FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2

[HMSHood]

Not to mention the following...

In 2005, George Zimmerman was twice accused of either criminal misconduct or violence.

That July, Zimmerman — 21 at the time — was at a bar near the University of Central Florida when a friend was arrested by state alcohol agents on suspicion of serving underage drinkers, according to an arrest report.

Zimmerman was talking with his friend, became profane and pushed an agent who tried to escort him away, the report said. Authorities said he was arrested after a short struggle.

Charged with resisting arrest without violence, he avoided conviction by entering a pretrial-diversion program, something common for first-time offenders.

A month later, court records show, a woman filed a petition for an injunction against Zimmerman, citing domestic violence. It's unclear what led to the petition, but Zimmerman responded by filing a petition of his own the following day.


Also of note from this article is this...

Capital One accused Zimmerman of failing to pay more than $1,000. He settled with the company for $2,135.82, records show, to cover his debts with interest, as well as attorney and court costs. However, the credit-card company soon reported that Zimmerman wasn't making the payments he had agreed to.

and last but certainly not least....
Records show Zimmerman is not the owner of the townhome where he lives in the gated Sanford community.

So it appears that Mr. Zimmerman is protecting a neighborhood in which he doesn't even own the property.

http://www.ky3.com/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-20120320,0,3736784.story?page=1

Sounds like a violent and irresponsible person.


Trayvon Martin: Who is crime-watch volunteer George Zimmerman?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...t-zimmerman-domestic-violence-online-petition

Little is publicly known about the 28-year-old from Virginia who attended Seminole State College and aspired to become a law-enforcement officer.

His father, Robert Zimmerman, told the Sentinel that George, the third of four children, is a former altar boy. And he insisted his son is not racist.

"Anybody who knows my son knows and routinely tells me that they don't believe one thing of what's reported in the media," his father said in an exclusive interview last week.

Zimmerman moved to Florida from Manassas, Va., about a decade ago with his parents, Robert and Gladys, according to records and interviews.

Former neighbors reached by the Sentinel said they remembered the family but didn't know George Zimmerman well.

"He seemed to be a good-enough kid," recalled Ron Whitis, who lived next door to the Zimmermans in Manassas, about 30 miles from Washington. "I really don't know a lot about him."
Nobody truly knew George Zimmerman until Travyon Martin died.

 

[jjenny]

This is a good point and it definitely seems to be the way LE reads this ordinance, however, I see it differently.

GZ LOST his right to stand his ground when HE became the AGGRESSOR and after LE told him to stop. So really, the only person in this situation that had a right to stand his ground was Trayvon.

Someone mentioned early on that LE was failing to read their own statute with common sense. I think that is true. No where in that statute does it say you may follow and confront an individual and then shoot them if they fail to answer the way you think they should.

LE, and many talking heads, are using this "stand your ground" as an EXCUSE for LE's failure to fully investigate and uphold the laws of the state of Florida. It is just an excuse and in my opinion, it is a really poor excuse.

Salem

PS - I'm not yelling in those caps up there, just passionately stating my opinion.

LE doesn't consider GZ following Trayvon an act of aggression because the following in itself was not illegal.

 

[annalia]

Believing something and proving it are two different things. Yes, GZ doesn't look sweet and cuddly and I am sure somebody could be scared of him if GZ followed them. But in this case they would have to prove GZ was the one who pushed first. How are they going to do it?

I'm not so sure that's what they have to prove.

We keep going around in circles about this stand your ground law. It's not the be all end all in a suspect claiming self defense.

There are experts who are also saying that the fact the GZ was in pursuit of Tray, that GZ was the aggressor, throws his self defense claim out the window.

JMHO

 

[rossva]

Do not forget also the claims "by the sound of his voice" on the 911 tapes he must have been either drinking, or under the influence of drugs.

It's amazing how many unfounded rumors and accusations are being made about Zimmerman. How it's ok to comb through his past, yet Martin's is off limits. If it turns out events unfolded exactly as Zimmerman says - he was a victim too.

I think people are so eager to have this guy arrested and charged they start making things up. Such as claiming a racial slur that apparently isn't there. Or that his parents are some big shots.

 

[SuziQ]

If grand jury meets and charges are brought then GZ would go before a judge who gets to decide if there is enough to proceed with the trial, as far as I understand.

Yes I understand that. lol.

 

[jjenny]

...
GZ saw no weapon, there was none. How does he claim self defense? If he were LE he'd be brought up on charges by now. I don't think he ever intended to murder TM but he certainly meant to shoot him. jmo

Because the law doesn't require him to see a weapon before he can use his.
It's simple as that. He can use it just because he feels "threatened."

 

[jjenny]

Do not forget also the claims "by the sound of his voice" on the 911 tapes he must have been either drinking, or under the influence of drugs.
...

Yep, how an expert can say that he sounds either drunk or high by listening to the tape is beyond my understanding.

 

[Marshmallow]

There had been 8 burglaries in the past year or so done by teenagers. GZ wasn't unrealistic to think Trayvon was up to no good.

but he didn't "think" he assumed that any black youth out at night was up to no good and that he, Mr Zimmerman had some authority so he made the choice to take the law into his own hands. had he stayed in his car and waited that precious few minutes until the real law enforcement arrived, this young man would not have been gunned down. Mr Zimmerman chose the wrong path and it is his own fault. Just because a young man of color is walking at night does not mean any self proclaimed neighborhood-watcher has a right to accost then kill them. Mr Zimmerman is fully to blame for his actions.

 

[rossva]

Why would anyone feel the need to defend themselves from someone following him? Why not just keep on walking and ignore him? As I stated upthread in my opinion, perhaps Martin thought Zimmerman did make a racial slur, turned around and came after him. becoming the agressor.

Why is it that when it comes to Tray it's constantly being called an attack?

Would Tray not have the same rights and protection to defend himself against an unknown adult who was following him? That unknown adult who took it upon himself and made the choice to pursue and innocent kid? Any bumps or bruises on GZ somehow proves that Tray was the aggressor?

How many bruises and injuries did Tray have on him?

JMHO

 

[jjenny]

I'm not so sure that's what they have to prove.

We keep going around in circles about this stand your ground law. It's not the be all end all in a suspect claiming self defense.

There are experts who are also saying that the fact the GZ was in pursuit of Tray, that GZ was the aggressor, throws his self defense claim out the window.

JMHO

But pursuit is not illegal. Police don't consider it an act of aggression in itself.

 

[mikeysmommom]

And what if they Grand Jury meets and there are charges brought? I'm not understanding your question.

I just wonder if the Grand Jury finds no cause to charge,if they feel GZ acted within the law will people be satisfied? Will all the facts come out at that time?

 

[CathyinTexas]

Since Zimmerman had moisture and grass all over his back, and a head injury to the back of his head, and bleeding from his nose, I think it's CLEAR he was in a physical confrontation and he was losing.

That may meet Florida's right to defend your life laws, I don't know. If I were in Zimmerman's position, I'd surely have used any weapon I had in my possession to survive.

There is so much we don't know. There were witnesses to the police arrival and some residents saw GZ afterward. Hopefully they will clear this up. Did it look like he had been beat up? I still say even he was, he started it, he was the aggressor and he had the advantage because he had a weapon. I suspect Trayvon was trying to keep him from shooting him.

 

[annalia]

Obviously he had a right to defend himself. The law could apply to either of the people fighting. But one who is going to use to claim self-defense it is the one that comes out alive, for obvious reasons.

Come on jjenny. Of course a dead person can't speak for themself, they're dead.

That's why an investigation is critical and not just LE taking the word of the person who killed someone.

And everything points to GZ as being the aggressor. Even his own words.

JMHO

 

[Salem]

What if the Grand Jury meets and no charges are brought against GZ?

I would say that the Grand Jury should be prepared to state why no charges are brought. If they just meet, decide and keep the basis for the decision from the public - I guarantee it will start riots.

Given what was audible without expert help in the 911 calls, in my opinion, GZ overstepped the boundaries of a neighborhood watch captain and of any "stand your ground" excuse he might come up with. The Grand Jury will need to address how the aggressor can commit murder and get away with it.

Salem

 

[Sensei]

If I may respectfully borrow your sig line here, Marshmallow...

"somethings just make you go "hmmmm" others make you say "seriously dude...really??"

Because she heard a change in his voice that means she heard the first push? I guess if you are the pusher, not the pushee, your voice doesn't change? I guess if you suddenly start walking fast, your voice doesn't change. I guess if you suddemly stop, turn around and confront some one your voice doesn't change?

IMO, this is the precise point where the self defense claim FAILS. TM did NOT approach GZ. He was persued by GZ. In that situation, a 17 yr old kid in a strange neighborhood, at night in the rain is being followed by a 28 yr old larger man. He attempts to walk faster to get away but is eventually caught up to...at this point, he asks why are you following me, and the person asks him what he is doing around here.... Which is most likely....that the young man suddenly with no warning attempts to push, hit or in some manner attack this older, larger stranger....Or that he turns to try and leave and the older larger stranger who initiated the pursuit, who left the safety of his vehicle to continue the pursuit even inspite of being told that police are on the way and advice NOT to continue pursuit, somehow attempted to detain him and a scuffle ensues ending with a 17 yr old kid shot to death.

Which is the most likely, which does your common sense tell you is the most reasonable way that this happened? I mean really,

Do you really think that the truth is that for some reason unknown to everyone this kid with no history of violence, small, and younger in a strange neighborhood would suddenly attempt to attack

Or that the older, larger person who initated and persisted in the pursuit even against advice, the person who KNEW he was carrying a loaded gun decided to attempt to forcibly detain this kid....

you don't have to have a crystal ball or be able to see the past...but if you use a modicum of common sense the Self Defense idea is absurd on it's face.

 

[daisy7]

Following "stand your ground" law, they would have to prove GZ was the one who pushed Trayvon first. The GF being on the phone did not witness it. So how are they going to prove it?

This is incorrect statement. Under "Stand Your Ground" GZ has to prove that he felt his life was in danger.

The legal question at the heart of the case involves Florida's so-called "stand your ground" law, which the legislature passed, at the behest of the National Rifle Association, in 2005. Before that time, Florida law resembled that of most other states; during confrontations, individuals had a duty to retreat rather than to respond to provocations. Under the new law, a person is allowed to use deadly force if he is in a place he has a right to be and feels reasonably threatened with serious harm.

In this case, then, the question is whether Zimmerman was in such a place and felt reasonably threatened. The 911 operator told Zimmerman to keep his distance from Martin, but Zimmerman had a right to be on the street. That's where neighborhood watch volunteers work.

Clearly, the question at the heart of the case is whether Zimmerman reasonably felt threatened. On this issue, the evidence currently seems murky. There appears to have been some sort of confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin. Police found Zimmerman with an injury to his head. Most important -- and most tragic -- the police will hear only one side of the story about this confrontation. Trayvon is not around to tell his story. The continuing investigation will surely focus on finding other witnesses.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/opinion/toobin-trayvon-martin/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

 

[Horace Finklestein]

And what pictures do we see of George Zimmerman?

A mug shot.

'Nuff said.

Because innocent people are never arrested?

 

[Sensei]

Why would anyone feel the need to defend themselves from someone following him? Why not just keep on walking and ignore him? As I stated upthread in my opinion, perhaps Martin thought Zimmerman did make a racial slur, turned around and came after him. becoming the agressor.

Talk about rampant speculation and leaps of logic....That one has leaped into the bizarre IMO

 

[annalia]

But pursuit is not illegal. Police don't consider it an act of aggression in itself.

Everything needs to be factored in. When you go after someone with a loaded weapon, when your intent is that another a****** isn't going to get away, when your advised by officials to stay put and stop pursuing, the pursuit is extremely important when someone then turns around and claims self defense.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but what else was GZ going to say? Of course he was going to say it was self defense. Don't all murderers claim it wasn't their fault?

JMHO

 

[JeannaT]

At one point in George's call, the dispatcher asks him for his condo number, and he refuses to give it because he doesn't want Trayvon to hear it and know where he lives (is how I took it).

So Trayvon was within clear earshot of Zimmerman at that time, and must have been aware he was calling LE.

Does anyone else come to that conclusion? Why would Tray then run, knowing this was a very nosy citizen who was calling LE?