Evidence

[SouthEastSleuth]

Let's agree to disagree. I am certain he played soccer that night. And I'm just as certain he killed Janet. The rest is details for the lawyers.:truce:

We have heard reported in the media, not by LE for sure, the reports of Raven playing soccer - now, that said, that first media report was repeating information from Raven's brother as I recall. However, there have been other media reports citing that same information, most recently the article in the Virginia newspaper a week or so ago (see media thread). My thought is, that information would not be "out there", even from Raven's brother, if there was not at least some level of truth to it - and if Raven said he played soccer, and LE found out he did NOT, Raven would already be wearing orange I think.

My bet is he DID play soccer, LE knows it, that LE has verified his soccer story, and, the delays in the case lie elsewhere - physical evidence.

 

[Jenifred]

SES--amazing post. I can't believe that we missed the various addresses of evidence collecting. Great insight too.:clap:

I think that #2 is the scenario. I just wish that someone that was playing soccer with him that night could tell us more about his mood. Was he anxious or was he exhilarated? And I wish we could get more information about the 911 call too. Where was it placed from? Exact time? What was actually said? All of this information would be helpful.

Questions though SES, why do you think that it's taking so long to get information back? Do you think that there's a hold up in the testing? Or do you think that it's possible no incriminating evidence was found? I seriously don't think that Raven could have been that careful in cleaning up that he didn't leave some sort of piece of evidence behind. I wonder if LE swabbed the bathroom's drains (any trace of blood there or bleach)?

Anyone also know when Raven is heading back to NC?

 

[Moxie]

I do believe the beautiful state of NC should expect a visit from the Bird himself this very week.

 

[SouthEastSleuth]

I think that #2 is the scenario. I just wish that someone that was playing soccer with him that night could tell us more about his mood. Was he anxious or was he exhilarated? And I wish we could get more information about the 911 call too. Where was it placed from? Exact time? What was actually said? All of this information would be helpful.

Questions though SES, why do you think that it's taking so long to get information back? Do you think that there's a hold up in the testing? Or do you think that it's possible no incriminating evidence was found? I seriously don't think that Raven could have been that careful in cleaning up that he didn't leave some sort of piece of evidence behind. I wonder if LE swabbed the bathroom's drains (any trace of blood there or bleach)?

Anyone also know when Raven is heading back to NC?

I do believe Raven did play soccer that night, truly. I also believe that if if killed Janet, he did so, THEN left to play soccer to create an alibi. But, I do see the point EI makes as well. It is beyond my wildest imagination how anyone could murder ANYONE (just murder anyone period, for that matter), then go play soccer. That I will never understand, ever. To me that is the mind of a sociopath, clearly...and I guess that makes me glad that I can't understand that sort of demented mental capacity. What are your thoughts as you're on that soccer field? Are you focused on the game? Are you simply using this time to plan the events that will invariably occur over the next several hours? There's a story about one of the guys who was allegedly Jack the Ripper - murdering a woman one evening, then going to play cards and have drinks with friends - the friends reported that he was his "usual jovial self" that evening at the club. Unreal to me. But, I digress..

Jenifred, I wish I could answer your questions. My only thoughts have to do with the crime lab, backlogs of cases, etc. I would bet money that LE found SOMETHING - whether trace where it shouldn't be, blood where it shouldn't be, but something.... and this "something", whatever it may be, is what will sink the perp in this case, once and for all...

 

[Jenifred]

I would bet money that LE found SOMETHING - whether trace where it shouldn't be, blood where it shouldn't be, but something.... and this "something", whatever it may be, is what will sink the perp in this case, once and for all...

Then I wonder why he hasn't been picked up.:behindbar (<--my virtual head hurts from the banging)

I really wonder about that soccer game. It makes me sick to think that he could have gotten some kind of high of the adrenaline pumping through his body if he murdered Janet before the game. And I also believe that he's got no qualms about leaving Kaiden home, in his crib sleeping, while he went out to play.

 

[SouthEastSleuth]

And I also believe that he's got no qualms about leaving Kaiden home, in his crib sleeping, while he went out to play.

Early on, this was the very reason that made me always think that if Raven killed Janet, that he played soccer, then came home and killed her. I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that he would leave Kaiden there, unattended, while Janet was lying dead in the next room. I changed my thinking on that long ago though - I really believe, and this is certainly JMO, that LE has verified that soccer game - as far as IF Raven played, when he arrived, and when he departed, and accordingly, able to at least extrapolate when he arrived home. That said, a lot would hinge on the time he arrived home, versus making the 911 call. For example, let's say Raven tells LE he left the soccer game at, oh, I don't know 10:15pm... and if LE determines, ok, then it's a let's say, 20 minute drive home, and the 911 call is logged at 10:58pm, then the timeframe for murdering Janet is pretty darn short - especially if there's clean up, set up, what have you. Now, if Raven says, oh I was home by 10:00, then what the heck was he doing until 10:58pm? To make the alibi "work", if you will, he almost has to say that he arrived home not too terribly long before making the 911 call, otherwise, it just doesn't fly.

All of which makes me thinks the murder was first, then soccer, then home. And in that case, he almost has no choice about Kaiden. What's he going to say really? 'Oh, I left Janet at home, and took Kaiden (6month old, early evening) to the soccer game with me, etc" Nope, he has to leave Kaiden at home in the crib, otherwise the story will never work with LE, IMO... And again, so difficult to comprehend, but again, that's why we DON'T think that way hopefully - only a sociopath can think like that, IMO.

 

[OffRoad]

If he did in fact leave Kaiden home, one would think that his "game" might have been a little off that night. Has anyone had contact with fellow team members? Questioned his performance that night and compared it to previous abilities?

 

[newkid]

If he did in fact leave Kaiden home, one would think that his "game" might have been a little off that night. Has anyone had contact with fellow team members? Questioned his performance that night and compared it to previous abilities?

If he is indeed the murderer and left his child home alone, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he played the same as always. I'm sure he would have convinced himself that he had solved a lot of his problems.

 

[juliagoulia]

If he is indeed the murderer and left his child home alone, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he played the same as always. I'm sure he would have convinced himself that he had solved a lot of his problems.

Or, as we've discussed, if he was in a "manic" phase, his actions could have seemed completely logical to him.

 

[Cydbaby]

Investigators have found what they believe are four strands of Natalee's hair stuck on duct tape...it is a confirmed find!

This was found not far from where they found a dug grave last week..

This info was posted on the yahoogroup "High Profile Cases" with alot more details re: the DNA tests, etc. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HighProfileCases

 

[ewwwinteresting]

Investigators have found what they believe are four strands of Natalee's hair stuck on duct tape...it is a confirmed find!

This was found not far from where they found a dug grave last week..

This info was posted on the yahoogroup "High Profile Cases" with alot more details re: the DNA tests, etc. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HighProfileCases

I read that on the Natalee thread.....waiting for test results to determine if they were Natalee's....kinda like what we are doing on this thread...waiting for test results!!

 

[ewwwinteresting]

Then I wonder why he hasn't been picked up.:behindbar (<--my virtual head hurts from the banging)

I really wonder about that soccer game. It makes me sick to think that he could have gotten some kind of high of the adrenaline pumping through his body if he murdered Janet before the game. And I also believe that he's got no qualms about leaving Kaiden home, in his crib sleeping, while he went out to play.

Right now, I agree with you Jen.

Here's my thinking. And no offense Moxie, I'm not disagreeing as much as trying to discuss all the possibilities and then reach some conclusion.

The ONLY info we have about a soccer game is from a family member. To answer your questions Offroad, to our knowledge, no one has come forward to state they played with or against Raven that night.

What if LE can't confirm OR deny this alibi? A pickup game? From what I read it could be held anywhere with anyone....and most likely with illegal immigrants. A perfect alibi....no way to confirm it, but also no way to prove it is a lie. I'm having a hard time with the whole investigation of this murder and receiving no information. Of course, you would think that if LE could't verify the alibi, they would put out an announcement stating if anybody played a soccer pickup game in Durham, NC on the night of April 26, 2005, call PD. We've heard no such thing....so does this mean LE has verified the alibi and haven't caught Raven in any lies, so no arrest?

Or....as julia and newkid stated, if Raven did murder Janet, leave Kaiden at home, and played in a soccer game, was he in his "manic" mood and therefore could act normal when he just did something so brutally abnormal, thinking it made sense?....if this is the case, isn't the public in danger?

Or.....is a sociopath....acting completely normal......if this is the case, isn't the public in danger?

I guess I can't come to terms with Raven stabbing his wife, leaving her there to die on the floor while her baby is down the hallway in his crib, and leaving without Kaiden, leaving him there with no one to care for him if he wakes up. If Raven is capable of doing that, then I believe the public is in danger from a psychopath!!

 

[Jenifred]

I guess I can't come to terms with Raven stabbing his wife, leaving her there to die on the floor while her baby is down the hallway in his crib, and leaving without Kaiden, leaving him there with no one to care for him if he wakes up. If Raven is capable of doing that, then I believe the public is in danger from a psychopath!!

In the San Diego Seagull article, the story was that Raven had put Kaiden to bed. And if this is what is being put out there as Raven's story, then I'm assuming this is what Raven had told his family. And if that's the case and if Raven is the murderer, I assume that he left Kaiden home. It is horrible to think, but how else can he get his alibi?

And if that's the case and Janet was killed before the game, wouldn't her body temperature give LE some kind of clue that Raven killed her before the game? And then wouldn't he be in custody now?

 

[ewwwinteresting]

In the San Diego Seagull article, the story was that Raven had put Kaiden to bed. And if this is what is being put out there as Raven's story, then I'm assuming this is what Raven had told his family. And if that's the case and if Raven is the murderer, I assume that he left Kaiden home. It is horrible to think, but how else can he get his alibi?

Of course, it doesn't say what time he put him to bed. Could have been at 8:00 pm or 10:00 pm or not at all. Maybe Janet put Kaiden to bed and Raven just wants to appear as the great Dad?? I just don't believe anything the family says because it comes from Raven and we know Raven is a liar.

And if that's the case and Janet was killed before the game, wouldn't her body temperature give LE some kind of clue that Raven killed her before the game? And then wouldn't he be in custody now?

I may be wrong, but I think we are dealing with such a small time frame here, TOD isn't going to help. If they can pin the TOD within 2 or 3 hours, what does it matter if she died at 8:30, 9:00 or 10:30.....it's all within the time Raven was supposedly gone. If Raven claims he left at 8:00 and didn't come home until 10:45, I don't see how TOD will point the finger at him. There has to be other evidence. I just can't imagine Raven being this intelligent and not blatantly leaving physical evidence. Could Raven have outsmarted the Detectives?

 

[Jenifred]

There has to be other evidence. I just can't imagine Raven being this intelligent and not blatantly leaving physical evidence. Could Raven have outsmarted the Detectives?

I don't think Raven could have outsmarted LE. There's got to be something that was left behind. Could LE have missed it?

And I also agree with an earlier post of your ewww saying that it's time for Janet's family to go public. It's been too long for silence now.

Could NC LE be planning something for the 22nd?

 

[SouthEastSleuth]

I may be wrong, but I think we are dealing with such a small time frame here, TOD isn't going to help. If they can pin the TOD within 2 or 3 hours, what does it matter if she died at 8:30, 9:00 or 10:30.....it's all within the time Raven was supposedly gone. If Raven claims he left at 8:00 and didn't come home until 10:45, I don't see how TOD will point the finger at him. There has to be other evidence. I just can't imagine Raven being this intelligent and not blatantly leaving physical evidence. Could Raven have outsmarted the Detectives?

I agree. As I recall, someone posted info early on that TOD is usually just narrowed to that rough timeframe, 2-3 hours. That said, as EI points out, the TOD versus the alibi info, I don't think, will tell us much at all.

I also agree that there "has to be other evidence." Raven may BE smart, but the smartest of criminals are hard pressed to beat the realm of science. My money is on crime scene evidence, and that the delay is somehow in the processing of that evidence at the crime lab. I have this mental image of those poor souls at the state crime lab - with that huge backlog of case - boxes and bags just piled all over the shelves of perhaps "cases in progress," - and somewhere in all of those boxes, bags, what have you, there's evidence labeled with Janet's name. Patiently sitting there, awaiting it's turn to be analyzed, tested, whatever. Once that happens, if we still have no arrest, I haven't a clue or guess as to what would happen next.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

On the flip side of all this –

Let’s assume Raven did kill Janet.

So is all of this blood everywhere, at least on the interior doors and possibly on the exterior door of the Durango, just some huge set-up? Literally placed there, intentionally, to come up with this story? Several scenarios come to mind –

1) Raven murders Janet, intentionally places blood in the various places, as he comes up with his alibi on the run, literally. Then goes to play soccer. Comes home, uses this dramatic story to explain what has happened, etc. This one doesn’t work for me, at least for one reason – if he got blood on the driver’s door of the Durango, how could he be sure no one at the soccer game wouldn’t notice it, etc.? Possible I suppose, but risky too. Also, in this scenario, Raven could easily have deposited blood, trace, something inside the Durango. Plus, there’s also the issue of the blood itself. I’m no crime scene person by any means, but in this age of CSI, you often hear about the age of blood, blood coagulation, etc. So if the blood was deposited PRIOR to playing soccer, it would seem easily tested in that regard.

2) Raven murders Janet. Leaves Kaiden in his crib, goes to play soccer. Either he’s thought all of this out in advance, or, perhaps while playing soccer he comes up with this story. So he returns home, and literally does all of those things – comes in the house, kisses Kaiden, "finds" Janet, perhaps tries to "save" her, now having her blood on him, runs downstairs looking for the cellphone, and then either intentionally places the blood on the door and Durango, as part of his story, or perhaps even unintentionally, as can then be explained by his version of events, etc. Either way, the presence of the blood is now easily explained to LE when they arrive, or later.

3) Or, lastly, Raven goes to play soccer, comes home later, murders Janet, THEN acts out the whole scenario as described.

Me, I’ve always believed that if Raven is the perp, he murdered Janet, THEN played soccer to create an alibi, etc. And if that’s the case, my bet is on theory #2, as creepy and vile as it may seem. But, that’s JMO.

Theory #2 also has my vote. It is creepy and vile but it's the only way that I can understand no arrest yet (if Raven is the perp). Murders her, leaves his baby alone at home, goes to enjoy his soccer alibi, then comes home and goes through all of the motions that would be "normal" upon finding his dead wife. He's a smart guy; he probably got blood on him and took no care to prevent spreading it around. That way, if he had accidentally dripped some during the crime, he felt the planted blood could cover it up. If Raven is the perp., I feel (as we all know) that it was premeditated but I also feel as if he planned down to the very last detail of which he could think. ETA: That includes having her blood on him in case there might have been some that he missed when he cleaned himself up.

Note 1: One other point regarding possible evidence INSIDE the Durango. Rooster did say (Evidence thread, post # 368) that the Durango was locked, and Raven went "back inside to get Janets phone or keys to the Durango."

Is this word for word? Why would he say to get Janet's phone or keys to the Durango? I find that very curious. Is he speculating on what Raven might have been doing? Otherwise, he would either go back for Janet's phone OR he would go back for the keys. And if he went back for Janet's phone, why didn't he just use that phone in the first place before running around the house, leaving blood all over the place? Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding ... I haven't reread that post so without the context, perhaps I'm missing something.

BTW, I do not remember if they took any samples from the kitchen, counters, or tables anywhere. I wonder where Raven droppped his things when he got home - keys, sunglasses, wallet, whatever he might have had.

ETA: Excellent post, SES. I never looked at the addresses of the evidence collection before. Good catch.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I'm having a hard time thinking Raven murdered Janet and then left Kaiden alone in his crib.

If it would help his alibi, I am positive that Raven would leave him in his crib. And remember, if Raven is indeed manic, and hasn't been taking his medication, leaving Kaiden alone in his crib could just be another bad decision.

If Raven murdered Janet, it's obvious that he already doesn't think like us. So who knows what kind of twisted rationale he could have for leaving that baby there alone?

He said that he had gone to Kaiden's room where he had left him sleeping or something like that in a recent article. So it sounds like Kaiden was already asleep before Raven left, and that Raven had put him to bed. Raven was probably well aware of Kaiden's sleeping habits, and knew that if K's little belly was full, he'd sleep right through the night. So he feeds the baby, puts him to bed, does whatever he does next, and locks the door behind him. Kaiden was young enough that he probably couldn't even stand yet so Raven didn't have to worry about him getting out of his crib. He only had to worry about an outside danger getting in. And to a murderer, is the threat of an outside danger any worse than what he, himself, is? I think that if you can brutally murder someone, especially someone you love and especially with a knife, then you probably don't perceive outside dangers the way a "normal" person would.

IMO, if a person's mind is messed up enough to commit murder, leaving a sleeping baby in his crib alone is no big deal - especially if doing so would help your alibi, and get you home free.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

It is beyond my wildest imagination how anyone could murder ANYONE (just murder anyone period, for that matter), then go play soccer. That I will never understand, ever. To me that is the mind of a sociopath, clearly...and I guess that makes me glad that I can't understand that sort of demented mental capacity. What are your thoughts as you're on that soccer field? Are you focused on the game? Are you simply using this time to plan the events that will invariably occur over the next several hours? There's a story about one of the guys who was allegedly Jack the Ripper - murdering a woman one evening, then going to play cards and have drinks with friends - the friends reported that he was his "usual jovial self" that evening at the club.

And in the case of 9 year-old Jessica Lunsford, John Couey raped her and possibly buried her alive right across the street from her family's home. Mere days later, he was seen mugging it up for a video news story about smoking in bars. There he was - drinking, smoking, laughing - looked like he didn't have a care in the world. Some people are simply not capable of thinking the way we do, I guess.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

If he is indeed the murderer and left his child home alone, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he played the same as always. I'm sure he would have convinced himself that he had solved a lot of his problems.

Absolutely. And if he is a sociopath, he wouldn't necessarily feel any differently after murdering someone. They are simply incapable of emotions. They might squeeze out some crocodile tears now and then when they need to, but they don't feel remorse or regret.