Dr. Phil Interviews Burke Ramsey (9/12 & 9/13 2016)

[neesaki]

I am one of the ones who believe BR killed her purpose and probably has been plotting it for awhile before he actually did it. He got a thrill out of it.

I can actually see that, and have thought for a while now that he's the one who lured her down with the pineapple. I think it's also possible he's the one who did the garroting, iow, versus it being part of a cover up. For one, I have a hard time believing either parent would be able to do that to their little girl, for any reason. For another, I think BR hated JBR so much he wanted to torture her. And I have no problem believing he fantasized about it for some time beforehand.

I also wonder if the head injury came after the strangulation because of the lack of blood. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't a closed head injury , it was actually an open fracture wasn't it? I guess I need to go back and review.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

Thanks for your comments.
Re the issues you raise on assertion #3. I completely agree.
And indeed I would go with the simpler explanation. I agree it is entirely possible if not likely that Burke strangled first and perhaps final.
The head wound for me is very very problematic.
I am a neuroradiologist by profession and have interpreted thousands of head scans of victims sustaining serious blunt trauma to the skull.
I simply do not recall a single incidence of someone suffering a powerful blow to the skull by a blunt object - club, rock, bat, bar. lamp etc or who have sustained a deceleration injury to the head ( head vs dashboard, window, wall etc) who has not concomitantly presented with fairly massive scalp swelling at or near the point of impact.
The scalp almost always generates "edema" "swelling" "interstitial bleeding" - "goose egg" "bruising" that extends far beyond the point of impact. In the event that the scalp overlying skin is broken - lacerated, very substantial bleeding occurs over the scalp and face. On this point, I am only referring to all the layers constituting the soft tissue covering of the skull.

To cause a depressed well demarcateded skull fracture in a child (different force requirements vs a more mature adult skull) necessitates a substantial amount of concentrated kinetic energy (but easily delivered by a 9 yr old boy). The pathologic elements within the brain and its leptomeninges that would ensue at the fracture site as well as pathologic changes to the brain at the opposite side of the blow would be distinctive. The early coroners autopsy report and description of scalp, skull, dura, arachnoid, brain cortex, subcortex, deep white matter, pattern of brain swelling did not seem in keeping with an acute or even subacute blunt instrument blow to the skull. A number of statements struck me as "off" or "curious".


Thus I am on the hunt to view autopsy photos as well as photos of the detached brain, and microscopic views of the cut brain.
To date I have been unsuccessful in finding these photos.

If I could view this material I could advance a more reliable of what happened that night.

Thanks Zeno49. I have been wondering the same things but I did find an article somewhere that stated that sometimes head wounds will take 24 hours to show edema or bruising to the scalp. I will try to find it. But I certainly don't have the experience or education that you do, and I certainly haven't seen as many head injuries as you have, so I'm glad you're here.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

I can actually see that, and have thought for a while now that he's the one who lured her down with the pineapple. I think it's also possible he's the one who did the garroting, iow, versus it being part of a cover up. For one, I have a hard time believing either parent would be able to do that to their little girl, for any reason. For another, I think BR hated JBR so much he wanted to torture her. And I have no problem believing he fantasized about it for some time beforehand.

I also wonder if the head injury came after the strangulation because of the lack of blood. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't a closed head injury , it was actually an open fracture wasn't it? I guess I need to go back and review.

I don't believe so neesaki, but my reference point is PMPT by Lawrence Schiller. I believe that LE only saw the ligature at first and some generalized scrapes and abrasions but nothing to signify a head trauma or depression to the skull. It was noted on the autopsy that her head was turned to the right side, so it may not have been evident on initial inspection. My understanding is that they found the skull fracture during the autopsy. But someone pleas correct me if I am wrong. I am supplying the link to the autopsy.
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

 

[neesaki]

I can actually see that, and have thought for a while now that he's the one who lured her down with the pineapple. I think it's also possible he's the one who did the garroting, iow, versus it being part of a cover up. For one, I have a hard time believing either parent would be able to do that to their little girl, for any reason. For another, I think BR hated JBR so much he wanted to torture her. And I have no problem believing he fantasized about it for some time beforehand.

I also wonder if the head injury came after the strangulation because of the lack of blood. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't a closed head injury , it was actually an open fracture wasn't it? I guess I need to go back and review.

To answer my own question, I Just checked out the autopsy report and it states there was "no scalp trauma".

 

[Heymom]

I can actually see that, and have thought for a while now that he's the one who lured her down with the pineapple. I think it's also possible he's the one who did the garroting, iow, versus it being part of a cover up. For one, I have a hard time believing either parent would be able to do that to their little girl, for any reason. For another, I think BR hated JBR so much he wanted to torture her. And I have no problem believing he fantasized about it for some time beforehand.

I also wonder if the head injury came after the strangulation because of the lack of blood. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't a closed head injury , it was actually an open fracture wasn't it? I guess I need to go back and review.

No, the autopsy showed that JonBenet's head injury had bled into her skull for somewhere around an hour - 90 minutes before her death from the strangulation. The head injury definitely came first, and the strangulation after that. The poking with the train track likely happened after she was already dead, maybe she had reacted to pain before that and Burke wanted to make sure she was really dead? But the autopsy listed strangulation as the first cause of death, which means the head blow didn't kill her.

As for torture, Chief Kolar states in his book that it was not likely a torture motivation as someone who tortures wants to see a reaction from his victim, and JonBenet wasn't reacting any more because she was unconscious from the head blow. But I do believe that there was a sick and evil aspect to this crime. John Douglas stated that the perpetrator obviously had a personal grudge against John Ramsey - I wonder if Burke had reasons to want to get back as his father?

 

[neesaki]

I don't believe so neesaki, but my reference point is PMPT by Lawrence Schiller. I believe that LE only saw the ligature at first and some generalized scrapes and abrasions but nothing to signify a head trauma or depression to the skull. It was noted on the autopsy that her head was turned to the right side, so it may not have been evident on initial inspection. My understanding is that they found the skull fracture during the autopsy. But someone pleas correct me if I am wrong. I am supplying the link to the autopsy.
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

Just saw your post after looking at the AR, yes you're correct. Thanks

 

[Heymom]

To answer my own question, I Just checked out the autopsy report and it states there was "no scalp trauma".

I do not believe that JonBenet's scalp was not traumatized at the time. I'll bet there was localized swelling that gradually went down over time. Her hair must have helped protect her scalp, and the scalp itself was not cut open during the blow.

 

[BBB167893]

It looked to me like a sly "You can't catch me" sort of smile. Like I almost expected to hear "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" after some of his responses. Especially about the pineapple.

Seems to get it from his mother. I got that feeling from her a LOT of times.

 

[neesaki]

I do not believe that JonBenet's scalp was not traumatized at the time. I'll bet there was localized swelling that gradually went down over time. Her hair must have helped protect her scalp, and the scalp itself was not cut open during the blow.

Well,I wondered the same, found it odd that due to the extent of the head injury there was no obvious trauma versus a closed head injury. I was just quoting from the autopsy report. This case is unbelievable.

 

[IBsleuthin]

Is there a chance that strangulation made the head wound appear to hemorrhage?

 

[PositiveLight]

I do not believe that JonBenet's scalp was not traumatized at the time. I'll bet there was localized swelling that gradually went down over time. Her hair must have helped protect her scalp, and the scalp itself was not cut open during the blow.

I would imagine though, IF PR or JR had been alerted to the head injury by Burke, they could have easily felt her scalp and that hole would have been palpable. Plus the swelling. It would have felt squishy. Plus, she was probably not just laying there still. She was probably convulsing and breathing loudly (death rattle) as her body was shutting down.
The same way you can feel for a baby's soft spot. you can palpate an injury that large. Her hair probably did protect her scalp from splitting.
Now if it was Burke alone, which I can easily see this being the case, he probably did poke her with the train tracks to make sure she was dead. I doubt he was in any rush either. He and her were alone in the basement by that time. I do think they shared some pineapple, maybe she used her fingers, and they went down stairs to peek at presents. Or that was his ruse to get her down there. I think he hated that JBR was mama's darling and he was seriously jealous. So many facial and head wounds in less that 2 years tells me he wanted to mess up her beauty or steal it as some would say. Listening to him on Dr. Phil explain his memories of JBR and him, did anyone notice that they all involved petty argument type of behavior? Like the elevator pressing buttons crap. That's what he remembers about his sister. That's telling in my opinion. Nothing sweet and sincere. When he acted out how she "Flaunted" (his words) on the stage. Burke had some serious issues with his sister. Smearing feces on her items? Disgusting. That in my opinion was to ruin what she had. If nothing else ... he should have been seen by a psych doc when that behavior started. Makes me think how a male dog marks his territory. To claim everything they pee all over it. I think there was a power struggle, if only in Burke's mind, over his mother's attention and affection. With JBR out of the way, he could punish his mother and also gain back all of her attention. Even if it was negative attention. I don't buy into the theory that he was on the spectrum, or nervous in the interview with DP. I think he is just a sick individual and will do what it takes to get what he wants. Hell hath no fury if he doesn't get his way. Just my humble opinion.
I go back and forth between his parents finishing her off or Burke doing it. PR wrote the note and both parents did cover it up. But, Burke is sick. DP should be ashamed of himself for even trying to show how " innocent he was ". Starting to notice a trend with him interviewing crime victims/perps. Not a good idea. He is the last person that should be doing that.

 

[cubbeegirl]

I would imagine though, IF PR or JR had been alerted to the head injury by Burke, they could have easily felt her scalp and that hole would have been palpable. Plus the swelling. It would have felt squishy. Plus, she was probably not just laying there still. She was probably convulsing and breathing loudly (death rattle) as her body was shutting down.
The same way you can feel for a baby's soft spot. you can palpate an injury that large. Her hair probably did protect her scalp from splitting.
Now if it was Burke alone, which I can easily see this being the case, he probably did poke her with the train tracks to make sure she was dead. I doubt he was in any rush either. He and her were alone in the basement by that time. I do think they shared some pineapple, maybe she used her fingers, and they went down stairs to peek at presents. Or that was his ruse to get her down there. I think he hated that JBR was mama's darling and he was seriously jealous. So many facial and head wounds in less that 2 years tells me he wanted to mess up her beauty or steal it as some would say. Listening to him on Dr. Phil explain his memories of JBR and him, did anyone notice that they all involved petty argument type of behavior? Like the elevator pressing buttons crap. That's what he remembers about his sister. That's telling in my opinion. Nothing sweet and sincere. When he acted out how she "Flaunted" (his words) on the stage. Burke had some serious issues with his sister. Smearing feces on her items? Disgusting. That in my opinion was to ruin what she had. If nothing else ... he should have been seen by a psych doc when that behavior started. Makes me think how a male dog marks his territory. To claim everything they pee all over it. I think there was a power struggle, if only in Burke's mind, over his mother's attention and affection. With JBR out of the way, he could punish his mother and also gain back all of her attention. Even if it was negative attention. I don't buy into the theory that he was on the spectrum, or nervous in the interview with DP. I think he is just a sick individual and will do what it takes to get what he wants. Hell hath no fury if he doesn't get his way. Just my humble opinion.
I go back and forth between his parents finishing her off or Burke doing it. PR wrote the note and both parents did cover it up. But, Burke is sick. DP should be ashamed of himself for even trying to show how " innocent he was ". Starting to notice a trend with him interviewing crime victims/perps. Not a good idea. He is the last person that should be doing that.

The " flaunting it " stuck a chord with me as well.
I agree , I believe he is a very disturbed young man . I don't believe it is a result of his sisters murder either , in fact I think it's just the opposite . I think her death was a result of his sickness .
I sincerely hope he has gotten some help and will continue to do so , as it is apparent that he still needs it .Likely more so after the fiasco with DP show .
And I agree... DP needs to back away from the true crime and go back to bad kids, and dysfunctional families, marraiges and drug addictions .
All of this is , as usual, just my opinion.

 

[cubbeegirl]

She sometimes reminded me of Elizabeth Taylor in Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf ...( I think that's the name of it )

 

[PositiveLight]

She sometimes reminded me of Elizabeth Taylor in Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf ...( I think that's the name of it )

YES!!! She is so dramatic !

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Heymom]

The " flaunting it " stuck a chord with me as well.
I agree , I believe he is a very disturbed young man . I don't believe it is a result of his sisters murder either , in fact I think it's just the opposite . I think her death was a result of his sickness .
I sincerely hope he has gotten some help and will continue to do so , as it is apparent that he still needs it .Likely more so after the fiasco with DP show .
And I agree... DP needs to back away from the true crime and go back to bad kids, and dysfunctional families, marraiges and drug addictions .
All of this is , as usual, just my opinion.

My hubby finally sat down and watched part of the 2nd episode on Youtube - I couldn't find the 1st one to show him. He watched Burke with fascination and agreed that he is not normal and his reactions and expressions are highly inappropriate. I watched again and saw several things I had missed the first time around - like the very excited eyes when he talks about certain subjects. The smile is distracting but if you really watch his eyes, he certainly gives up his inner excitement over the results of what happened. There is no sadness whatsoever, although I did notice his smile faded while he watched his 9-year-old self talk to the psychiatrist. And I noted again the "flaunted" action, like he was mocking her, but grinning so as to make people think he approved? "She wasn't shy," he said. While he may have wanted to "flaunt" in his own way but was too shy and envied her boldness?

As we got ready for bed, we continued to discuss the case, and hubby finally got a bit impatient with me when I reminded him that JonBenet had certainly been sexually abused before that night, and since Burke killed her, and must have also carried out the other things done to her, how does a 9-year-old boy even know where a girl's vagina is? He didn't want to talk about that and I don't blame him. It's a really troubling thought, but I think perhaps Burke had either been abused, or had been shown , because jealousy is one thing, but sexual abuse implies that the child has had some form of warped education.

 

[neesaki]

My hubby finally sat down and watched part of the 2nd episode on Youtube - I couldn't find the 1st one to show him. He watched Burke with fascination and agreed that he is not normal and his reactions and expressions are highly inappropriate. I watched again and saw several things I had missed the first time around - like the very excited eyes when he talks about certain subjects. The smile is distracting but if you really watch his eyes, he certainly gives up his inner excitement over the results of what happened. There is no sadness whatsoever, although I did notice his smile faded while he watched his 9-year-old self talk to the psychiatrist. And I noted again the "flaunted" action, like he was mocking her, but grinning so as to make people think he approved? "She wasn't shy," he said. While he may have wanted to "flaunt" in his own way but was too shy and envied her boldness?

As we got ready for bed, we continued to discuss the case, and hubby finally got a bit impatient with me when I reminded him that JonBenet had certainly been sexually abused before that night, and since Burke killed her, and must have also carried out the other things done to her, how does a 9-year-old boy even know where a girl's vagina is? He didn't want to talk about that and I don't blame him. It's a really troubling thought, but I think perhaps Burke had either been abused, or had been shown , because jealousy is one thing, but sexual abuse implies that the child has had some form of warped education.

Thats a thought, I don't know if he was sexually abused himself. But I do think it's highly possible he had been exposed to some that fueled some of his ideas and actions. Maybe he found it in his brothers room at some point, or a stash down in the attic.

 

[BBB167893]

Is there a chance that strangulation made the head wound appear to hemorrhage?

I would doubt that.

 

[RL2]

It's my opinion, that JR chose DP as a nice, safe, "controlled" place to dump his son. He has carried not only a monkey on his back but an albatross around his neck (as he should) for 20 years. Reminds me of that movie "Shutters"

With the new evidence and his new life, I think he washed his hands of BR handing him the baton, right there on DP. Presto Bango, the monkeys gone. Now if he could only do something about the albatross.

All the info that has come into the light will make interviews a nightmare. JR is over and out.

"JR is over and out."
Hahahahahaha

 

[Yvettea]

It's my opinion, that JR chose DP as a nice, safe, "controlled" place to dump his son. He has carried not only a monkey on his back but an albatross around his neck (as he should) for 20 years. Reminds me of that movie "Shutters"

With the new evidence and his new life, I think he washed his hands of BR handing him the baton, right there on DP. Presto Bango, the monkeys gone. Now if he could only do something about the albatross.

All the info that has come into the light will make interviews a nightmare. JR is over and out.

I had the same impression. Wonder if Burke knew the hand he was being dealt?

 

[Luckymanuh]

I had the same impression. Wonder if Burke knew the hand he was being dealt?

I do not think BR realized it at all. Daddy had his lawyer, LW, there he will take care of all the back lash. That is what lawyers do right? Anyways I did not do anything. Is I am sure what he thought. INHO