Family battling Children’s Hospital to bring teen home for Christmas

[forthelost]

I haven't seen any of the medical records in this case, and in fact can't see them. I can listen to the parents but I am aware they have a bias. Without the medical records I can't say whether she is getting better or worse, or if either diagnosis is correct. However, this from the judge's report doesn't make the parents look very good:

While Justina was at Children's Hospital, the parents were verbally abusive to Justina's hospital providers. Family members of other patients complained that Justina's parents stated their children were being kidnapped by Children's Hospital. The parents threatened to have hospital personnel's licenses revoked. They threatened to call the F.B.I. They called hospital personnel "Nazis" and claimed the hospital was punishing and killing Justina.

Making her remain on the psychiatric ward for seven months because they fought all the potential placements doesn't look good, either.

 

[Supernovae]

In my opinion...sometimes, like I believe the case to be, in this case...shining the spot light on...really pisses the powers that be off. They dig their heels in deeper....Egos tend to be huge.

Oftentimes it turns a bad situation into an enormously worse situation. Doctors, judges and Child protective services don't take kindly to being told how to do their job, or publicly critiqued, and have orders, treatment plans, etc ignored.


One analogy, even if you believe you didn't do anything wrong...it's never a good idea to talk smack to the police that just pulled you over. The officer is the one with the power, the gun and oftentimes the ego to make your life miserable.



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Even more so. If you're a criminal suspect, the state has to prove everything, and you have a lot of protections working in your favour, so not doing their job for them and muddying the waters can work to your advantage. Here's an (albeit tongue in cheek) post from a serving detective:

http://web.archive.org/web/20140103.../2008/07/24/a-survival-guide-for-decent-folk/

In the UK our police don't have guns and, for the most part don't have Tasers either, so I suppose that makes a difference, but nevertheless.

In family court proceedings, on the other hand it's civil burden of proof, and the interests of the child are the centre point, not any rights you may have, so making yourself seem truculent and unhinged, even only marginally so, is really, really not in your interests:

http://suesspiciousminds.com/2012/08/16/what-should-you-do-if-social-services-steal-your-children/

We've had quite a few cases over here that have demonstrated that the reporting of child protection proceedings by the press, even where the facts are basically correct (which isn't always the case), the framing of those facts and omissions of pertinent information can distort the reality of the case beyond all recognition:

http://www.headoflegal.com/2013/12/...sarian-case-a-masterclass-in-flat-earth-news/

Apart from the brief judgement that has been released, every single "fact" in the public domain, and quoted on this thread, about this girls condition and treatment, past and present, has been put their by the parents. The first and last thing we can say about this case is that we do not know the full facts.

 

[jjenny]

I haven't seen any of the medical records in this case, and in fact can't see them. I can listen to the parents but I am aware they have a bias. Without the medical records I can't say whether she is getting better or worse, or if either diagnosis is correct. However, this from the judge's report doesn't make the parents look very good:



Making her remain on the psychiatric ward for seven months because they fought all the potential placements doesn't look good, either.

Parents wanted her released back into their custody and not into another placement. But I guess judge can blame them for fighting.
Correct behavior after child is taken by DCF would obviously be to play dead. That's what DCF and the court clearly want. Complete obedience and no protests of any kind.

 

[MyBelle]

These parents are between rock and hard place. They can keep quiet, and they were mostly quiet under the gag order. They still didn't get the child back.
And they do have rights under constitution to free speech and assembly. So them using these rights shouldn't be a reason to not give them their child back.

Free speech isn't absolute. Actions can have consequences. The child at the center of this case also has rights that require protection.

JMO

 

[jjenny]

Free speech isn't absolute. Actions can have consequences. The child at the center of this case also has rights that require protection.

JMO

Does she have a right to say where she wants to be? She is nearly 16, obviously she can form her own opinion on whether she wants to be in a secure psychiatric ward or someplace else. DCF is clearly ignoring what this child wants to do.

 

[jjenny]

Not what I said. I was answering the claim that Mass "doesn't have to prove anything". Agree with the judge's decision or not, that claim is factually untrue.

Further, id just like to point out that, for your scenario to be true, we have to believe that not just the judge, but:

Doctor(s?) at Tufts
Multiple docs at Children's Hospital
MA DCF
CT DCF
justina's current facility

are all wrong on more than one occasion, or involved in some outrageous conspiracy to kidnap this girl and do medical experiments on her.

I'm sorry but on the basis of "keep it simple" alone, it's far less logical to believe all that than to accept that we only know half the story (as filtered through the parents and various agitating groups), and to guess that maybe, just maybe, there is a good reason for all of the above entities to have found something questionable going on.

You pulled in some groups but they don't all belong in your list.
Doctors at Tufts, namely Dr. Korson, were treating her prior to her being admitted to BCH. I don't see Dr. Korson demanding she be taken by DCF, do you?
She came to BCH to see Dr. Flores. She didn't get to see him, but he hasn't demanded she be taken by DCF.
CT DCF refuses to take the case, so if resident of their state is abused, why wouldn't they take the case?
Justina's current facility hasn't said anything publically, so how do you know what they want?
By the way her current facility is not designed for a child with complex medical needs, so I have no clue as to what she is doing there to begin with.

 

[Gardenlady]

CT DCF found the parents to be negligent, yet still declined to take her case.

While Justina was still in CT, doctors alerted about her parents. Not Korson.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I haven't seen any of the medical records in this case, and in fact can't see them. I can listen to the parents but I am aware they have a bias. Without the medical records I can't say whether she is getting better or worse, or if either diagnosis is correct. However, this from the judge's report doesn't make the parents look very good:



Making her remain on the psychiatric ward for seven months because they fought all the potential placements doesn't look good, either.

It also looks horrible that instead of spending their precious little visiting time actually with their daughter, they chose to spend it fighting with everyone else....in front of their daughter.




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[Linda7NJ]

Even more so. If you're a criminal suspect, the state has to prove everything, and you have a lot of protections working in your favour, so not doing their job for them and muddying the waters can work to your advantage. Here's an (albeit tongue in cheek) post from a serving detective:



http://web.archive.org/web/20140103.../2008/07/24/a-survival-guide-for-decent-folk/



In the UK our police don't have guns and, for the most part don't have Tasers either, so I suppose that makes a difference, but nevertheless.



In family court proceedings, on the other hand it's civil burden of proof, and the interests of the child are the centre point, not any rights you may have, so making yourself seem truculent and unhinged, even only marginally so, is really, really not in your interests:



http://suesspiciousminds.com/2012/08/16/what-should-you-do-if-social-services-steal-your-children/



We've had quite a few cases over here that have demonstrated that the reporting of child protection proceedings by the press, even where the facts are basically correct (which isn't always the case), the framing of those facts and omissions of pertinent information can distort the reality of the case beyond all recognition:



http://www.headoflegal.com/2013/12/...sarian-case-a-masterclass-in-flat-earth-news/



Apart from the brief judgement that has been released, every single "fact" in the public domain, and quoted on this thread, about this girls condition and treatment, past and present, has been put their by the parents. The first and last thing we can say about this case is that we do not know the full facts.

Agreed.

The post you quoted of mine does not reflect my current opinion.

I actually started on the other side of this argument very early on. That was my mistake and a knee jerk reaction.

I am now in full support of the judges decision.



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[jjenny]

CT DCF found the parents to be negligent, yet still declined to take her case.

While Justina was still in CT, doctors alerted about her parents. Not Korson.

And that old case in CT was dismissed and child was left in parents custody.
Her new doctor (Dr. Korson) that was treating her prior to being taken to BCH was apparently satisfied with how she was progressing in her parents care.
So is Dr. Flores who moved from Tufts to BCH, and whom she came to see in BCH, but never gotten to see.
She was also under the care of psychologist who was apparently satisfied with how she was progressing while in care of her parents.
So that's a whole lot of specialists that were apparently satisfied. All appear to be highly respected and not some voodoo doctors.

 

[jjenny]

It also looks horrible that instead of spending their precious little visiting time actually with their daughter, they chose to spend it fighting with everyone else....in front of their daughter.




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I imagine they are very frustrated at the whole situation.
Frankly, who wouldn't be in this situation?

 

[MyBelle]

Parents wanted her released back into their custody and not into another placement. But I guess judge can blame them for fighting.
Correct behavior after child is taken by DCF would obviously be to play dead. That's what DCF and the court clearly want. Complete obedience and no protests of any kind.

What the court wants is exactly what it has done: to protect the child from abusive parents. Correct behavior after a child is taken by DCF is to persuade a Judge you are a "fit" parent. Being verbally abusive toward adult caregivers in front of witnesses is not an indication of "fitness" it is an indication you are abusive to adults and potentially dangerous to the child because you insist you are smarter than multiple doctors.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/u/unfit-parent/

A parent may be deemed unfit if they have been abusive, neglected, or failed to provide proper care for the child.

 

[Gardenlady]

And that old case in CT was dismissed and child was left in parents custody.
Her new doctor (Dr. Korson) that was treating her prior to being taken to BCH was apparently satisfied with how she was progressing in her parents care.
So is Dr. Flores who moved from Tufts to BCH, and whom she came to see in BCH, but never gotten to see.
She was also under the care of psychologist who was apparently satisfied with how she was progressing while in care of her parents.
So that's a whole lot of specialists that were apparently satisfied. All appear to be highly respected and not some voodoo doctors.

Is this to imply that the doctors at Boston Children's are "voodoo doctors" now?

 

[MyBelle]

Does she have a right to say where she wants to be? She is nearly 16, obviously she can form her own opinion on whether she wants to be in a secure psychiatric ward or someplace else. DCF is clearly ignoring what this child wants to do.

She isn't an adult. The court has custody and the "right" to make decisions about care and custody. That's the way the law has worked for years. Most children don't want to be in state custody whether it is foster care or jail.

 

[jjenny]

The child herself, by the way, clearly wants to go home.
Not that anyone listens.

"Justina repeatedly told staff she wanted to go home, but the decision did not rest only with Children’s. A hospital spokesman said the facility “seeks to transfer patients to less medically intensive environments as soon as they are medically ready and a location is available.” The exact location however, would be up to the state child protection agency."

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...l-uncertain/Y7qvYTGsq8QklkxUZvuUgP/story.html

 

[Linda7NJ]

"In addition, a single blood or urine lab test with normal results does not rule out a mitochondrial disease. This is true for organic acids, lactic acid, carnitine analysis and amino acid analysis. Even muscle biopsies are not 100% accurate."



http://www.umdf.org/site/c.8qKOJ0MvF7LUG/b.7934633/k.E5DC/Getting_a_Diagnosis.htm

Do you believe she's only had one blood test?




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[jjenny]

Do you believe she's only had one blood test?




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How many do you think BCH run in a couple of days prior to rendering "somatoform" diagnosis?

 

[Linda7NJ]

The child herself, by the way, clearly wants to go home.

Not that anyone listens.



"Justina repeatedly told staff she wanted to go home, but the decision did not rest only with Children’s. A hospital spokesman said the facility “seeks to transfer patients to less medically intensive environments as soon as they are medically ready and a location is available.” The exact location however, would be up to the state child protection agency."



http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...l-uncertain/Y7qvYTGsq8QklkxUZvuUgP/story.html

Irrelevant. IMO all horribly abused children want to go home. It's all they've ever known.


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[jjenny]

She isn't an adult. The court has custody and the "right" to make decisions about care and custody. That's the way the law has worked for years. Most children don't want to be in state custody whether it is foster care or jail.

She hasn't done anything to deserve to be in jail.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The child herself, by the way, clearly wants to go home.

Not that anyone listens.



"Justina repeatedly told staff she wanted to go home, but the decision did not rest only with Children’s. A hospital spokesman said the facility “seeks to transfer patients to less medically intensive environments as soon as they are medically ready and a location is available.” The exact location however, would be up to the state child protection agency."



http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...l-uncertain/Y7qvYTGsq8QklkxUZvuUgP/story.html

And her own parents thwarted every single attempt for that to happen. She could have been residing 20 minutes from her home and working toward complete reunification.
Her parents didn't want that.


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