Ethiopian Air ET302, Boeing 737 crashes - 157 souls - 10 March 2019

[JanetElaine]

Why was this plane allowed to fly? I thought they were still grounded? No passengers okay, but if it crashes, there's plenty of people underneath on the ground. What gives?

 

[PrairieWind]

Why was this plane allowed to fly? I thought they were still grounded? No passengers okay, but if it crashes, there's plenty of people underneath on the ground. What gives?

I'm guessing there must be some exceptions to grounding orders to allow planes to fly in certain circumstances.

 

[drama_farmer]

Flightaware flight path: Southwest (WN) #8701 ✈ FlightAware

Here's a screenshot from the above link to FlightAware. Just a helpful graphic of how short the flight path was for Southwest 8701

 

[gregjrichards]

Why was this plane allowed to fly? I thought they were still grounded? No passengers okay, but if it crashes, there's plenty of people underneath on the ground. What gives?

The airlines are allowed to move the planes for storage or maintenance to different locations but they are not allowed to carry paying passengers until the ban is lifted.

 

[JanetElaine]

Here's a screenshot from the above link to FlightAware. Just a helpful graphic of how short the flight path was for Southwest 8701

You can replay it at the link, too. That really drives it home. They turned back literally immediately.

 

[Vern]

Even if a plane crashed in the US where the authorities could not get to it quickly, there is no way anyone culturally here would even think about looting something like this. In other countries, especially ones where they are so poor, any opportunity to get something to sell is taken. Just a cultural and economic thing I think.

Sometimes the police squads are corrupt too.

I'd love to agree with this, but I find it's just the means of taking advantage of a horrible tragedy that differs between first and third world nations. In the third world, the material item matters and can be bartered.

Setting up fake accounts (or other "fake" charity collection) to take advantage of tragedy and "loot" from real survivors and their remaining family is where the first world excels. Happens every single time. Hurricanes, floods (both with fake GFMs AND actual looting of victims and business') murders ...

Different methods - exact same thing.

 

[gregjrichards]

Pilots had less than 40 seconds to correct a fault with Boeing's automated system that investigators suspect caused the two disastrous plane crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia, according to tests.

The pilots underwent a crisis simulation test to recreate the final moments of Lion Air Flight 610, which nosedived into the Java Sea shortly after take-off in October 2018.

The automated system, known as MCAS, is also the focal point of the probe into the Ethiopian Airlines crash involving the same Boeing 737 Max model earlier this month.

The aviation giant has come under intense scrutiny over the two crashes, in which a total of 346 lives were lost.

Pilots had 40 SECONDS to over-ride automated system in Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crashes | Daily Mail Online

 

[MsMarple]

I'm guessing there must be some exceptions to grounding orders to allow planes to fly in certain circumstances.

Yes. Pilots have been test flying 737 MAXs in my area, between Renton and the newly opened Paine Field.
https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle...37-max-7-jets-test-flights-mcas-upgrades.html

 

[gregjrichards]

Yes. Pilots have been test flying 737 MAXs in my area, between Renton and the newly opened Paine Field.
https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle...37-max-7-jets-test-flights-mcas-upgrades.html

I’m really not looking forward to these planes taking passengers again I have lost confidence in the Boeing Max series aircraft.

 

[MsMarple]

I’m really not looking forward to these planes taking passengers again I have lost confidence in the Boeing Max series aircraft.

I'm on a "wait and see" for now. The planes are grounded so I won't be booked onto a MAX until they're deemed safe and released for carrying passengers.

Last year the Airbus320neo was briefly grounded because of Pratt & Whitney (PW... I can't remember which one in particular) engine problems - there was a midflight engine failure. So IMO any plane can have issues.

My beef with Boeing (and the FAA to an extent) is their failure to directly address the MCAS problem from start to finish. The CYA and the um, "creative" problem-solving of allowing Boeing to inspect and certify itself.

And Boeing continues to defend the MAX - okay, I get that but their reluctance to consider there may be weaknesses in its design, essentially stomping their feet and saying they don't need more oversight in developing and certifying their aircraft... well, that leaves me cold and questioning just how concerned Boeing is with passenger safety as opposed to sales. MOO.

A Senate hearing is scheduled today.

The 737 Max is the subject of a criminal investigation and a congressional inquiry.

While Boeing hosts its meetings, lawmakers in Washington are staging a Senate hearing on aviation safety and oversight on Wednesday afternoon. Among those expected to offer testimony are Daniel K. Elwell, acting administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration, and Robert Sumwalt, chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board and Calvin L. Scovel III, the Transportation Department’s inspector general.

Boeing will also have to convince a skeptical community of global aviation professionals that the 737 Max will be safe to fly once the flight systems are updated.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...-renton-wash-boeing-details-max-software-fix/
Boeing 737 Max: FAA Granted Boeing Increasing Authority to Safety-Check Its Own Planes
FAA to revamp oversight of airplane development after two deadly Boeing crashes

 

[human]

Not sure how anyone could guarantee they don’t get a Boeing plane unless the airline you fly with has none. But then , they have partners. And planes are switched all of the time.

If there are issues such as airport closures, you may be booked onto another airline entirely.

Ditch those losers

 

[gregjrichards]

Not sure how anyone could guarantee they don’t get a Boeing plane unless the airline you fly with has none. But then , they have partners. And planes are switched all of the time.

If there are issues such as airport closures, you may be booked onto another airline entirely.

Ditch those losers

I don’t have a problem going on Boeing Planes I would gladly fly a 737, 747 or a 787 it’s only the Max ones I have a problem with. I just get the impression it is a Frankenstein aircraft that should never have seen the light of day with the MCAS and the new engines.

 

[gregjrichards]

Boeing announces 737 MAX tech fixes following two fatal air crashes

Boeing says its new fixes make MCAS less powerful and less prone to error, as well as making it easier for the flight crew to monitor whether the sensors that feed MCAS information are accurate.

The company has also proposed extra computer-based training for pilots, although it will not be recommending time in a simulator.

Boeing announces 737 MAX tech fixes following two fatal air crashes

Not good enough in my opinion. How is a pilot supposed to learn about the MCAS fix flight changes on a computer?

 

[human]

Boeing announces 737 MAX tech fixes following two fatal air crashes

Boeing says its new fixes make MCAS less powerful and less prone to error, as well as making it easier for the flight crew to monitor whether the sensors that feed MCAS information are accurate.

The company has also proposed extra computer-based training for pilots, although it will not be recommending time in a simulator.

Boeing announces 737 MAX tech fixes following two fatal air crashes

Not good enough in my opinion. How is a pilot supposed to learn about the MCAS fix flight changes on a computer?

I hope they get tons of lawsuits.

 

[gregjrichards]

I hope they get tons of lawsuits.

I think that’s a certainty and the fact that these fixes are necessary is going to help with the legal process.

 

[Justice101]

I think that’s a certainty and the fact that these fixes are necessary is going to help with the legal process.

The fact that these changes are going in place before the findings even when the exact cause(s) of the two crashes are not known... (investigation is ongoing) , this alone probably doesn't hurt the airline in lawsuits. But If the MCAS system is found to be dysfunctional even with proper training, then Boeing will get sued out the rear end. They will still be sued even if it was only a contributing factor even with poor maintenance and poor training being the primary causes (which I suspect). Very few people can technically fly a commercial aircraft...and only with training. Cannot be done by feel alone. Too many systems. Too many gadgets and whizbangs. So if the plane self-corrects itself, and a reminder was sent out by Boeing before the second crash and they didn't;t inform or train those pilots, then it is only shared blame with Boeing.

That is totally my opinion. So what do I know??

 

[PrairieWind]

I think that’s a certainty and the fact that these fixes are necessary is going to help with the legal process.

That gets complicated. Subsequent remedial measures cannot be used as evidence of negligence. Its a rule of evidence in federal and state courts (in the USA). But there are work arounds on that at times. Air crash litigation is incredibly complicated and there are all sorts of weird rules. It has become its own area of law, with firms specializing in it. Damages are capped at times, I can't even begin to explain because I myself know very little. From a legal standpoint, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. From a practical standpoint, I sure hope Boeing gets this figured out, and changes are made in the plane, and in the FAA.

 

[PrairieWind]

Boeing announces 737 MAX tech fixes following two fatal air crashes

Boeing says its new fixes make MCAS less powerful and less prone to error, as well as making it easier for the flight crew to monitor whether the sensors that feed MCAS information are accurate.

The company has also proposed extra computer-based training for pilots, although it will not be recommending time in a simulator.

Boeing announces 737 MAX tech fixes following two fatal air crashes

Not good enough in my opinion. How is a pilot supposed to learn about the MCAS fix flight changes on a computer?

This, to me, is very important. Part of the Lion Air crash issue started because the computer got faulty info that caused the MCAS to kick in when it wasn't needed. Faulty data to the computer is what initiated the Air France 447 disaster. Computer and flight programs are making flying safer. But if the computers are getting faulty info, they can't fly right, and the pilots are left confused and are fighting the computer. So something that better ensures accurate info to the computer is helpful.

 

[gregjrichards]

Officials investigating the fatal crash of a Boeing Co. BA 0.06% 737 MAX in Ethiopia have reached a preliminary conclusion that a suspect flight-control feature automatically activated before the plane nose-dived into the ground, according to people briefed on the matter, the first findings based on data retrieved from the flight’s black boxes.

The emerging consensus among investigators, one of these people said, was relayed during a high-level briefing at the Federal Aviation Administration on Thursday, and is the strongest indication yet that the same automated system, called MCAS, misfired in both the Ethiopian Airlines flight earlier this month and a Lion Air flight in Indonesia, which crashed less than five months earlier. The two crashes claimed 346 lives.

Boeing 737 MAX Stall-Prevention Feature Activated in Ethiopian Crash, Investigators Believe

 

[JudgeJudi]

A lawsuit against Boeing has been filed in US Federal Court in what appears to be the first suit over the March 10 Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX crash that killed 157 people.

The lawsuit was filed in Chicago Federal Court by the family of Jackson Musoni, a citizen of Rwanda who died in the crash, and alleges Boeing had defectively designed the automated flight control system. Boeing did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the lawsuit.

The crash of Boeing's passenger jet in Ethiopia raised the chances that families of the victims, even non-US residents, will be able to sue in US courts, where payouts are much larger than in other countries, some legal experts have said.

The complaint was filed by Mr Musoni's three young children, who are Dutch citizens residing in Belgium.

The lawsuit says Boeing failed to warn the public, airlines and pilots of the airplane's allegedly erroneous sensors, causing the aircraft to dive automatically and uncontrollably.

Ethiopian Airlines crash victim's family takes Boeing to court