Evidence subject to Frye - *UPDATED* 2011.05.09 (ATTN: ALL ORDERS IN!)

[Anais]

That was a rape case though, no DP. I do wonder looking at the other rulings if there is other established evidence that is admissible if it can be allowed in conjunction with that? I can't explain it in legal speak but what I mean is since there is an abundance of other evidence showing human decomposition and chloroform in addition to the scientific experts for decomp and chloroform if that helps lay the groundwork or works in conjunction rather than new science that stands alone. I hope that makes sense?

Yes very much! Well I will still hold on tightly to my slight optimism! I am with Beach on the root growth though even though I'd like it all to go Caylee/SAO way!

 

[LolaMoon08]

I don't want to send you to the bathroom vomiting but as LolaMoon just reminded me of her being found in the big trouble shirt and the bandaid sticker you can't ignore so many obvious signs. The spiteful biotch statement to Lee. Where does it end? No doubt Casey does not think and feel like the majority of mothers.

When I think of Casey placing the duct tape on Caylee's face, placing the heart shaped sticker on the duct tape and putting her into that T-shirt... I don't imagine somone in an all out rage.. or someone who had had some kind of psychotic break. I imagine someone slowly, calmly and meticuously taking these steps. Someone who was clearly thinking about sending a message.

I am so sad now!

 

[cloud9]

I know we're not at the Sidebar, but one of the perks of being a mod is we can break out the champagne for a special occassion even on a "dry" thread. Well, just this once. :angel:

So, CHEERS EVERYONE!!!

Awww... Thanks!!!

 

[dizzychick]

Someone on TV made an interesting statement or observation about how a person could lie to the cops constantly and also be capable of killing with out feeling shame or remorse or even guilt. The statement was something to the effect Casey has such a high excitement threshold that lying to a cop does not scare her. Killing her child did not scare her or even really upset her that much.

Normal people feel pain for others, they have empathy. For some reason Casey lacks this emotion. Everything to her is just another act, like an actor in a film. Its not real, just like she said the day they found Caylee;s body. Sad but true....

Ted Bundy felt no remorse or empathy for his victim. Not until the day he walked into the death chamber did he show any real fear. At that moment he pled with the corrections officers to let him live a little longer. He tried to bargain with them by saying he could help locate more bodies. Of course they said no and they had enough evidence. So until that moment he never felt fear. He cried like a baby as they carried out his sentence... Good Ridence.....

 

[Harmony 2]

When I think of Casey placing the duct tape on Caylee's face, placing the heart shaped sticker on the duct tape and putting her into that T-shirt... I don't imagine somone in an all out rage.. or someone who had had some kind of psychotic break. I imagine someone slowly, calmly and meticuously taking these steps. Someone who was clearly thinking about sending a message.

I am so sad now!

If the chloroform does not come in it makes the killing more horrifying than it already is. The chloroform makes you ponder Caylee possibly being subdued and lessens somewhat the horrific nature of Caylee's demise. In a backwards kind of way removing the chloroform would make Casey look more cold blooded and ruthless..

 

[gitana1]

Since there is no proof that we are aware of that ICA actually made or purchased chloroform - but the roll of tape came from the house and had 4 or more pieces cut from said roll - that's where I have no trouble finding premeditation. Aside from the possibility that if the chloroform was used and the COD - it could have been accidental.

Just like suffocation by any other means - there are several minutes there to change your mind - obviously she didn't.

Why couldn't she have simply used chloroform to knock her child out completely before strangling her, drowning her or smothering her? That's what I think happened and what the state will present to the jury.

 

[strach304]

When I think of Casey placing the duct tape on Caylee's face, placing the heart shaped sticker on the duct tape and putting her into that T-shirt... I don't imagine somone in an all out rage.. or someone who had had some kind of psychotic break. I imagine someone slowly, calmly and meticuously taking these steps. Someone who was clearly thinking about sending a message.

I am so sad now!

Especially when you consider the premeditation and time factored in. Add the evidence of an argument with CA, plans with Tony being priority, unanswered calls to parents possibly for a babysitter, emotional blackmail and history of with-holding Caylee from her parents for spite, SP's testimony about love/hate and psychologist advice to Cindy. Paints a pretty clear picture and valid DP argument imo.

 

[strach304]

Why couldn't she have simply used chloroform to knock her child out completely before strangling her, drowning her or smothering her? That's what I think happened and what the state will present to the jury.

Unless JA has changed his mind since he last presented his theory in court I doubt that is what the state will present.

 

[Anais]

When I think of Casey placing the duct tape on Caylee's face, placing the heart shaped sticker on the duct tape and putting her into that T-shirt... I don't imagine somone in an all out rage.. or someone who had had some kind of psychotic break. I imagine someone slowly, calmly and meticuously taking these steps. Someone who was clearly thinking about sending a message.

I am so sad now!

Lola ITA with you. IMO ICA is always in complete control, or has to be. I also believe that much of the fighting and arguing were control issues. Control over who ICA dated/married, who her friends were and of course number one was control of Caylee. I envision massive power struggles between the two and poor Caylee caught in the cross fires of it all!

I believe that ICA acted with cold, claculating and meticulous manner while killing Caylee.

 

[LolaMoon08]

If the chloroform does not come in it makes the killing more horrifying than it already is. The chloroform makes you ponder Caylee possibly being subdued and lessens somewhat the horrific nature of Caylee's demise. In a backwards kind of way removing the chloroform would make Casey look more cold blooded and ruthless..

My problem with the chloroform is that I really do not understand after a month how the levels remained as high as they did. I don't know if I believe if the chloroform was actually used to help kill Caylee? The trunk had been opened numerous times (allowing air to escape). We know Casey tried to clean it herself (paper towels). The trunk was opened, for a very short time, when Casey gave George his freaking gas cans. It was also aired out for hours on end when Cindy and George got the car on July 15th, 2008.

You are 100% that Caylee's death, without chloroform, is so much worse than her being subdued at the time of death. The chloroform just continues to confuse me? I am not even sure if the chloroform wasn't meant for Cindy and George and when Casey seen all the cops at the house needed to get rid of it and dumped it in the car? I'm thinking too hard now, but I just don't know if I believe the chloroform was used on Caylee? :banghead:

 

[MaryAnn]

It is amazing isn't it. By now, she is use to it, but the fact that she smiled the way she did at her mother when Cindy lied about putting the dryer towels in the trunk was beyond. I got two things from that: 1 - thank you for lying for me and 2) Cindy will do anything for me - I am the most important person to her.

I'm sure Judge Perry saw that. If we saw it, he had to notice. Frankly, it makes me want to puke! ICA is happy again, she's controlling her Mother. The first time she even acknowledges her Mother since she's been in jail. I bet they are both Proud of themselves thinking they pulled a fast one! I can't wait to see ICA's face when all 12 jurors say ''GUILTY" of 1st degree premeditated murder.

 

[strach304]

Someone on TV made an interesting statement or observation about how a person could lie to the cops constantly and also be capable of killing with out feeling shame or remorse or even guilt. The statement was something to the effect Casey has such a high excitement threshold that lying to a cop does not scare her. Killing her child did not scare her or even really upset her that much.

Normal people feel pain for others, they have empathy. For some reason Casey lacks this emotion. Everything to her is just another act, like an actor in a film. Its not real, just like she said the day they found Caylee;s body. Sad but true....

Ted Bundy felt no remorse or empathy for his victim. Not until the day he walked into the death chamber did he show any real fear. At that moment he pled with the corrections officers to let him live a little longer. He tried to bargain with them by saying he could help locate more bodies. Of course they said no and they had enough evidence. So until that moment he never felt fear. He cried like a baby as they carried out his sentence... Good Ridence.....

These are all characteristics of a sociopath I have seen used time and time again to describe Ted Bundy and SP as well. True to form they do feel for themselves and SP, TB and CA have all cried for themselves but showed no remorse for the victims. The only exception was with Ted Bundy openly admitting that he knew he was different, not normal and what he was doing was wrong. SP and CA will never make that admission because they have nothing to gain by admitting guilt and trying to negotiate a DP sentence like TB.

 

[gitana1]

If the chloroform does not come in it makes the killing more horrifying than it already is. The chloroform makes you ponder Caylee possibly being subdued and lessens somewhat the horrific nature of Caylee's demise. In a backwards kind of way removing the chloroform would make Casey look more cold blooded and ruthless..

You are right.

Unless JA has changed his mind since he last presented his theory in court I doubt that is what the state will present.

That's true. He did talk about Caylee watching her killers eyes as she died. Then I wonder what they want the chloroform evidence in for? I do believe it was a "soft kill", if any murder of a baby can be called that. I don't think casey had enough rage towards Caylee to kill her while conscious and I do think she had some remnants of fondness for her. Hence, she probably wanted Caylee knocked out first.
Even serial killers sometimes cover their victims faces or seem to feel somewhat bad about certain victims over others. I don't know.

I share the feeling that the air samples may not come in. But, I don't think it will matter. This case has an abundance of evidence. More than enough to gain a murder 1 conviction, IMO. casey is never getting out. :snowball:

 

[Harmony 2]

Unless JA has changed his mind since he last presented his theory in court I doubt that is what the state will present.

This is what Ashton stated:

Further explaining why he believed the case was eligible for the death penalty, Ashton speculated what jurors might infer from the facts presented to them. He suggested that Caylee's killer may have either given the toddler a substance to knock her unconscious before applying duct tape to her mouth and nose, or had physically restrained her before doing so.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-12-11/...rt_1_death-penalty-duct-tape-jury?_s=PM:CRIME

 

[denjet]

Originally Posted by sleutherontheside

I hope I am wrong....but me thinks that the chloroform / air samples will be out. Reading between the lines here.....the other orders are in but the chloroform is not....

I sense something here.

I know what you mean, Sots. I am holding out hope though. It could mean a lot of things. Maybe he wanted to release those he knew how he was going to rule on and is still researching and making sure he makes the right call....whichever way it goes. I want it in, but I am okay if it is not. I trust his judgement completely.

Holding out hope....

I may be all wrong, but these motions that Judge Perry just ruled on seemed to be the less complicated ones and his orders were short and concise ... IMO the air sampling and root growth are the more complex motions to rule on and probably required more prep time to draft ... and I'm sure Judge Perry wants to get it right the first time ...
Who knows for sure but I think it's all going to come in ... Dr Vaas was a very compelling expert witness and so was Dr Haskell ...

Keep the faith! raying:

 

[denjet]

I know we're not at the Sidebar, but one of the perks of being a mod is we can break out the champagne for a special occassion even on a "dry" thread. Well, just this once. :angel:

So, CHEERS EVERYONE!!!

I'll drink to that !! :toast:

AWESOME !!

 

[cloud9]

This is what Ashton stated:



http://articles.cnn.com/2009-12-11/...rt_1_death-penalty-duct-tape-jury?_s=PM:CRIME

Exactly!

 

[Marina2]

You know, I really, really, really want the air sampling evidence to be admitted and I just LOVE Dr. Vass. However, if it will cause an overturning of the verdict or a mistrial, I think Judge Perry has given the jury enough. What does the defense have left? There's no nanny, no squirrel, no pizza, no garbage - what on earth are they going to do to defend ICA??

The thing is, an incorrect ruling on the air sample evidence isn't likely to get the case overturned. There's too much other evidence that says the same thing... a dead body, specifically Caylee's, was in KC's car. For the case to be overturned on the air sample evidence being admitted incorrectly, it has to be decided that the entire outcome of the case would have changed had it not been admitted. HHJP knows this so I'm not so sure he's worried about an appellate issue with his ruling. I think he's just making sure he drafts his order perfectly with lot's of research and citations to back his opinion.

 

[Softail]

I just love how once again, in the DENIED sticker motion, CJBP in such a subtle way says: "The case law you cite has absolutley nothing to do with anything in this case"

:giggle:

 

[dr dona]

I want the odor analysis to come in. Lets face it Dr Vass is the leading expert in the world concerning this and the Body Farm is #1 in the study of human decomp. I just laughed when the defense expert tried to counter Dr Vass.......his own students use Dr Vass's work as references.
I just love Dr Vass!!!!!!