Ebola outbreak - general thread #8

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #681
I am unaware of any factual proof that blushing can make one’s temperature rise. Even during severe blushing (as in menopausal hot flashes, which does not apply in this instance), the core body temperature does not raise above normal.

But for merely argument sake, let say the airport scan thermometers are inaccurate. That indeed would make the CDC tell us to rely on them as an effective measure laughable. I don’t care if she had a fever or not. She should have been quarantine for 21 days.

I think that really explains the whole incident. She was afebrile at first measurement. The fact that they detained her anyway makes it pretty clear that the intent from the beginning was to quarantine her.

Also, as with menopausal hot flashes, the blood rushing to the surface of the skin does cause the skin to feel hot to the touch. The core temp may be less, but the surface temp can be higher. It is certainly plausible that a surface measurement such as these scanners can be influenced by such factors. The fact that subsequent oral temps were normal and she tested negative for ebola twice is certainly indicative that the patient was never febrile.
 
  • #682
Maybe, but we don't know that. Could it be early treatment? Nina Pham was in the hospital within 90 minutes of noticing a fever. Is it survivor plasma (Mr. Duncan unfortunately didn't receive it)? Combination of early treatment, plasma, anti-virals? Other unknown factors?

Agreed. The amount of virus topic was presented by a doctor on CNN (earlier today) stating the idea of virus amount needs exploration. Considering the number of infected people each medical worker is exposed to on a daily basis it is common sense to think there'd be increased odds of infection, but, it only takes one person. Maybe in West Africa the medical professionals are being exposed to later stages of the disease too. One would think, the numbers and exposures would increase their odds. Yet Gitana posted the stats indicate otherwise, probably because they use strict protocols in West Africa. There isn't much to compare though, right?

Heck, I know nothing - just trying to repeat what I think I've heard.
 
  • #683
Today, during the press conference when Amber was released, doctor speculated that they got over Ebola quickly because both of them were young (Amber and Nina) and possibly got a small dose of virus because they were using PPE.
Dr. Spencer seems to be having a harder time of it, even though he is also young. And he got into the hospital quickly. So maybe he got a higher dose of virus?

Thanks for the source, this is what I heard too!
 
  • #684
Wow. This post makes me very sad. These people are risking their lives to go help people in a living hell, in order to prevent spread of the disease and to save lives. Yet they are simply doing it to "pad their resumes"?

I'm quite saddened by that accusation. MSF are liars and the health care workers from the west going to fight a deadly disease are doing so for "personal gain"? Wow.

I have a different view. I say God bless these heroes. I have never in my life approached the courage and selflessness it takes to risk everything to help others in such an incredible manner. This is what Jesus taught. Precisely what they are doing. I can only hope that one day I can come even a tad bit close to being the type of person these health aid workers and others over there fighting to give assistance, are.

The world is a more beautiful place, IMO, because of those whiners.

MSF/Doctors Without Borders are heroes most definitely. Without their sacrifice to assist the less fortunate, lives would be lost. They have something upwards of 600 quarantined beds in affected nations. How many do we have? I agree, the world is much more beautiful with these selfless doctors and healthcare/disease studying workers in it.
 
  • #685
(modsnip)

I think they want HCW with exposure to ebola patients to be quarantined regardless of whether or not they have a fever. Otherwise she would have been released the minute her core temp and ebola test was negative. This also seems to be what many citizens want-quarantine any HCW with ebola exposure because they could at any time become symptomatic. In fact, the poster whose post I quoted stated exactly that-quarantine HCW with recent exposure to ebola patients regardless of fever status because they could become a symptomatic shortly after leaving the airport. This is a widely held opinion, so I don't get how that is so surprising to you.
 
  • #686
http://www.pressherald.com/2014/10/...tine-wont-immediately-return-to-ft-kent-home/

Posted 11:22 AM
Updated 31 mins ago

Maine might seek court order if nurse doesn’t comply with Ebola quarantine

The LePage administration and the Maine Centers for Disease Control and Prevention did not answer questions on Tuesday, but earlier this afternoon relayed a message through Northern Maine Medical Center in Fort Kent that Hickox had agreed to a quarantine.

But Hickox’s attorney, Steven Lyman, told the Associated Press on Tuesday that she was not in a quarantine.
 
  • #687
MSF/Doctors Without Borders are heroes most definitely. Without their sacrifice to assist the less fortunate, lives would be lost. They have something upwards of 600 quarantined beds in affected nations. How many do we have? I agree, the world is much more beautiful with these selfless doctors and healthcare/disease studying workers in it.

Doctors Without Borders has treated 3,200 confirmed cases of Ebola this year. This figure is higher than the combined total of all prior outbreaks of the disease. If any organization on Earth has experience dealing with this virus, they do.
 
  • #688
MSF/Doctors Without Borders are heroes most definitely. Without their sacrifice to assist the less fortunate, lives would be lost. They have something upwards of 600 quarantined beds in affected nations. How many do we have? I agree, the world is much more beautiful with these selfless doctors and healthcare/disease studying workers in it.

Well said. It never occurred to me until today that there are those who suspect that their motives are not so pure and are doing this for personal gain rather than/perhaps in addition to altruism.

As a nurse, I could pad my resume with far less risk to my life than going to Africa to work with ebola patients.
 
  • #689
While I do think we needed to take better precautionary measures, especially considering we were learning as we went along, I believe a 21 day mandatory quarantine is overkill. Ebola has been traced back hundreds of years, it was only given a name when it was discovered in the 70's. Doctors Without Borders has been operating since the early 70's. DW/OB MSF WHO CDC - all have been assisting Ebola stricken persons for many years and there was never a quarantine...and there was never an outbreak here either...so why enforce a 21 day mandatory quarantine now when these good doctors are only doing the same exact thing they've been doing? I'm not saying no quarantine at all, just that 21 days seems excessive. These healthcare workers travel back & forth alot. I understand this outbreak is worse, much worse, but the circumstance of the disease hasn't changed. It's just as deadly now as it was years ago. We've learned that skin shouldn't be exposed at all now so healthcare workers are even more protected now - which helps prevent the disease from spreading. So more protection, more medicine, more education, more money - yet stricter rules on those returning?

I think we need to find a balance, a well informed educated balance to deal with this should it become something bigger here...which I'm really not seeing. Sierra Leone is a third world nation. Did everybody see the shanty Dustin was living in before he came here? Then consider exactly how many people were living there... It's pretty obvious that someone living there so near to someone stricken with Ebola would get it as well. That's a definite. Whereas here, we have running hot and cold water, private bathrooms that empty into a sewer, water filtration systems, washers to properly launder clothing and bed sheets, stoves and ovens to properly cook our food. The list goes on. Sure people can improvise but with all due respect, Ebola is mostly in the areas of despair, poor, hungry, populated areas. That's why it spread so fast there.

I think the first step is for the misinformation to cease. If the CDC didn't come out talking nonsense, maybe the public wouldn't have lost respect. That's just my honest opinion. I think people need the truth, it's human nature to search for truth. So when an entity like the CDC says something that the public easily finds scientific backup on which trumps the CDC's own words, well quite frankly it causes hysteria bc people lose faith in those that are supposed to protect. It's better to just say the whole truth then to gloss something over if there's only minimal risk. I believe that if people respect an entity, they will trust that same entity to protect them. When respect is lost, fear settles in. It's only human nature.
 
  • #690
  • #691
This whole thing has become more than stupid. Common Sense says if you were in Africa, directly involved with people who have Ebola..... And you come back to the US..... SELF Quarantine for 21 days to protect everyone else. What am I missing? :waitasec:
 
  • #692
This whole thing has become more than stupid. Common Sense says if you were in Africa, directly involved with people who have Ebola..... And you come back to the US..... SELF Quarantine for 21 days to protect everyone else. What am I missing? :waitasec:

As far as I know, you're not missing ANYTHING except "self-quarantine" doesn't work. This is evidenced by patient zero's family breaking quarantine and then Dr. Nancy Snyderman and her NBC crew also breaking self-quarantine protocols.

I will continue to applaud those states who exercise their rights to enact their own measures against possible spread of this killer disease.
 
  • #693
(modsnip)

I think they want HCW with exposure to ebola patients to be quarantined regardless of whether or not they have a fever. Otherwise she would have been released the minute her core temp and ebola test was negative. This also seems to be what many citizens want-quarantine any HCW with ebola exposure because they could at any time become symptomatic. In fact, the poster whose post I quoted stated exactly that-quarantine HCW with recent exposure to ebola patients regardless of fever status because they could become a symptomatic shortly after leaving the airport. This is a widely held opinion, so I don't get how that is so surprising to you.

It appears you quote my post. You said many citizen want-quarantine any HCW with ebola exposure because they could at any time become symptomatic. Your statement, as it refers to me, is only partially accurate. It is not what I want, it’s what I feel in my heart and mind is the right thing to do to protect the public. Sorry, if someone is incapable of understanding that. So yes, under the circumstances, I strongly feel that HCW who have treated Ebola victims should be under mandatory quarantine. The “closing the barn door after the horse has escaped” position of the CDC and government is not at all acceptable IMO.
 
  • #694
I would have to conclude, in light of the fact that 5 airports that suddenly started with thermometers aimed somewhere on folks foreheads that there are no uniform (Breathalyzer) standards as it relates to margins of error.

Since it was implemented so quickly I doubt there was any instruction given. Would there be a difference if one person is aiming the thing from 18 inches away compared to 6 inches?

Its winter, would there be a difference in skin temperature if the outside ambient temperature, at one airport WA 28 degrees, and the ambient temperature inside that airport is 62 as opposed to an an outside ambian temperature of 89 degrees and inside being being 78?

would there be an irreverent reading if a passenger was running late and just ran, lugging carry on baggage to the other end of an airport. ?

Would there be a different reading if someone went to freshen up and washed their face before getting in line?

Would the last time someone ate influence body temperature?. Would caffine influence body temperature?

Alcohol? Would a smokers temperature be influenced (constrict) blood vessels? Would fatigue impact readings?

Would ones medications influence readings? Would emotional state influence temperature?

Stress? How does this system account for variance in norms?

Would a thermometer that is designed to take a persons temperature be influenced by being aimed at 800 people an hour?

And we are counting on this IMO nonsense as a benchmark screening for Ebola? To determine locking people up againist there will? Silly IMO................meaningless............

HTTP://cannibalization/showroom/infrared-thermometer-professionalization
.http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/10/us-thermometers-idUSPAR05104120070810
HTTP://electromechanical/indexing?/Caregiver% EYE-Professional-Infrared – Thermometer/&PG=CTL&CS=HOM&FN=Product Detail&PID=25494&sex=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_temperature
HTTP://technician-tool.com/355TE220...C4AmA&ed_id=VE6vMwAABSF7vruA:20141027204643:s

Hot flashes can raise the body temperature by 6 degrees celcius. I'd be thrown into quarantine in a hot flash!

http://www.breastcancer.org/tips/menopausal/facing/hot_flashes
 
  • #695
…...and IMO if the media had relentlessly highlighted that for months and months (and currently) over there are cultural rituals which include a lot of direct hands on touching and (when victims are oozing virus at the highest rate). holding the dead. In addition there burial notions are widely problematic as it relates to getting into a problem over there.

IMO that is huge-- as is the living conditions as it relates to Ebola.

I hope she does not follow that illegal order to stay in prison in her own home after risking her life. She is a health professional if she started to feel ill she would report. The media keeps playing this like these people are just being defiant totally disregarding that these are pros, have seen the devastating illness in action. These folks also know the immense impact quick treatment has on outcome. Athens person has a personal investment , when feeling ill, coming from there to get themselves help. Media keeps playing like folks are resistant to getting help IF NEEDED!


These folks do not need to be baby sat they know more than the folks that are (as evidenced by what happened) making up half as# rules every 18 hours that have nothing to do with Ebola – its election time, and everyone is screaming lock folks The people that are making these choices decide how much money to spend on traffic lights, or highways.

If they are using the test to lock people up then they should use the test to open the cell door --- having it both ways makes even less sense. A lot less sense! Only a govt official can come up with that kind of logic. It makes no sense. You need chemo if tests show you have cancer, AND you need chemo if tests show you are cancer free. WTH is that??

=We do not (hypothetically) incarcerate Americans without some sort of process.

=We do not commit the mentally ill to long term placement without process.

=We do not (supposedly) use uncalibrated breathalyzers in accusing someone of driving impaired. There are testing standards.

=We do not allow LE to block egress from our homes. Reminds me of the back of the bus.

We certainly do not do the same thing they did to poor Bentley – locking her up – supposedly for 21 days, without running water, and toilet that does flush, is nothing short of repulsive IMO. Bentley, I hope had his cage changed.

Land of the free home of the brave..

Now, if, from day one, what the majority of experts have clearly stated – it is not transmittable until viral loads are high enough to shed, has proven to not be the norm – there may be a justifiable reason to implement some strategies for jailing Americans in there home. Incarcerating innocent (negative tests) –is a problem in my opinion.

And I do think they will proceed - and I believe they will win a cavil rights case – govt has authority to do some stuff when danger is clear and cut.

It is vital to remember the following, its a wonderfully staggering fact:
Outside of Africa, on the planet, 4 human beings have died from the Ebola virus

IMO this hardly an uncontrollable entity. It has been controlled in western countries and shall continue to be IMO

and all the madness is directly related to the media hunger to increase the rates on their ads --it is reprehensible




Agreed. The amount of virus topic was presented by a doctor on CNN (earlier today) stating the idea of virus amount needs exploration. Considering the number of infected people each medical worker is exposed to on a daily basis it is common sense to think there'd be increased odds of infection, but, it only takes one person. Maybe in West Africa the medical professionals are being exposed to later stages of the disease too. One would think, the numbers and exposures would increase their odds. Yet Gitana posted the stats indicate otherwise, probably because they use strict protocols in West Africa. There isn't much to compare though, right?

Heck, I know nothing - just trying to repeat what I think I've heard.
 
  • #696
  • #697
Well said. It never occurred to me until today that there are those who suspect that their motives are not so pure and are doing this for personal gain rather than/perhaps in addition to altruism.

As a nurse, I could pad my resume with far less risk to my life than going to Africa to work with ebola patients.

While its a subject for an entirely different forum, I have to ask: Does true altruism in fact exist?

Surely giving without any expectation in monetary return has other pay offs although I understand that they are compensated well.
Most often I hear that its something " different" and provides for an opportunity to see another part of the world and, gain new experiences.
Its an opportunity to help less fortunate peoples- yes , but that makes us feel good for having done so, right?
and, if we're doing so for Jesus, does it reserve a spot for us in heaven?
Perhaps a passion for research and to find a cure, improve survival rates etc... - a satisfaction intellectually.
Maybe we identify with a medical role or humanitarian or as part of a global village?
sense of duty and obligation: to stop it at its source.

I agree that the work is noble, heroic and, not for the faint of heart. For many it very well may be selfless but for others it may not be- doesn't matter!!!! IT'S IMPORTANT WORK and IT'S GETTING DONE! I don't care how whoever happened to be there arrived there and I'm grateful those unfortunate people have help they so desperately need.

I do know that I am in awe of those who recount their experiences.
and, you'd have to do a lot to " pad your resume" in order to outshine a tour with " doctors without borders"
 
  • #698
As far as I know, you're not missing ANYTHING except "self-quarantine" doesn't work. This is evidenced by patient zero's family breaking quarantine and then Dr. Nancy Snyderman and her NBC crew also breaking self-quarantine protocols.

I will continue to applaud those states who exercise their rights to enact their own measures against possible spread of this killer disease.

Well said. The last I heard there were 8 states that are enacting their own measures.
 
  • #699
Well said. The last I heard there were 8 states that are enacting their own measures.

I do support quarantine or at least stricter self-monitoring. Just checking temperature twice a day hardly seems enough.
Someone can check it in the morning, go out in public. What if it spikes when this person is around numerous people?
What if that someone starts vomiting or gets a nose bleed?
Seems way too risky.
And self-monitoring mostly relies on people developing fever. Yet some Ebola patients don't even develop fever. Also, Dr. Spencer had fatigue for several days (when he was out in public) prior to getting fever. What was his viral load at that time? Nobody knows. How can they say for certain he was not infectious prior to getting fever?
 
  • #700
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
55
Guests online
2,029
Total visitors
2,084

Forum statistics

Threads
633,056
Messages
18,635,661
Members
243,392
Latest member
F-Stuart-Milburn
Back
Top