Einstein: Bible Is 'Primitive, Pretty Childish'

[reb]

{sounds to me like they believed in religion, and what God could do for their country. It's unfortunate now that the state and religion can't be combined}<well, sounds="" to="" me="" like="" they="" believed="" in="" what="" god="" could="" do="" for="" their="" country.="" it="" s="" unfortunate="" now="" that="" the="" state="" and="" religion="" can="" t="" be="" combined=""><well, sounds="" to="" me="" like="" they="" believed="" in="" what="" god="" could="" do="" for="" their="" country.="" it="" s="" unfortunate="" now="" that="" the="" state="" and="" religion="" can="" t="" be="" combined.="">

blondiekatz-- actually,, we are QUITE fortunate. remember 'manifest destiny'.. where our forefathers also believed that god wanted us to conquer, kill, rape, pillage, colonize, and plunder,, etc. (how convenient,, that this is what god wanted too! wow, what a coincidence~!!)

that (what you said) is under the assumption that every believes in a all-knowing, all-seeing puppetmaster/god, and not everyone does. that is why we have freedom OF as well as freedom FROM religion. that's one of the things that makes this country great... that we have kept religion and state separate. and it should most certainly stay that way. if i wanted religion and state mixed- i'd move to a muslim country where they'll shoot me for not covering my face in public.

and for anyone who says 'yes but look at what's happened to our nation since we got away from god'-- well, remember that correlation does not imply causation. yes it does appear that the masses are getting dumber, crazier, less civilized, and things are becoming more chaotic and decadent every day. but that doesn't mean it was caused by americans becoming less superstitious/religious, in the christian sense. there's plenty of other things that have caused that. (for starters: overpopulation with no end in sight, overcrowding, environmental degradation, spending more funding on defense than schooling, greed, breakdown of extended family unit/tribe, etc...)
</well,></well,>

 

[gaia227]

People must be careful with their sources. The websites posted 'proving' Einstein was wrong about many things include; einsteinwrong.com, the Christian Science Monitor, Brother Jonathan's Gazzette. These sites are obviously promoting a certain ideology and the are going to manipulate and scew words, take things out of context, etc in order to support their viewpoint. The site provided regarding the founding fathers religiousity is a ministry site and the author of this site has grossly manipulated and conveniently left out words, rearranged quotes in order to support his viewpoint. He also quotes people from the Mayflower......these people had nothing to do with the founding fathers and the tenents this country was founded on. It is completely irrevelant.

Regarding Einstein and trying to prove he was wrong. It is akward to use the terms right and wrong when regarding science. Science is based on theories. These theories are tested and tested and tested and the scientist will claim how likely or unlikely that theory is based on the results of these test and the information gathered. Science is not a stagnent subject. It is a constant ebb and flow. With the advancements in technology, new findings, new people coming into the arena with new ideas, theories and even the scientific laws are constantly being expanded upon, constantly changing, constantly being updated. So to say that things Einstein said 60 years ago are wrong is a little misleading. It is pretty well acknowledged that Einstein was a brillant man and a brillant scientist.

Regarding the founding fathers; it is pretty sad that a lot of Americans seem to know very little or understand very little of what the founding fathers wanted for this country. Many of the FF called themselves deists i.e Jefferson and Franklin. Adams called himself a Unitarian. They were religious men but they were also men who questioned things and who did not take the bible or Christianity at face value. They questioned things, they subscribed to some of the tenents of Christianity and didn't to others. One thing is very clear; despite their own religious views the FF wanted this country to be based on the notion of separation of church and state. They did not want this country to be based on Christianity or any other religon for that matter. If they did then they certainly would have included this in the Consitution and the Declaration of Independence. There is no mention of God, Jesus, the Bible in either. The only mention of religion is to state that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religon' and the only other mention of religion is to state: 'no religion test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust.'

Let their words speak for themselves:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the World, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world . . . . The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind . . . to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." [SIZE=-1]- Thomas Jefferson[/SIZE] [SIZE=-2](letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787[/SIZE]

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." [SIZE=-1]- Thomas Paine [/SIZE][SIZE=-2](The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)[/SIZE]

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."[SIZE=-1]- Thomas Paine[/SIZE] [SIZE=-2](The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)[/SIZE]

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' [SIZE=-1]- James Madison[/SIZE] [SIZE=-2](Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)[/SIZE]

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." [SIZE=-2]- (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)[/SIZE]

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." [SIZE=-1]- Thomas Jefferson [/SIZE][SIZE=-2](Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)[/SIZE]

The words of the FF speak for themselves. Their own autobiographies, letters written to friends/family, the very wording of the Treaty of Tripoli, the Constitution, Declaration of Independence show their own religiosity, their willingness to question certain aspects of religion and their believe that this country should be a secular one with emphasis on separation of church and state. No doubt the FF looked at countries like the mother country, England, and the strict religious leadership and how the integration of church and state resulted in empowering the leadership to inflict persecution on it's citizens and violate their civil liberties. The FF did not want this for our country and rightly so. They wanted there to be freedom of religion so everyone could freely observe whichever religion they chose without fearing retribution. That doesn't seem so bad, does it? In order to ensure that freedom they of course have to enforce a separation of church and state. You cannot have the state using religion to govern and religion to dictate the laws of the country yet have freedom of religion. It is an oxymoron.
Even our presidents seem to be grossly misinformed regarding the founding of this country. Bush Sr, replied when asked, that atheists are not US citizens, are not patriots because this is one nation under god. If Bush did about five minutes of research he would learn that the pledge of allegience was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy who was a Socialst. Bellamy was also a Baptist minister but was forced to resign because of his controversial Socialist views and when he gave a speech called 'Jesus the Socialist' that was the icing on the cake and he resigned. Most importantly, the phrase 'one nation under God' was not in the original pledge of allegience. It was added in the 1950's when Congress passed a trifecta of religious statement in the wake of the red scare They felt if they could promote God as a national symbol then it would stop Americans from sympathisizing to the Communist 'menace.' Congress passed the amendment to the pledge, added 'In God we Trust' to all currency and changed E Pluribus Unum to 'In God we Trust.'
My point is how easy it is for things to get lost in translation in the passing of time through history. With a little research of pretty basic US History it is pretty easy to get a clear picture of the FF visions for this country and the obvious fact that they did not want this country to be founded upon the tenents of Christianity or any other religion.

Why is so bad to think this country was founded as a secular one? That has allowed us to have many of the freedoms we have. It has ensure that US citizens have the freedom to practice any religion of their choosing or not practicing on at all. It was meant to ensure that the state could not use the tenents of a certain religion when making laws, enforcing laws or force that religion on it's citizens through public forums, like school.

Why does it matter what Einstein thought about the Bible? Who cares. He is one man. I can almost assure you that Einstein probably felt that same way about all religion and religious text. To attack his findings as a scientist because of his views on your religious text seems ....well pretty childish.

Sources used: I made a strong effort to use non-biased sources. I could have gone to atheist websites and evolution sites to gather information but that would not support my points because it would be so steeped with bias information that it would become irrevelant. It would be the same as using religious websites to support the founding fathers were Christians and Einstein was wrong.....


http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week844/cover.html

http://altreligion.about.com/library/texts/bl_foundersquotes.htm

http://www.clipmarks.com/clipmark/4CA3F5B8-6F3C-4838-85E0-D573DE003817/

http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2007/02/the-us-founding-fathers-their-religious-beliefs/

 

[reb]

THANK YOU gaia!!!! :clap::clap::clap:

you've really done your homework.... thanks for the enlightenment... !

btw i would have been perfectly happy if they stuck with E Pluribus Unum as our official motto. 'Out of Many, One' certainly describes a sense of unity without having to bring religion/superstition into it.
ahhhhh... life in the new dark ages... gotta love it.

 

[christine2448]

Regarding the founding fathers; it is pretty sad that a lot of Americans seem to know very little or understand very little of what the founding fathers wanted for this country. Many of the FF called themselves deists i.e Jefferson and Franklin.

I was not debating the separation of church and state, I was debating the fact that a poster said our founding fathers were not religious, I disagree... Let their words speak for themselves...Jefferson and Franklin.

Franklin's own words, "God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel&#8221; &#8211;Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

&#8220;In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered&#8230; do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?&#8221; [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."


Jefferson's own words &#8220; The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.&#8221;
&#8220;Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.&#8221;
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
&#8220;God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.&#8221; (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson&#8217;s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

And just a few other facts you might find interesting:

Liberty Bell Inscription:
&#8220; Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof&#8221; [Leviticus 25:10]

Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
&#8226; &#8220;Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea&#8221; &#8211;Ben Franklin

&#8226; &#8220;The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.&#8221; --Thomas Jefferson
On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was: " Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
&#8226; At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
&#8220;For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.&#8221;​

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
&#8226; "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."


I better get back OnT..forgive me

Einstien, I agree about the right and wrong and science ect...he was an amazing man, I just love God and think he is wrong about that, that's all. My posting his wrongs was just saying, look he's been wrong before. BTW, I wonder how he is enjoying his time in eternity??

 

[gaia227]

Then we agree. I was not trying to say the FF were not religious men; they were. This country's roots are ones that are securely rooted in religious ideology. I was only saying that they were not all exclusively Christian and they wanted freedom of religion to be recognized and to do so they the separation of church and state would have to implemented. I wasn't meaning to attack you (well, I wasn't trying to attack anyone) specifically but I can obviously see how it may have been perceived that way. I was addressing the issue as a whole and you were the only one who had put up sources. I think we could literally spend days quoting the FF thoughts on religion.

Using the example of the Deleware Constitution I posted the preamble which I think perfectly supports both of our points:

From the Preamble to the Constitution of Deleware:
PREAMBLE
Through Divine goodness, all men have by nature the rights of worshiping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences, of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring and protecting reputation and property, and in general of obtaining objects suitable to their condition, without injury by one to another; and as these rights are essential to their welfare, for due exercise thereof, power is inherent in them; and therefore all just authority in the institutions of political society is derived from the people, and established with their consent, to advance their happiness; and they may for this end, as circumstances require, from time to time, alter their Constitution of government.

I think I am the one guilty of going way of topic here. Sorry mods!

Go Einstein!

 

[christine2448]

gaia227 :blowkiss:

This is what it is about.