FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

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  • #341
Absolutely not, I don't even believe that neighborhood watchmen should carry a gun.
But it does mean that instead of running home like his GF told him to do he just escalated the situation.

This case is a mess.

The fact is that many black men have been taught to NOT run - not because they want to be confrontational but because running is often considered to be indication of guilt.

Under ‘suspicion’: The killing of Trayvon Martin
By Jonathan Capehart

<SNIP>

You’ve heard me talk about the conversation my mom had with me before my first day at a predominantly white school. Reading about Trayvon reminded me of the list of the “don’ts” I received after my sheltered existence in Hazlet, N.J., was replaced with the reality of Newark when my mother remarried in the 1980s.

“Don’t run in public.” Lest someone think you’re suspicious.

“Don’t run while carrying anything in your hands.” Lest someone think you stole something.

“Don’t talk back to the police.” Lest you give them a reason to take you to jail or worse.

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...rayvon-martin/2011/03/04/gIQAz4F4KS_blog.html

Black men, especially black men in the South, have to deal with automatically being considered suspicious even if all they are doing is walking down the street. In a town like Sanford with a long history of racism they have to be especially careful.

Trayvon's parents probably had the same talk with him that Jonathan Capehart had with his mother, warning him of the same things. “Don’t run in public.” He'd already broken that rule when he ran from GZ initially. That could be one reason he was so worried even after he thought he'd lost the strange man in the SUV.

TM probably realized that running again would be MORE dangerous for him than walking fast, even if walking increased the chance the person stalking him might catch up to him.

This is why the Trayvon Martin case is making such a national impact. Every single black man in this country has lived with the likelihood that they will be found "suspicious while being black" no matter where they live, how they dress, what they have done - or not done - or any factor under their control. No matter how much the white population may deny this, it exists and it happens, probably every day.

This case is a mess indeed - if the Sanford Police Department had investigated the shooting thoroughly from the beginning we would not have all the questions we do. Maybe GZ was justified but we will never know. The SPD did not make sure that all the facts were documented - they used the excuse of the 'stand your ground' law to evade their responsibility.

Given the respective histories of the two individuals, I prefer to give the younger man without a police record the benefit of the doubt over the older man with a history of violence and a lack of impulse control.
 
  • #342
You know what, let's do this, let's arrest anyone who makes any kind of threat. A man was just arrested for threatening to kill the entire Sanford Police Department and the temporarily-stepped-down Police Chief's Bill Lee's family. If this is what it is going to come down to, then just start arresting those that are threatening to take the law into their own hands... but Zimmerman should be first on that list because he actually acted on it.
 
  • #343
And neither is fair or just. But the law is "innocent until proven guilty." Not guilty until proven innocent. If LE felt they did not have enough evidence to support a conviction then they were right to let GZ go. IMO, the issue is that a thorough investigation does not seem to have taken place.

The dynamics of this case are different. Zimmerman is guilty of an unjustifiable homicide until HE proves otherwise. We've already debated/discussed self-defense being an affirmative defense in another thread.

LE could not have arrived at the conclusion that there was not enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman without a complete investigation---you, yourself admit that the investigation may not have taken place.

That is what is not fair or just. When the dead are denied justice by virtue of the fact that they cannot speak any longer. Trayvon has millions of voices that the SPD was unaware of.
 
  • #344
I think the hoodie has become central because Zimmerman said that Trayvon was suspicious. As we come to find, Trayvon was doing nothing suspicious.

He could have only been suspicious because he was a young black male, and likely because of how he was dressed. JMO

IIRC, the transcripts have GZ describing what he thinks is suspicious behavior of walking around staring at houses. He only describes what TM was wearing to identify the "subject" and GZ wasn't even sure if TM was a black youth until he turned around and walked toward him. IMO, based on the transcripts it does not appear that TM was singled out, or caught GZ's attention, because he was black.

FTR, I believe GZ was in the wrong and I oppose "stand your ground" laws for this very reason.
 
  • #345
Has it occurred to anyone that Trayvon's family is in mourning and is probably not up to speaking publicly everytime somebody makes an ignorant statement? They have not tried to rile anyone to do anything. They have simply asked for justice. Maybe the Black Panthers should follow their example and wishes.
 
  • #346
YES. If what they want is justice.

You don't think they have better things to do than give them the attention they want? Heck, if that's the case, I would love for them to come here on this forum and take the time to answer some of posts here on this forum too. They want justice, right?
 
  • #347
The dynamics of this case are different. Zimmerman is guilty of an unjustifiable homicide until HE proves otherwise. We've already debated/discussed self-defense being an affirmative defense in another thread.

LE could not have arrived at the conclusion that there was not enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman without a complete investigation---you, yourself admit that the investigation may not have taken place.

That is what is not fair or just. When the dead are denied justice by virtue of the fact that they cannot speak any longer. Trayvon has millions of voices that the SPD was unaware of.

Because of "stand your ground" laws Zimmerman won't have to prove he was acting in self-defense, but prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not.
 
  • #348
You have to admit, it is hypocritical to "protest" vigilante justice with vigilante justice.


I'm not sure why you quoted me, but to keep things in context, this is not what I was discussing with the statement I made.

Stop trying to associate the Martin family with the New Black Panthers or the New Black militia. Just because they are black does not mean they subscribe to or promote the other groups' agendas.
 
  • #349
I think the hoodie has become central because Zimmerman said that Trayvon was suspicious. As we come to find, Trayvon was doing nothing suspicious.

He could have only been suspicious because he was a young black male, and likely because of how he was dressed. JMO

It didn't matter what Trayvon was wearing, Zimmerman already had the preconceived notion that all young black males were there to rob them. I fully believe that if Trayvon had been wearing pair of Khakis, a shirt and tie with a wind breaker over it, we would have the same results.
 
  • #350
There was a another case, I believe here in Florida, where a dad was shot and killed in front of his daughter after he had confronted a man yelling at a teen about skateboarding. The man who shot and killed the dad claimed "stand your ground" because the father had attacked him first. The difference is, that man was arrested right away if I am not mistaken and had to go in front of a judge. I'm not sure of the outcome, but I'm going to look it up? I know we had a thread about it here on Websleuths somewhere?

Just FYI, Trayvor Martin's is not, by far, the only "Stand Your Ground" case where an arrest was not made. Over half of these cases in Florida were treated the same way -no arrest made therefore, no trial.

To say Zimmerman was being coddled by LE because an arrest wasn't made is just a sign that people are ill-informed and the players in this case are not about to correct the public's view with facts. I would concede, that if all or the majority of these cases are white on black crime, there would be a racial element of selective apprehension - but that is not the case.
 
  • #351
It didn't matter what Trayvon was wearing, Zimmerman already had the preconceived notion that all young black males were there to rob them. I fully believe that if Trayvon had been wearing pair of Khakis, a shirt and tie with a wind breaker over it, we would have the same results.

He was on drugs too. :banghead:
 
  • #352
The dynamics of this case are different. Zimmerman is guilty of an unjustifiable homicide until HE proves otherwise. We've already debated/discussed self-defense being an affirmative defense in another thread.

LE could not have arrived at the conclusion that there was not enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman without a complete investigation---you, yourself admit that the investigation may not have taken place.

That is what is not fair or just. When the dead are denied justice by virtue of the fact that they cannot speak any longer. Trayvon has millions of voices that the SPD was unaware of.

IMO, the witch hunt that has evolved from this tragic case just makes it all the more tragic. The problem lies in the law which does not protect innocent civilians, like Trayvon, from trigger happy wannabe cops. Nothing about this case is fair. That is my point. There will be no justice in this case, one way or the other. It has been tainted by those "millions of voices" who are making misguided assumptions about what took place and why.
 
  • #353
It didn't matter what Trayvon was wearing, Zimmerman already had the preconceived notion that all young black males were there to rob them. I fully believe that if Trayvon had been wearing pair of Khakis, a shirt and tie with a wind breaker over it, we would have the same results.

BBM

And get away with it!
 
  • #354
Wait...I thought the "stand your ground law" shifted the burden of proof to the defense? :waitasec:




Sent from LG Esteem using Tapatalk
 
  • #355
Wait...I thought the "stand your ground law" shifted the burden of proof to the defense? :waitasec:




Sent from LG Esteem using Tapatalk

No, the other way around.

"Conservatives often argue that personal responsibility is the doctrine by which America will heal itself, and yet &#8220;Stand Your Ground&#8221; offers exactly the opposite. Rather than holding people accountable for taking human life and keeping the burden of proof on those citizens who choose to kill, the new standard requires society to prove that the taking of human life wasn&#8217;t necessary."

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/24/2711539/welcome-to-florida-beware-of-gunmen.html#storylink=cpy
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/24/2711539/welcome-to-florida-beware-of-gunmen.html
 
  • #356
Just FYI, Trayvor Martin's is not, by far, the only "Stand Your Ground" case where an arrest was not made. Over half of these cases in Florida were treated the same way -no arrest made therefore, no trial.

To say Zimmerman was being coddled by LE because an arrest wasn't made is just a sign that people are ill-informed and the players in this case are not about to correct the public's view with facts. I would concede, that if all or the majority of these cases are white on black crime, there would be a racial element of selective apprehension - but that is not the case.

Do you think if Tray was the son of a Sanford Police Officer he (Zimmerman) would have walked out of that station a free man that night?
 
  • #357
Just FYI, Trayvor Martin's is not, by far, the only "Stand Your Ground" case where an arrest was not made. Over half of these cases in Florida were treated the same way -no arrest made therefore, no trial.

To say Zimmerman was being coddled by LE because an arrest wasn't made is just a sign that people are ill-informed and the players in this case are not about to correct the public's view with facts. I would concede, that if all or the majority of these cases are white on black crime, there would be a racial element of selective apprehension - but that is not the case.

We have not said GZ was being coddled because he was not arrested. That is only the tip of the iceberg. They did not drug or alcohol test him, yet they did Trayvon. They attempted to change the statement of a witness to back up GZ. They did no sort of investigation at the scene. It goes on and on. We are saying GZ was coddled because he WAS coddled.
 
  • #358
I'm not sure why you quoted me, but to keep things in context, this is not what I was discussing with the statement I made.

Stop trying to associate the Martin family with the New Black Panthers or the New Black militia. Just because they are black does not mean they subscribe to or promote the other groups' agendas.

Do not put words in my mouth. I have not mentioned the Martin family in my posts. I have nothing but compassion and sympathy for TM's family and friends.
 
  • #359
Do not put words in my mouth. I have not mentioned the Martin family in my posts. I have nothing but compassion and sympathy for TM's family and friends.

You quoted the wrong post. Feel free to go back and read what was being said before you interjected.
 
  • #360
We have not said GZ was being coddled because he was not arrested. That is only the tip of the iceberg. They did not drug or alcohol test him, yet they did Trayvon. They attempted to change the statement of a witness to back up GZ. They did no sort of investigation at the scene. It goes on and on. We are saying GZ was coddled because he WAS coddled.

And he is still being coddled by the City of Sanford because they put the burglary reports for the town on the same web page dedicated to the investigation of the slaying of Martin.
 
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