Elisa Lam - What Happened?

[2Hip2BSquare]

Why wasn't the report released until almost 6 months after her death and the initial autopsies (yes they had multiple techs seemingly arguing over her COD it seemed by the way the Report read with things like the manner of death crossed out and resigned by the COD ...

It seems to me imo that some wanted to take her death seriously while others just wanted to rush through and get on to the next backlogged patient.

Ive never seen an autopsy report with so much here-say and redactions.

Here's an ie:

 

[Nickfalzone]

Why wasn't the report released until almost 6 months after her death and the initial autopsies (yes they had multiple techs seemingly arguing over her COD it seemed by the way the Report read with things like the manner of death crossed out and resigned by the COD ...

It seems to me imo that some wanted to take her death seriously while others just wanted to rush through and get on to the next backlogged patient.

Ive never seen an autopsy report with so much here-say and redactions.

Here's an ie:

View attachment 37209

I still say that if you're going to conclude "accidental death", you should have some evidence to back that up. Not "she might have been bipolar", but actual real, concrete evidence. In this case "Could not be determined" would have been the correct summation of their findings. Again, unless there are details in this case which have not been made public.

 

[Nickfalzone]

The law of physics absolutely do not tell me that someone could carry a not dead yet (Elisa drowned) up the ladder. People can do this. Not everyone. But, such people exist. Soldiers pick up and carry grown men loaded with gear. Thet carry then over rough terrain while under fire. A little lady like Elisa would be a snap, ladder or not. Also, humans can use tools to accomplish tasks. We do not know how this was accomplished, but I believe it was.

I would rather believe in terrible accident because murder is THE WORST. I have lost people I love in every way possible. Murder is the worst. So, if I see proof Elisa just stumbled into the tank for who knows what reason, I will be relieved for her.

Now, the 'Drive pilgrimage'. I think it's likely Elisa decided to visit some sites this movie, starring her favorite actor Ryan Gosling, was filmed. People might visit those sites and see if anyone remembers her. If they wanted to do some sleuthing IRL that wouldn't grieve her friends and family more. Be really nice and professional, not pushy. Some places there will be no one to speak to, I'm sure. But, still. I think she might have done this since she had friends who also liked this movie and R.G. So, it'd be really cool for her blog.

ETA I'm not saying a soldier did it, btw. This is just a well known example of what someone can do.

I work in a hospital, and without getting into details, I can tell you that carrying a body Elisa's size and weight up a ladder would absolutely not be impossible. I and many of my co-workers would be able to do this, including with taller and heavier people. A reasonably well-built 20-40 yr old man would not have any problem with this.

 

[Userid]

However, I must say, if the lid was on that tank then Elisa had some help having an 'accident' because it lifts off. It is not hinged. I found a photo one of the Chinese investigators took that showed it on the tank (after Elisa was discovered, but before ChelleBelle's photo which shows the tanks finally have locks.. So it shows it has a handle and lifts off). And there are photos aplenty with it off showing NO hinges. No gust of wind could possible close it because to remove it, you take it off and set it aside. (ETA, see these photos in post 848 in the 3rd E.L. thread, now locked).

Granted, someone could have found it off and sitting out on its own and then returned it to its rightful place on the tank if it had been left off. I guess the maintenance man could say how he found it, but someone could've done that before he ever got there. IMO, that would be the murderer. BUT, it could be another person.

These lids continue to be mystery then. In this photo, on the other tank, it looks like there is clearly an attachment connecting the lid -- it's flipped open and placed right next to the opening. If it wasn't attached, I have a hard time believing someone took it off, and placed it meticulously next to the opening to where it would line up with it exactly, on its bottom-side up nonetheless.

http://tieryas.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/elisa03.jpg?w=812
(4th image down when you scroll down)

I guess my question would be: why would one lid on one tank have an attachment, but not the others?

Could you post a link to the Chinese photo? Was it taken after Elisa's body was found? If so, the police could've simply disconnected the hatch in order to remove the lid, as they were certainly walking on the top of the tank when retrieving the body.

I also find the pipe that runs from Elisa's tank to the other (on the left) interesting in that, if all the tanks indeed did have a connecting hatch, and if that lid opened toward that pipe, the pipe could've almost propped the lid in an elevated position (hope that makes sense).

 

[Userid]

One of the major questions that has never

I still, for the life of me, cannot imagine that even a psychotic Elisa would walk her way up to the roof, find the water tanks, go to the least accessible one, step up a rickety ladder, and squeeze herself in the top. How would she even know if it was a freshwater/cool tank and she wasn't stepping into a hot water heater or something. I know, I know, mental illness can cause all kinds of irrational choices, but with my knowledge of psychology/psychiatry (which is fairly immense) I have a great deal of difficulty pinning this death as an "accidental misadventure". I really cannot imagine that is what ultimately led to her being dead in the tank. I know that mysterious deaths are not always solved, but this one just seems to be completely lacking in detail of what detective work was done.

Actually, in my opinion, it would've been the most accessible if she climbed the red ladder to the roof of the storage room. All you'd have to do to access the top of the tank would be to lower yourself (feet first, reversed to where your stomach would be facing the storage room) down from the edge of the roof on the storage room onto the top of the tank -- however, admittedly, that is based without the knowledge of the length between the edge of the storage room roof to the top of the water tank. From photos, it doesn't seem entirely far fetched for an average-height (6 ft.) person. Elisa may have been a few inches shorter, but still capable even so in my opinion.

If she was bold enough to access the roof in general, and climb that red ladder to access the highest point of the roof, she would've been bold enough to lower herself down to the tank -- especially if she accessed the roof via the fire escape (I don't think she did though; I think the shoddy alarm for the roof door didn't go off, just like it didn't for the lady in the other thread who visited it herself).

 

[Nickfalzone]

One thing that stood out to me in your picture of the tanks is how the only tank with a ladder is the one she entered. I've seen this in other pics as well, but it stood out to me in this one. Makes me wonder if she chose that tank (if she did) because there was a ladder in front which indicated it would be the best one to enter. Now the thought of even a crazy Elisa walking up to the rooftop and crawling into a large tank (of which she did not know if it was water, hot water, dirty water, etc..) seems far-fetched to me. But putting myself in her shoes, so to speak, if I was in the middle of a major anxiety attack (due to let's say not having a bathroom available) she could have considered going up to the roof and crawling in the tank because she was so desperate to wash or soak in water. Again, this is farfetched because I don't think that she would reasonably have known what was even in that tank, but for some reason the ladder next to that tank makes it stand out, to me, as the most accessible one to get into.

 

[Userid]

^^ Yes -- I agree it is far-fetched. I made mention of the fact in another thread that would've been pitch black inside that tank at night. Why would she get into a tank like that without having the slightest idea what was in it? That's the thing though -- we'll never know if she knew there was water in there or not. Perhaps she would've thrown something into the hole to see/confirm what she thought was in there -- like her watch?

Something else I noticed about the tanks -- the 2 on the left seem to differ from the 2 on the right, slightly. The 2 on the left have those dots around the perimeter of the top and that go into the middle of the tanks, whereas the 2 on the right have flat tops without dots. This indicates that the tops of the 2 on the left may have been slightly "domed" -- which would be another indication as to why she would've chosen the one on the right of the photo (because of its flat surface, and it's proximity to the edge of the storage room's roof).

Also, the latches on the two on the left are in the same spots on the water tanks: somewhat in the middle. The latches on the two on the right are in the same spots, respectively, as well.

This confirms to me, at least, that the tank Elisa was found in did have a connecting latch, since it's "sister" tank clearly has one in the photo I pasted and since it is the same tank.

Also, if you rotate the sister tank (the one at the top right of the photo) clockwise to match Elisa's tank, the latch on Elisa's tank would indeed open next to the pipe that connects both tanks on the left -- please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[December]

I'm on my phone so I don't know how to direct link.

But, the photos I'm talking about are post 848 in the 3rd E.L. thread (now locked).

The Chinese photo only shows the lid on after the fact, but before padlocks were added (lid is closed). So you can at least see how the closed lid looks prior to padlocks that have been added recently.

The photo with it open has the fireman in it so it might be a U.S. media photo. It is in the same post.

It is possible those tanks do not match. The tanks wear out over time from what I've read. So, while of similar design, they may not be all alike. However, they all appear to be fairly old. But, who can say. Well, the hotel maintenance supervisor of 30 years could say if the tanks are all exactly alike. I doubt he will tell us, but that would be a person who would know.

 

[December]

I have no doubt there was debate over the C.O.D. There isn't good evidence for how she got in this tank because the dogs did not trace her to the tank. I know the dogs aren't perfect, but Oriah says if Elisa was out on the roof walking the dogs ought to have found this. Yes, maybe the dogs somehow missed her, but this is something the M.E. has to consider.

A lot of things in the case come back to the fact there isn't even a clear picture of how she got to and in the tank no matter if she went there on her own or if someone took her or even if someone carried her. Yet, there she was.

I don't know why the found 'accidental' rather than undetermined, honestly. Maybe the police report will reveal that, I don't know.

 

[Nickfalzone]

I'm on my phone so I don't know how to direct link.

But, the photos I'm talking about are post 848 in the 3rd E.L. thread (now locked).

The Chinese photo only shows the lid on after the fact, but before padlocks were added (lid is closed). So you can at least see how the closed lid looks prior to padlocks that have been added recently.

The photo with it open has the fireman in it so it might be a U.S. media photo. It is in the same post.

It is possible those tanks do not match. The tanks wear out over time from what I've read. So, while of similar design, they may not be all alike. However, they all appear to be fairly old. But, who can say. Well, the hotel maintenance supervisor of 30 years could say if the tanks are all exactly alike. I doubt he will tell us, but that would be a person who would know.

Far be it from me to point at suspects, but it still bothers me that she most likely had no idea a.) the water tank was on the roof b.) that it was a water tank c.) that she would willingly climb up and squeeze her body through that tiny hatch. I feel like I'm a relatively intelligent individual, with many more years of life experience than Elisa, and I knew next to nothing about rooftop water tanks until this story came out. Unless someone tipped her off at the hotel, or she had become familiar with water tanks out in Canada, I just do not see how she would assume that the tank was what it turned out to be.

 

[December]

I will say I understand that it's not easy to prove an accident.

But, the fact is, a lot of evidence was long gone when they found Elisa. Her nails had been soaking in water for many days.

As for video, there are barely any cameras in the hotel. So, if you don't do something in the lobby or elevator, there is a good chance it will not be caught on camera. I know the police said they had a lot of footage, but that would include the elevator tapes (which mostly won't be Elisa) for four days. And the lobbies for four days (again, mostly not Elisa). They probably do have tapes of her that also had other people in them, but that doesn't mean those tapes are particularly enlightening.

Also, some of the people who stay at Cecil Hotel may not be madly in love with the LAPD because the LAPD placed them in jail at some point. So, we cannot assume they would dutifully report anything to the police. Then there's the fact that this hotel is said to be noisy.

Now, I will say I do think it is possible that it is an accident in this way... Elisa and someone were goofing around and somehow she wound up in the tank. And died pretty quickly (I don't know how, maybe the shock of cold water stunned her and she gasped in a bunch of water). Then, this person panicked and split fearing they'd be charged with murder when they didn't kill her. That is still a crime, I realize, but an unintentional one. There is a problem with that though and that is there should be enough of her scent that the dogs would've followed it to the tank.

I still just do not know what happened to her. But, I have a really bad, sick feeling about it. I have actually spent some time trying to figure out how it could be an accident.

I'm just not sold on 'psychotic break'. I know some mental health professionals see it that way, but I don't know if that is possible based on the elevator video. She may have just been acting weird because she was bored and goofing around. Now, if it turns out the police found other evidence BESIDES the video to prove that, then I will think about it some more.

 

[December]

My fiance has a theory... it is partly based on the medication Elisa is known to take (which her tox screen proves she was dutifully taking).

First the drugs, he says it's not as many things as it looks like because some are the same thing. He says this is probably the doctor trying to get a very specific dose into Elisa and it's not that unusual to do it this way. He says the seizure medicine is really the only unusual one she has. One of her medications does have the side effect of seizures (this is important later). He says the only other unusual thing is her anti depressant dose is very high for her size. So, he thinks that is what is causing her behavior in the elevator because it would make her jittery a bit (but, in her right head). Elisa described herself as boisterous and he said that is consistent with such a high dose. I didn't tell him, but we also have evidence that in the Toronto hostel she was always 'bouncing around'. So, basically, that's happening in the elevator video.

He says some of her medications take about four months to really make any difference, but if she'd been taking them nine months she should be used to the effects. But, the medications are very carefully balanced and anything else could throw them off... the dexedrine could have done it, a small amount of alcohol could've done it, the sinutab could've done it. (P.S. my friend had seizures and could not take any OTC cold remedies, ever ever. Her doctors were adamant about this.) It wouldn't make her act weird. It'd make her sick or have a seizure or pass out. (This is just his opinion, he's not a doctor.)

He thinks the elevator thing shows her just waiting for someone. She is excited at first. Then she gets frustrated because the guy isn't coming. When she jumps out, she thinks it is him. But it is some random person. Then at the end, the person arrives and she goes off with him. (This is his opinion. IDK.)

He thinks maybe this is one of her L.A. meetups. So, Elisa was doing something mildly naughty by sneaking him in so they could goof around in the hotel where he is not staying. But, it is possible he knows about the hotel through prior experience.

Anyway, they wind up on the roof. Maybe via a weird way because they're running around exploring. (To explain about the dogs.) They wind up near the tanks. Then something goes wrong with Elisa. She might be in the tank at this time. The guy thinks she's dead. He grabs her stuff and throws it in after her and goes home. Which my fiance hastens to add that any guy who'd do that is scum and belongs in jail for just leaving her. He thinks it is an older guy (relative to 21 y.o. Elisa.. so, not an old man) because he hasn't told anyone and probably won't.

Anyway, that he thinks pretty much fits the evidence.

 

[Userid]

I've been trying to go over every way this could've been an accident. Here's one way:

It's relatively late and Elisa grows bored. She's unable to sleep. The TV selection (I imagine) is extremely limited; she's in a city where she doesn't know anyone; and even though it's not really "late-late," it's still too late to roam the city for a tourist girl who knows next to nothing about her surroundings. So she begins to explore the hotel, going to random floors and walking around (I've actually done this before with a friend). At first, perhaps she decides to take the stairs, roaming up from floor to floor. When she's captured on the elevator footage, perhaps she was getting tired and wanted to start making her way back toward her room. She pushes a bunch of random buttons, still wanting to look on floors on her way back to her room (just to see how they are; what they look like; if they're nicer than her floor). Perhaps she was just going to peer out, keeping one foot in the elevator (in order not to lose it), and riding the elevator (eventually) to her room on the 4th floor. The elevator doesn't move, so she plays games with herself, jumping out, yelling "Ha!" laughing at herself and the fact that she can’t operate the elevator.

Eventually, she gives up on the elevator and takes the stairs. Suddenly, she sees the flight going up (could she see the door to the roof from the 14th floor?) and thinks it would be neat to go on the roof. When she gets there (via the alarmed door), she wants to get on the highest point of the roof, which is the roof of the storage room. She climbs the red ladder up. She looks out at the city. She looks down and sees the tanks below, wondering what's in them.

Here is how easy it would've been for her to lower herself to the tank: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8376/8491046418_037307c15e_o.png

Scenario A: She opens the hatch. It's pitch black. She isn't exactly sure what's in it. She reaches in, but can't feel anything (it was 3/4th's full, right?). She puts her head inside and leans in, when she accidentally falls in.

Scenario B: She realizes it's water, and decides to jump in with all of her clothes on; OR to strip (skinny dip thrill on the roof?), dropping them inside the open lid, before jumping in herself. She thinks it will be cool to swim in the tank on the roof -- wanting to experience something. She treads the water for a bit, then tries to exit when she realizes that she couldn't get herself out as easily as she originally assumed before entering. She starts to panic, realizes her clothes (if she's still wearing them) are weighing her down, so she hastily strips in the tank in order to try to jump up and pull herself back through the lid.

Scenario A is more far-fetched, in that she would’ve been bound to scratch herself somehow if she accidentally fell in. Scenario B is perplexing because why would she drop all her clothes inside the tank and/or enter the tank fully clothed, when it would make more sense for her to simply leave her clothes outside? The only answer would be that she wasn’t thinking at the time – a weak explanation, but one that definitively can’t be ruled out.

 

[December]

Yeah, Userid, I think your theories and my fiance's theories are probably the best ones that are accident. I think yours is better in one way because it doesn't rely on someone else.

I will say Elisa was an athletic girl and might not have been afraid one bit of the fire escapes. That might have seemed like fun.

But, I just have such a hard time imagining anyone going into the tank. Not to skinny dip or explore or hide. She should have been able to smell the chlorine, so that'd be a tip off that it's water.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I think she was put into the tank AFTER the dogs searched the rooftop (and did not indicate!). Fin.

 

[December]

I think she was put into the tank AFTER the dogs searched the rooftop (and did not indicate!). Fin.

I do think that is a possibility. I don't know for certain how it could be accomplished because I do think they ought to be able to tell if she'd been stored on land or on water.

But, that explains the dogs assuming that the dogs were allowed to search much of the roof. And if they went through the trouble of bringing dogs onto the roof, it does seem the dogs would be allowed to search wherever their noses led them.

I'm really not sure what happened. I have tried and tried with this accidental theory. I just keep coming back with idea that the most logical way for everything to fit together is because someone MADE it fit together.

I have read most (but still not all) of everything here in Elisa's section (as I've read through the threads.. I'm only have the rest of 4 and all of 5 left). I still have the same theory I've always had. Although, I can see some other people's ideas are very good and maybe they are right. But, the ones I see mostly making sense are the ones that fall into the foul play category.

 

[Userid]

^ If you're going to dispose of a body, why would you dispose of it in a water tank? It's a water tank, on top of a roof....even the least intelligent of killers would know that the body would be found eventually. Also, why would you (even in the dead of night), risk carrying a body anywhere on top of a roof in a major city, where there are hundreds of windows of surrounding buildings from which anyone could see you?

The only way this makes sense to me would be if she was killed somewhere outside the hotel; her body stored outside the premises. If she was killed anywhere inside, and stored somewhere else inside before the dogs were brought in, then the dogs would've missed the scent nonetheless (granted they were allowed to search the entire complex). So why would the killer, having stored her body outside the hotel, bring it back inside a hotel, climb the roof, and insert her body into the tank? Wouldn't it just have been easier to dump it in some isolated location? Bury it?

 

[jetsetsam]

I believe that it was important for the killer to place the body in the water tank.

It was symbolic, or better described as a message, that would be understood by Asian recipients.

Bodies in roof top water tanks aren't all that prevalent or known in western culture, but there are at least 2, maybe 3 Asian movies with bodies in roof top water tanks.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

In 2009 in St. Thomas, an unidentified female was found in a Cistern. All that could be determined was that she is a female...and had been shot in the head.

http://stthomassource.com/content/news/local-news/2009/01/17/body-unidentified-woman-found-cistern

 

[Kaliste]

I'm not sure why this thread is still allowed open. I may get in trouble for saying this but I feel that all of these conspiracy theories are disrespectful to both Elisa and her family. Her cause and manner of death have been accounted for. There was no murder. There was no staged incident. There was no evil person who lured her into the water tower. There is just no evidence to support any of it. I find it cruel.