what about the people that can?
It seems that if there are strange marks on the body, the BPD would want to be able to say what they are, correct?
If not stun-guns, then what. (Bear in mind, I don't mean, 'If it's ot a stun-gun--and it HAS to be a stun-gun,") Everyone is quick to say "It's not a stun-gun," okay so what is it? It's not a normal abrasion, maybe it has something to do w/the garrote, who knows?

Alt-- Most of the medical doctors I've heard dispell the marks as stun gun marks. Dr. Baden and Dr. Spitz are two which come to mind that have been on many tv shows stating so. Dr. Spitz even went so far as to say something like it could have been an abrasion from pressing against a snap or button. He said one must look at the photo under a microscope. Taking a digital photo and using computer software is not the same as a scientific microscope. The physician who ACTUALLY saw the marks said they were abrasions. Stun guns leave burns.

And yes, what Gretchen says is true. There was no toungue imprint which means the tape was probably put over her mouth afterwards.

Yep, sometimes those fibers just fly all over the place --just to incriminate the Ramseys.

We have no proof Priscilla owned the same jacket, just Patsy saying she owned a "similar" one. This is the same Patsy who does not know what shoes her son owns.

 

[Ivy]

Even Dobersen himself backed down a little and admitted that to find out what the marks are, they would have to be examined firsthand. He said that identifying the marks was not possible just by looking at photos. A stun gun would produce electrical burns on the skin, and those tissue changes would be clearly recognizable under a microscope.

 

[tipper]

But Doberson also said he'd be willing to testify to a reasonable degree of medical certainty that they were from a stun gun.