Ex-`Grey's' star cites racism for firing

[White Rain]

It isn't fair to you. And if you want to vent about racism being used as an excuse, I think you're entitled. It's those of us who are barely affected who should calm down on the subject.

I really don't think you, myself, or anyone knows who is or is not affected by things like this. So perhaps we should all speak whats on our mind, whether we like it or not, and just agree to disagree.
And yes I do mean myself as well. After the Imus threads I have tried to keep my mouth closed on subjects like this because of my tendecy to get upset and start ranting and raving.
As prejudiced as I probably sound I'm really not. While I don't have any close black friends now I have in the past, some of them have played the race card, some of them haven't. I was even close enough to one of them to wear my rebel flag t-shirt around her...I didn't and don't wear it to be offensive, and nor did she ever take it that way. And on the flip side, I once took her to a club with me, she took one look around and asked "Am I going to get hung in here?" She didn't say it to be offensive, and I didn't take it to be offensive...we had a good laugh about it.
When I do say things such as "every" and "all" I do mean it in a broad term...it's just my anger in the moment leading me to write those terms.
But honestly, the reason this subject keeps coming up so much is because it keeps happening...as another poster stated, there have been 4 instances lately of black celebs playing the race card.
I would like ANYONE ON HERE to name for me ONE white celeb who has ever played the race card. I can't think of even one, and I am truly hoping someone can prove me wrong. Imus made improper comments about black girls, and got fired...Never once did he blame his firing on being white. IW made improper comments about gays, gets fired, and blames it on race.
Also another thing...while it is true ANYONE can play the race card...but you rarely EVER hear of a white person doing it, and because of that I would think if a white person WAS claiming it it would be all over the news, because of the fact that you don't ever hear about it happening that much. But we don't hear about it...mainly we hear about the blacks claiming it and because it seems to be happening more than usual I get angry and thats where my broad terms and rants and raves start coming in.

 

[Olivia77]

So there you have it: THREE-COUNT-'EM-THREE people out of 30+ MILLION African Americans. And I will repeat: we don't have have all the facts in any of even these three cases.

Oh Nova, you know it's impossible to debate such a fallacious argument.

IE, I know xxx men who have done xxx, therefore all men are bad/rude/violent. Yes, faulty reasoning at its best.
I do admire you for trying though. :blowkiss:

 

[Nova]

Nova, from what I have read/heard on tv the shows ratings went down after his comments. The fact is probably alot of gay people quit watching the show after he said what he did. They probably lost alot of viewers, probably got alot of emails and such saying that they would not be watching again unless he was terminated. They probably feel their ratings would go back up without him on the show.

If they thought their ratings were affected, that would do it, no question. But I'll be very surprised if "a lot of" gay people stopped watching the show over those remarks. No, they weren't pleasant, but they also aren't uncommon. The show handled the matter in an appropriate manner. (If the show had publicly supported Washington, that would be quite different.)

Last I heard, though, the show remains one of the top hits on TV and is launching a spin-off.

I don't really care is you think it's "strange" that I say I am sick of the race card being played. Maybe I have had the race card played personally to me, and as a matter of fact I have. If you'd like the lowdown on what happened I'll be more than glad to tell you, but if not lets just suffice it to say that playing the race card CAN be a problem for/towards any of us.

Yes, and I've been the target myself. So what? We all have encountered unpleasant people who will use any unfair tactic if they feel thwarted. But that doesn't make this particular tactic common, nor does it mean every charge of racism is untrue. (I assume we are using "race card" to mean an untrue and unfair charge of racism.)

I worked with a woman who did nothing, as a rule, but knew to invoke pregnancy whenever they were about to fire her. (Some of the claimed pregnancies produced children, others not.) She was very smart about this. There's no reason for me to jump to the conclusion that all women or all people with disabilities (I know pregnancy isn't a disability, but some of the same laws apply) are lying, lazy or making excuses.

If you had a problem with someone, you'll be better off dealing with that individual (even if only in your own mind) rather than inflating the problem and claiming it is epidemic. Since we don't work for the producer or network, there's no reason we need to be emotionally involved with Isaiah Washington.

 

[Olivia77]

It almost seems as if you are just trying to be argumentative.
We have cited only 3 examples of prominent and well known people, 2 of which have been documented as saying what is happening to them is only because of their color (Snipes & Fox).

I could give the names of every black/brown person I know who I've actually heard say something happened or was done to them just because they were black, Mexican/hispanic,Asian....but those names wouldn't mean anything to you or anyone else here. Even my own cousins have said that they didn't get jobs just because they are NA and not white. They weren't qualified for the jobs, but that "couldn't" have been the real reason they didn't get it right?

IW may well be trying to spin things his way too. I don't believe any HR rep would tell someone they were fired because they were an intimidating/threatening black man.

Most workplaces have zero tolerance for sexual harassment and that is exactly what his comments about TR Knight were.

I believe the point he was trying to make was that it makes zero sense to make an assumption about an entire race of people based on limited interactions.

Some of us around here are just tired of the us versus them threads that seem to be popping up lately. Seriously, there have been too many and it's getting old.

FWIW I know quite a few black/brown/pink/white/orange people who have NEVER played the race card.

 

[Nova]

I really don't think you, myself, or anyone knows who is or is not affected by things like this. So perhaps we should all speak whats on our mind, whether we like it or not, and just agree to disagree.

My point was just that if someone has a job where s/he deals with claims of racism all the time and finds many of those claims to be false, then I understand the use of the phrase "sick and tired." But for the rest of us, it's an awfully strong emotional response to something that doesn't affect us directly and all the time.

The poster to whom I responded said racism is brought up whenever she deals with a student. I'm sure that gets very fatiguing.

However terrible your personal experience was, you are "sick and tired" of something that doesn't concern you and that is only being discussed because you brought it up. Are you sick and tired or damn glad to a couple of celebrities gave you a chance to bring up the subject?

 

[White Rain]

Evidence? Sure, you're entitled to your opinion on this, but the rest of us have a right to ask the basis of that opinion. How many is "a lot"? Where do you get your figures?

My evidence is the tv and news papers my dear.

 

[Masterj]

My evidence is the tv and news papers my dear.

Riiiiiight. Because the media is so trustworthy and forthcoming with the truth. The media is NEVER sensationalistic.

 

[White Rain]

If they thought their ratings were affected, that would do it, no question. But I'll be very surprised if "a lot of" gay people stopped watching the show over those remarks. No, they weren't pleasant, but they also aren't uncommon. The show handled the matter in an appropriate manner. (If the show had publicly supported Washington, that would be quite different.)

Last I heard, though, the show remains one of the top hits on TV and is launching a spin-off.



Yes, and I've been the target myself. So what? We all have encountered unpleasant people who will use any unfair tactic if they feel thwarted. But that doesn't make this particular tactic common, nor does it mean every charge of racism is untrue. (I assume we are using "race card" to mean an untrue and unfair charge of racism.)

I worked with a woman who did nothing, as a rule, but knew to invoke pregnancy whenever they were about to fire her. (Some of the claimed pregnancies produced children, others not.) She was very smart about this. There's no reason for me to jump to the conclusion that all women or all people with disabilities (I know pregnancy isn't a disability, but some of the same laws apply) are lying, lazy or making excuses.

If you had a problem with someone, you'll be better off dealing with that individual (even if only in your own mind) rather than inflating the problem and claiming it is epidemic. Since we don't work for the producer or network, there's no reason we need to be emotionally involved with Isaiah Washington.

I went back and added to my post if you'd care to read. And I don't ever remember saying IW affected me personally at all.

 

[White Rain]

I believe the point he was trying to make was that it makes zero sense to make an assumption about an entire race of people based on limited interactions.

Some of us around here are just tired of the us versus them threads that seem to be popping up lately. Seriously, there have been too many and it's getting old.

FWIW I know quite a few black/brown/pink/white/orange people who have NEVER played the race card.

If this subject is getting old for anyone, they don't have to read or respond. It's not like anyone is making this stuff up, this stuff is in the news, if there are too many it's none of our faults.

 

[Nova]

I went back and added to my post if you'd care to read. And I don't ever remember saying IW affected me personally at all.

He made you '"sick and tired."

I did see your addition and I will respond. But I gotta run for a bit.

 

[White Rain]

Riiiiiight. Because the media is so trustworthy and forthcoming with the truth. The media is NEVER sensationalistic.

And celebrites are NEVER sensationalistic right either? Like Mr. IW himself?

 

[White Rain]

He made you '"sick and tired."

I did see your addition and I will respond. But I gotta run for a bit.

I didn't say HE, I said "the race card crap is making me sick."

 

[OrdinaryLife]

In my very humble opinion, this guy screwed up concerning his behaviour and attitude towards those he worked with and then some. I could give a poop if he is black, white, hispanic, gay, or whatever... The man screwed up and is using the race card via media (and probably whatever souce he can) because he lost a high paying/.profile TV job.

He did this to himself. This kind of stuff is what truly hurts those who are a minority. Does he care? No. Yeah, what a guy.

We'll see him in a Lifetime movie soon.

Jerk.

Again, IMVHO...

 

[Masterj]

And celebrites are NEVER sensationalistic right either? Like Mr. IW himself?

LOL - I didn't say that. If you ever read any of my posts, I frequently talk about how celebrities know how to work the media to serve their purposes.

I am truly fascinated with the fact that you continuously start threads about how irrate you are over something a black person has done. I think it is sad that you don't see anything wrong with stereotyping a group of people based on the actions of some of them. If another country looked at America and judged all of us based on what they have seen in Paris Hilton, Britney Spears or Lindsey Lohan (and the hundreds more like them), we would all be outraged and trying to fight that misconception every chance we could.

I will keep saying it to you until I am blue in the face that EVERY group of people has their fair share of morons. But I won't be irresponsible and assume that if some people are morons, then all are morons. But that is the difference right there I suppose. I see it as a "we" instead of an "us" and "them."

 

[White Rain]

LOL - I didn't say that. If you ever read any of my posts, I frequently talk about how celebrities know how to work the media to serve their purposes.

I am truly fascinated with the fact that you continuously start threads about how irrate you are over something a black person has done. I think it is sad that you don't see anything wrong with stereotyping a group of people based on the actions of some of them. If another country looked at America and judged all of us based on what they have seen in Paris Hilton, Britney Spears or Lindsey Lohan (and the hundreds more like them), we would all be outraged and trying to fight that misconception every chance we could.

I will keep saying it to you until I am blue in the face that EVERY group of people has their fair share of morons. But I won't be irresponsible and assume that if some people are morons, then all are morons. But that is the difference right there I suppose. I see it as a "we" instead of an "us" and "them."

I don't continuously "start threads about how irate I am over something a black person has done." I POST on them. I have started two threads on the racial issue lately, that being the Wesley Snipes and Vivica Fox threads, and on those two I only posted the story, I never even gave one single opionion.
But when I do want to post my opinion, I will. You don't have to like it, I don't have to like yours.

 

[ziggy]

Not all gay people do use such language with one another, though some do. Not all African Americans call one another , but there is a subculture that does. In both cases, the practice is controversial and none to easy to explain.

(I'm going to confine my remarks to gay usage, since I'm most familiar with that. I have read extensively about similar usages in racial subcultures, but as an outsider as a rule, there's no reason for me to go into that here. Except to say I have experienced Southerners calling one another "rednecks" with fondness and even pride, while taking umbrage at being called "rednecks" by outsiders.)

One gay use of the word "" is as you suggest: to indicate someone who exhibits the worst stereotypical traits associated with gay men. This is not a nice use of the word, but it isn't the same as a straight person calling a gay person a . I will admit to having used the word in this way myself, but very rarely and only alone with my partner in reference to somebody we both knew well. I probably shouldn't do even that. But in this case, the word implies somebody is aiding our oppressors by confirming their worst slurs.

The more common (and confusing to outsiders, apparently) use of the word is as a term of affection between friends. I don't use it in this manner, but I understand those who do. Essentially, they call each other "" because doing so affirms their solidarity in the face of outside hostility. It's a "we are in this together" sort of thing.

A third use is related to the previous one: using "" as political self-empowerment. Some, particularly the more politically radical, feel that by appropriating the worst word employed by the majority, a minority takes control of the word and renders it less harmful. Usually, people use the word this way with regard to themselves, as in, "Yeah, I'm a . What's it to you!?" I can imagine using the word this way, but I'd have to be sorely provoked. (One hears the word "queer" used quite often in this manner, though it bothers old-timers who remember when that word was the worst. "Queer" has been so successfully appropriated by politicos that it is practically mainstream. But straight people should probably think long and hard about who is listening before using it.)

(And of course there are a few, very sad cases of gay men who use gay slurs because they hate themselves. I like to think these cases are rarer these days.)

There are probably other examples, but those are the main usages I can think of and what they mean.

As for "everyone should be allowed to say it, or no one should," I think adults of even average intelligence should be able to understand that words change meaning depending on context. Even simple words. "Flip" means one thing if I'm talking about a gymnast and something very different if I'm talking about a comedian, and something else again if I'm talking about a short order cook. Everybody gets that.

It shouldn't be any more difficult to understand that two black men calling each other "" does NOT give me permission to use that word.

(Obviously, you have a special relationship with your gay friends and your saying "butch it up" in that context doesn't offend them and I'm sure it wouldn't offend me. But President Bush saying the same thing to Rep. Barney Frank would be very offensive. Different context.)

Of course, people are human and make mistakes. I'm not a big fan of condemning people to exile and eternal damnation because they misspeak. But they should be called on their error by any right-thinking person, so they can learn better.

Intelligent, well articulated - thank you!

You said in regards to using a slur, "But in this case, the word implies somebody is aiding our oppressors by confirming their worst slurs."

I think in most cases a slur is used on someone because they are acting in a manner that confirms the worst of the stereotype and perpetuate it. In some cases people are just ignorant bigots, so not only does the context of the way in which the word is used, but the actual character of those who use it and how they really live their lives make a difference.

I think if you use it in private it's just blowing off steam. I wouldn't beat myself up about that and I'll admit I've done it. In the big scheme, I would never lump a group of people together and think they were all bad because of their sex, race, religion etc.

I can't condone using slurs on people to their face to put them down, but people make mistakes and I agree that they should be called on it, but not necessarily punished for it.

People can and should learn by being called out and we all bear a responsibility to act as good examples both by NOT engaging in that bad behavior, AND by pointing out that it is simply bad manners, which is severely lacking in our new society. I think shame on you is better than attacking someone as a racist or a homophobe everytime it happens.

Nova, I really appreciate your well thought-out and neutral toned response. I do love my gay friends. They bring such color and charm to my life. I sometimes take issue with the political stances and methods of their processes and we discuss it, but I would never think they are less human. They know me, know I'm loving but hard-headed, sometimes opinionated and sometimes even wrong but they also know I'd do anything for them.

 

[Nova]

Thanks for the thoughtful reading and response, ziggy. It alternately frustrates and amuses me when people refuse to accept that words change meaning in different social contexts. There were cultures in Southeast Asia where the lower classes spoke one language to their "betters" and an entirely different language to one another. Medieval Japanese women had a language all their own that was only spoken between women.

If those "primitives" (that's a joke) can understand "social context," surely we advanced Moderns can!

You said in regards to using a slur, "But in this case, the word implies somebody is aiding our oppressors by confirming their worst slurs."

I think in most cases a slur is used on someone because they are acting in a manner that confirms the worst of the stereotype and perpetuate it. In some cases people are just ignorant bigots, so not only does the context of the way in which the word is used, but the actual character of those who use it and how they really live their lives make a difference.

In the passage I highlighted, it sounds a bit like you are blaming the victim, no doubt unintentionally. In my experience, the use of racial, sexual and homophobic slurs has much more to do with the speaker than with the target. I don't really hang out with people who use the word "," but when I have heard it used, it really had nothing to do with the behavior of the black person being accosted.

Even if a gay person, say, is behaving badly, a speaker remarking on the behavior has a choice of using specific language about that person, or general terms used to indict all gay people.

The difference, as you say, is character, but the character of the speaker.

 

[Nova]

I don't continuously "start threads about how irate I am over something a black person has done." I POST on them. I have started two threads on the racial issue lately, that being the Wesley Snipes and Vivica Fox threads, and on those two I only posted the story, I never even gave one single opionion.
But when I do want to post my opinion, I will. You don't have to like it, I don't have to like yours.

In fairness to Masterj, White Rain, I had the same impression that you were unusually focused on this subject. As you know, you and I agree as often as not on things, but for whatever reason, this subject appears to be an issue to you.

 

[Nova]

It almost seems as if you are just trying to be argumentative.
We have cited only 3 examples of prominent and well known people, 2 of which have been documented as saying what is happening to them is only because of their color (Snipes & Fox).

Argumentative? I? :doh: In my view, what is argumentative is the intense focus on black claims of racism and the immediate assumption (with virtually no details) that all such claims are false.

I could give the names of every black/brown person I know who I've actually heard say something happened or was done to them just because they were black, Mexican/hispanic,Asian....but those names wouldn't mean anything to you or anyone else here. Even my own cousins have said that they didn't get jobs just because they are NA and not white. They weren't qualified for the jobs, but that "couldn't" have been the real reason they didn't get it right?

Surely we can understand why people of color believe they are sometimes the victims of discrimination. THEY ARE! And surely we can understand why people of color are sometimes wrong when they perceive discrimination.

As I know you know, most discrimination doesn't come from frothing-at-the-mouth cretins as it is portrayed in the movies. Most discrimination is far more subtle (and often impossible to prove without extensive research and study of patterns). White people rarely say "I won't sell my house to blacks." It's illegal. They just wait for an offer from a white person. White people don't say "I won't hire blacks." (Again, illegal.) They probably don't even think it most of the time; they just hire the white candidate.

So naturally people of color are left to wonder what treatment is the result of racism and what comes from something else. And sometimes they will be mistaken. But often they are not. We shouldn't rush to dismiss their claims and scoff at the notion that racism persists.

Secondly, there are people of all colors who blame others rather than themselves; that isn't unique to any race.

Example:

Yesterday, there was a report on the news about an official in a neighboring town who had been reappointed to a pollution board despite having cost the city over $40,000 to settle claims of sexual harassment against him. A federal agency sued to have him dismissed, because they felt that otherwise they would be liable for any future claims. But HE CLAIMED they were only conducting a vendetta against him because he had pointed out financial waste
in the federal agency's purchasing department.

Deconstruct that story and you will find it almost precisely the same as Isaiah Washington. The difference is that harasser in my story wasn't black, so he claimed some other reason why his own actions weren't the cause of his (attempted) dismissal. Washington invoked race because it was the relevant "secret motive" available to him.

But maybe the harasser is both a creep and right about the claimed financial mismanagement. And maybe Washington is both a jerk and right about the racism behind his dismissal.

IW may well be trying to spin things his way too. I don't believe any HR rep would tell someone they were fired because they were an intimidating/threatening black man.

No, but per IW, they just told him "intimidating," he inferred the rest.

Most workplaces have zero tolerance for sexual harassment...

I know you live in LA, have you never even been to Hollywood? Seriously, the entertainment industry does tend to be much laxer about such things. I suspect Masterj is right that the "" comment was just the last straw.

 

[Nova]

...I would like ANYONE ON HERE to name for me ONE white celeb who has ever played the race card. I can't think of even one, and I am truly hoping someone can prove me wrong. Imus made improper comments about black girls, and got fired...Never once did he blame his firing on being white. IW made improper comments about gays, gets fired, and blames it on race.
Also another thing...while it is true ANYONE can play the race card...but you rarely EVER hear of a white person doing it, and because of that I would think if a white person WAS claiming it it would be all over the news, because of the fact that you don't ever hear about it happening that much. But we don't hear about it...mainly we hear about the blacks claiming it and because it seems to be happening more than usual I get angry and thats where my broad terms and rants and raves start coming in.

WR, I think you have an "issue" here, but that doesn't mean I believe you go around being unkind to anybody in real life. I don't doubt you have had and will have black friends.

White celebrities don't play the "race card" because in this country, white celebrities almost never work for black-dominated corporations. White people have sued for racial discrimination, but it is much rarer.

But you hear white celebrities playing all sorts of other cards, most notably the "I was drunk or drugged card."

In IW's account, he wasn't fired for making one homophobic remark, he was fired because people around him "felt threatened," supposedly according to an HR rep. He inferred that they felt specially threatened by him because he was a tall, outspoken black man. Whether any of that is true, we don't know. My argument is let'ss don't assume it is false, because it certainly isn't impossible.