Fencesitters & Not Guilty Post Here - THREAD NO. 2

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exactly April - the cadaver dogs is not evidence - it will probably not even be admisable in court . It is a tool that the police can use to help them find evidence . There have been many reports outling that dogs can be up 40% accurate .

Granted it can point suspicion - but that is it ,

Sure but we were not talking about "evidence" but as a fact It is a fact that the cadaver dogs smelled "death" in all those items. Are the Mc Cann defenders ready to accept that or will they continue spinning around with semantics?
 
I dont really understand the science behind "death smells".If you handle a dead body and then touch another item does the smell transfer or does the item have to come in direct contact with the body? And do you have to handle the body after 2 hours for the smell to be apparent to the dogs?:confused:
 
I dont really understand the science behind "death smells".If you handle a dead body and then touch another item does the smell transfer or does the item have to come in direct contact with the body? And do you have to handle the body after 2 hours for the smell to be apparent to the dogs?:confused:

Hi Daffodil,

Here is a good little article: http://advancek9sar.com/work.htm

The main thing to remember is the constant shedding/release of chemicals that happens with people, dead or alive.

The dogs can scent these chemicals in the air, after they have fallen to the ground, underwater, etc. So, to answer your question....all of the above.

I think there are variables in the 2 hour timetable. I have read that certain chemicals that are released immediately upon death can be detected by the dogs.

The dogs alerting is not considered evidence, just a signal of a "trail" to follow.

Hope that makes sense.
 
Thanks Colomom-clear as mud lol,god I'm thick!!!!!!!!!!! So if the dogs alerted on the car keys the inference is Madeleine was hidden and then retrieved from wherever some time later when they hired the car?
 
Sure but we were not talking about "evidence" but as a fact It is a fact that the cadaver dogs smelled "death" in all those items. Are the Mc Cann defenders ready to accept that or will they continue spinning around with semantics?

Sorry but this is crucial - It is a fact that the dogs smelt something - but we do not know 100% or anything close to what they smelt - they are dogs . Sure they have been trained but this is not an exact science - dogs pick up lots of scents and sure have had some success - but they have also had failures Judges in the States have thrown out anything to do with cadaver scents because it is unreliable - it is a pointer for the ploce to find proper evidence .

It is not a fact that the dogs even smelt death because dogs cant communicate they cant tell us .
 
Sorry but this is crucial - It is a fact that the dogs smelt something - but we do not know 100% or anything close to what they smelt - they are dogs . Sure they have been trained but this is not an exact science - dogs pick up lots of scents and sure have had some success - but they have also had failures Judges in the States have thrown out anything to do with cadaver scents because it is unreliable - it is a pointer for the ploce to find proper evidence .

It is not a fact that the dogs even smelt death because dogs cant communicate they cant tell us .
The British dogs Eddie & Keela that were in Portugal are highly trained, one to react to a cadaver smell, the other to blood. The dogs were successful in locating the body of Attracta Harron murdered & missing for a long time in Northern Ireland & in finding blood on the culprits car even after he burned it.
 
The british dog is highly trained to react to a cadaver smell & was successful in locating the body of Attracta Harron murdered & missing for a long time in Northern Ireland.

sure it is highly trained - but it is still an animal - ok it has had succes before - but it has not found madeline - we do not know what it reacted to because it cant tell us - the police can use it to help them go further , but that is the extent of it

They had highly trained dogs out the day she dissappeared - but nothing and if you go with the murder theory - she had to be in the vicinity
 
sure it is highly trained - but it is still an animal - ok it has had succes before - but it has not found madeline - we do not know what it reacted to because it cant tell us - the police can use it to help them go further , but that is the extent of it

They had highly trained dogs out the day she dissappeared - but nothing and if you go with the murder theory - she had to be in the vicinity


Yes but these dogs did react i.e find the smell of a cadaver in the apartment & on items of clothing belonging to Kate as well as on Cuddle cat, the car keys & the boot of the car indicating that there had been a body.
 
Sorry but this is crucial - It is a fact that the dogs smelt something - but we do not know 100% or anything close to what they smelt - they are dogs . Sure they have been trained but this is not an exact science - dogs pick up lots of scents and sure have had some success - but they have also had failures Judges in the States have thrown out anything to do with cadaver scents because it is unreliable - it is a pointer for the ploce to find proper evidence .

It is not a fact that the dogs even smelt death because dogs cant communicate they cant tell us .

Hi Gord,

Of course, I only know so much, not everything, but it really bothers me that it was reported that the dogs alerted to the things that they did, without any report of them alerting to something that would have had nothing to do with the McCanns. These dogs are very highly trained Gord, there are many websites that detail their training and explain how they rarely get confused about what they are alerting to. Communication is not only accomplished by speaking words. Eddie and Keela absolutely deserve the benefit of the doubt, they are the best in the world.

The dogs that the PJ brought to the Ocean Club on May 3rd-4th were sniffer dogs that were trained to track the scent of a person using their clothing or other personal items. These dogs did track her scent (reportedly) to another apartment and I even read that they alerted to the pool area at Murat's villa. They also tracked her scent to a garbage bin by the supermarket and down to the beach. They were not cadaver dogs or blood dogs (completely different training) and would not have been able to alert to a corpse. AND if, as I have always thought, Maddie's body was moved/buried/hidden somewhere away from the resort and say someone took some of her clothing and then walked around Praia da Luz.....

The last thing to think about is the fact that the death scent could have come from someone who touched say an item of clothing on the body and then touched the car keys, cuddle cat, the jeans. Or the items in question were in close proximity to a body for a period of time in order to come in contact (via air) with those chemicals. The chemicals that the dogs alert to are microscopic, transference is definitely possible.

It amazes me how people discount these dogs, to me, their findings were the straw, so to speak.
 
Plus...they have no hidden agenda, they are just dogs. They do not know about theories or have a stand of whether the Mc Canns are innocent or not. ;)
They smelled a body and all over the Mc Cann's stuff!
 
When I found out it was O'Brien's apartment where the PJ tracer dogs found the scent of Madeleine, I did post that here. Nothing was made of that because she did visit there and their work had nothing to do with cadavers. I had not remembered that they identified Murat's pool. These dogs were also pointing at the parking area around the church. Murat & O'Brien, Murat & O'Brien. Residences within 2 blocks of one another in Exeter. O'Brien moved away when he returned to England.
 
When I found out it was O'Brien's apartment where the PJ tracer dogs found the scent of Madeleine, I did post that here. Nothing was made of that because she did visit there and their work had nothing to do with cadavers. I had not remembered that they identified Murat's pool. These dogs were also pointing at the parking area around the church. Murat & O'Brien, Murat & O'Brien. Residences within 2 blocks of one another in Exeter. O'Brien moved away when he returned to England.

I am here with you Tuba....

I have always wondered about Murat and how he might possibly be connected to this mess. I am not convinced we know all there is to know in that direction.

If you were RM and you had decided to help the McCanns...

Once the Tapas "3" decided to confront you at PJ headquarters....and you got the impression that this was being pinned on you, and all the media was pointing fingers at you....if you had helped out that night....

Must have been a BOATLOAD of money paid to hold one's tongue OR....he is completely innocent.

You decide.
 
Murat has not had his arguido status lifted & there are still suspicions that he may have helped to hide the body. I too am not convinced of Murats innocence & the ties to Exeter may well be too much of a coincidence!
 
Murat deals in real property as a vocation but I'm not sure he is successful at it. He got back to Portugal just before the doctors began their holiday, I think four days before. O'Brien had gone to the Algarve one month before in order to secure a place, purportedly. He didn't stay, of course, but just reconnoitered the area. So many coincidences---but they could be totally innocent. Murat said v. little in his recent statements, nor could he due to his status and the secrecy imposed. I hope O'Brien does come forward. I think he knows there is public suspicion surrounding him and wants to influence opinion more favorably. There is a sense also that he resents the position he has been placed in by everyone, including the PJ.
 
If O'Brien has nothing to do with this, then he must feel incredibly resentful at being placed in such a position.

Same with Murat.

Although, I have to say, going to "check out" the vacation destination before actually booking--what a luxury to most working class stiffs--that is an awfully nice thing to be able to do.
 
I cannot conceive of how anyone in this day & age would feel the need to fly somewhere to reconnoitre a property. Seems totally superfluous & suspicious to me. Mega information is available on the internet, noone does this when booking a holiday!
Now I am a detail freak when I book holidays, I email the resort, ask questions & ascertain that everything I want will be in place, flying out there first would never occur to me!
 
Sure but we were not talking about "evidence" but as a fact It is a fact that the cadaver dogs smelled "death" in all those items. Are the Mc Cann defenders ready to accept that or will they continue spinning around with semantics?
SleuthMom there's no spinning or semantics. We were talking about "evidence".....which is important if you are a suspect!!
This particular topic started with posts 185 and 186.
 
If O'Brien has nothing to do with this, then he must feel incredibly resentful at being placed in such a position.

Same with Murat.

Although, I have to say, going to "check out" the vacation destination before actually booking--what a luxury to most working class stiffs--that is an awfully nice thing to be able to do.

Your statement just rang a bell with me and a new train of thought. Perhaps there are certain behaviors that some perps follow. I say this because William Bradfield went "in person" to secure lodging for the weekend Susan Rheinart was murdered and her children went missing forever. Bear with me folks 'cause I'm wondering if there is a certain convoluted path devious minds follow - a murder path of sorts.

Don't hang me, just an idea.
 
I am here with you Tuba....

I have always wondered about Murat and how he might possibly be connected to this mess. I am not convinced we know all there is to know in that direction.

If you were RM and you had decided to help the McCanns...

Once the Tapas "3" decided to confront you at PJ headquarters....and you got the impression that this was being pinned on you, and all the media was pointing fingers at you....if you had helped out that night....

Must have been a BOATLOAD of money paid to hold one's tongue OR....he is completely innocent.

You decide.

I do not want anyone jumping on me for what I am going to say :( I HATE to think about it BUT is there a possibility that Murrat, Gerry, O' Brien and who knows who else are all involved in Maddie's disappearance because this kid was somehow sexually abused/exploited by them and that's why everyone is covering each other's butt?
 
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