GUILTY FL - Calyx, 16, & Beau Schenecker, 13, shot to death, Tampa, 27 Jan 2011 #1

[lululove1996]

My mother was in her mid-60's before menopause hit (ot: then why in the heck did it hit me at 38?!), and although that could be a factor here, is menopause enough to have provoked something so heinous? Ah, you said aggravating factor... I wonder! I'm eager to see if that's something that comes out down the road.[/QUOTE]

I agree about the hormones/menopause. Many women (in my experience and I work with HRT) are put on anti-depressants due to their depression...which may be caused by a hormonal imbalance. When I heard and saw this story and her age....I immediately thought...hormones. JMHO.

 

[Vresia]

Or maybe the depression/mental issue is being overblown. Many are treated for depression but aren't plotting out the double murder of their children. She not only premediated all of this..but she calmly waited until she could obtain the firearm she needed.

So I am reluctant to believe her mental issues rose to this level where she would be declared mentally insane when she murdered her children.

I am not persuaded that she would be found "insane" by a legal definition but I am 100% convinced her psychiatric issues had a role in this.

Thank you Pensfan & SarahW for you experienced input.

Yes, though in truth they are not only not mutually exclusive, but generally overlap... (aside from so-called "psychiatric" illnesses that are clearly organic disease.)

Yes- I didn't know how to clarify the chicken & egg factors of treatment of one leading to the other or one being a symptom of the other.

With that new information, her motor control issues seem now more likely be related to medication used to treat her mental illness.

I, a layperson, agree. I just read an article saying that extrapyramidal symptoms showing up with newer anti-psychotics drugs not just the old ones. I think she has been on anti-psychotic meds a long time.

This whole case is so terribly sad. It is haunting.

 

[Vresia]

"As of this report, Julie Schenecker remained isolated in the Orient Road Jail medical ward, where a source close to the family says she belongs.

“Julie is not emotionally stable,” the source, who did not want to be identified, said. “She has been depressed for over 10 or 11 years. The fact that she snapped was not a sudden thing. Her recent behavior toward her children over the past months has been abusive, paranoid and scary.”
...
“(Julie) had become increasingly violent toward both kids,” a source said. “She took most of her anger and paranoia out on Calyx. She thought the girl was turning into a problem child, which was far from the truth. Julie was paranoid and, from what I noticed in the last few months -- delusional.”"

http://www.examiner.com/media-cultu...eaks-friend-calls-julie-schenecker-delusional

 

[southcitymom]

Hey y'all - am I missing something? Are there any links other than Examiner links that reference this mothers depression issues or the fact that the cops interrupted her suicide attempt.

I am off to a PTA meeting and don't have time to search for more official sources. I thought I had followed this thread closely, but maybe I missed something.

ETA - no disrespect to Examiner or its reporter, but I'm searching for something a little more......

 

[justbeachy]

"As of this report, Julie Schenecker remained isolated in the Orient Road Jail medical ward, where a source close to the family says she belongs.

“Julie is not emotionally stable,” the source, who did not want to be identified, said. “She has been depressed for over 10 or 11 years. The fact that she snapped was not a sudden thing. Her recent behavior toward her children over the past months has been abusive, paranoid and scary.”
...
“(Julie) had become increasingly violent toward both kids,” a source said. “She took most of her anger and paranoia out on Calyx. She thought the girl was turning into a problem child, which was far from the truth. Julie was paranoid and, from what I noticed in the last few months -- delusional.”"

http://www.examiner.com/media-cultu...eaks-friend-calls-julie-schenecker-delusional

Without passing judgment (because I don't know all the facts), what were people doing to help the situation? If she was "abusive, paranoid, scary and delusional" did anyone step up to help? This information doesn't help AFTER the fact.

 

[LadyL]

Without passing judgment (because I don't know all the facts), what were people doing to help the situation? If she was "abusive, paranoid, scary and delusional" did anyone step up to help? This information doesn't help AFTER the fact.

that might've been the person who called child protective services ...

someone called and they visited

 

[MCDRAW]

that might've been the person who called child protective services ...

someone called and they visited

You would think if this person told cps what was printed in the article, they would have done more. Maybe they told and CPS failed to protect again. Or this friend kept quiet and someone else called, maybe the counselor from school. It makes one wonder how well they investigated. Whatever the case, it's sad that two children lost their lives and their family has to live the rest of their lives missing them.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you for sharing your experience of what mental illness is like and how you think it relates to this crime.

The kind of psychosis here, if any, is indeed of a different nature than that of Yates. Clearly she was not thinking in normal fashion about solutions to life's difficulties, but her disordered thinking is apparently on a different level.

That said, the physical illness (resulting from whatever natural or self-inflicted cause) you and I both suspect may be associated (as with Parkinson's) with altered cognition, and changes in impulse control, with increased agitation, irritability, and/or aggression.

That is, the tools our brain possesses to dampen emotion and reaction are busted - perceptions are impaired, and emotions abnormally intense or absent. Parkinson's, which you mentioned, can by itself or as result of medication cause very serious cognitive and emotional problems and unusual impulses and aggression.

The TD symptoms or extrapyrimidal symptoms are intriguing because they point to organic brain damage and use of substances that can damage the brain in other ways - producing an "emotional dyskinesia", ie. malfunctioning related to the disease affecting perception and mood.

One could analogize it to two cars, "healthy car" and "beater car" at the top of a hill getting pushed from behind. The conscious driver in the healthy car knows ways to slow and control the descent. There are checks on the movement of the car. Putting the car into a new gear, or applying brakes, or the emergency brake prevent a dangerous race downhill.

The driver of the beater car may be impaired or confused an make mistakes trying to deal with the crash. The brakes aren't working as they should and aren't going to. The driver may have a stuck accelerator, even. This roll downhill is nearly unstoppable.

Facing this loss of control, the driver might even choose to hasten the crash, thinking, I hate this car, I hate my passengers laughing at my car; this is impossible to bear. I am going to roll it down hill and crash in that wall and that will end my humiliation. Plus that husband who was too rough with this car can enjoy watching the consequences. See what he did to us?

I may despair, but I control my fate!

This is a really great post. Didn't feel clicking "Thank you" wasn't enough. I like the way you think..

 

[OneLostGrl]

I am not persuaded that she would be found "insane" by a legal definition but I am 100% convinced her psychiatric issues had a role in this.

Thank you Pensfan & SarahW for you experienced input.



Yes- I didn't know how to clarify the chicken & egg factors of treatment of one leading to the other or one being a symptom of the other.



I, a layperson, agree. I just read an article saying that extrapyramidal symptoms showing up with newer anti-psychotics drugs not just the old ones. I think she has been on anti-psychotic meds a long time.

This whole case is so terribly sad. It is haunting.

ita. tardive dyskinesia? could very well be... can't rule it out. IMO

Now that I think of it.. her "mush mouth"? Rabbit syndrome? Wish we had a better video of just what it is she's doing with her mouth. You all bring up very good points..

 

[LadyL]

According to the warrant, there were five spent shell casings in the master bath. Did she gather them up after her shooting rampage and intend to dispose of them or was she going to keep them as sort of 'trophies' or what exactly?

And how many times were the kids shot? We've heard about one 'warning' shot through the windshield ... and there were five spent shell casings

A question: where are people reading about an email to her mother after the fact? I can't find it ...

 

[LadyL]

(I am a verified psych nurse on Websleuths.) This woman is exhibiting EPS.
Thorazine is the drug of choice for one time doses needed to control out-of-control patients. Thorazine is frequently used in conjunction with straitjackets to decrease the amount of physical restraint needed to control or transport the patient. This woman appeared to be wearing a straitjacket upon leaving with LE.

None of the frequently used methods to quickly OD (as opposed to ODing on Tylenol and having liver failure) would have any affect upon Parkinson's tremors because Parkinson's tremors are related to lowered dopamine levels. Opioids, benzos plus opioids or alcohol, and alcohol plus any of these do not affect dopamine levels. In fact there have been studies showing there may be alterations in opioid receptor binding in Parkinson's disease.

On NG last night, a reporter stated that the mom was found sleeping near her pool. This mom may have been catatonic which is extremely different from "taking a little nap".

FWIW - the warrant states she was unconscious and 'woken up and taken inside'

it's a bit confusing to me b/c I'd hope that if she were catatonic or having a medical emergency of any kind, that they would leave her right where she is and call the paramedics

I don't know what their protocol is but the fact that they woke her up and took her inside makes me think that she indeed was just having a nap (or passed out drunk?)

again, I'm speculating with only the bare essentials of what was in the warrant - that one line doesn't tell us much

 

[mdimaggio]

Thank you for that link Litig8r. I feel a whole new level of sick after learning some of those details. Like using the word massacre and planning it for so long.

I don't think that she ever intended to kill the father. I think that she had even more rage at him than she did at her kids.

The media has reported that the father has not visited JPS yet and that nothing has been done about retaining a private attorney. That speaks volumes.

Absolutely, which begs the question, why was she left alone or unsupervised to care for those precious children? A known family member said she was mentally unstable and has had issues with depression for over a decade. All this new information makes me even sicker and more disgusted about this situation. I had a terrible suspicion that, she planned her suicided by overdosing on Rx drugs, which we know now, was botched by LE showing up. It doesnt appear to me that she planned on killing her husband. Her anger IMHO seems directed towards him.

 

[Vresia]

You would think if this person told cps what was printed in the article, they would have done more. Maybe they told and CPS failed to protect again.

Hi McDraw-

The person that called CPS was reported to be the counselor that Calyx was seeing. If I come across a link saying that, I will post it. I am pretty confident that that is who the reported caller was. I took note of this because it meant that Calyx was in counseling before the slaps and not as a consequence of them.

I think one of the things that messed up CPS pursuing this case is that the family was all in counseling, the mother was in therapy, the mother & father both said that there was no substance abuse in the house, the father & at least one of the therapists told CPS that they were not concerned for the children's safety.

I can understand why the parents didn't give CPS a more accurate story. 1) They may have believed that the situation was under control given all the therapists/ therapy going on; 2) Professionals treating JPS may have apprised the father of what her status was, what their treatment plan was & led him to believe that the situation was under control & certainly not dangerous for the children; 3) There are obvious personal reasons for not wanting a public agency involved in this family matter- career & community considerations. There is so much that we don't know and will probably never know. I am not sure that anyone necessarily dropped the ball.

 

[Vresia]

According to the warrant, there were five spent shell casings in the master bath. Did she gather them up after her shooting rampage and intend to dispose of them or was she going to keep them as sort of 'trophies' or what exactly?

And how many times were the kids shot? We've heard about one 'warning' shot through the windshield ... and there were five spent shell casings

A question: where are people reading about an email to her mother after the fact? I can't find it ...

Hi LadyL- I thought that was strange too, bringing the casings to the bathroom. It is especially weird because the children were shot at different times & in different places.

The news reports that I have read said that each child was shot twice & that there was the one shot through the windshield.

I don't know anything about an email after the fact. All that I have read about is an alarming email that the grandmother received sometime before calling the police Fri AM. She attempted reaching JPS, couldn't &, at some point, called the police. I haven't read anything about the timing of the email or how long the grandmother waited before giving up on trying to reach JPS; it could have been well before the children were killed or after.

 

[Vresia]

Hey y'all - am I missing something? Are there any links other than Examiner links that reference this mothers depression issues or the fact that the cops interrupted her suicide attempt...

ETA - no disrespect to Examiner or its reporter, but I'm searching for something a little more......

SouthCityMom- I would also love to see more on this from presumably better vetted sources. I haven't seen any and don't think there will be much more until someone writes a book.

I haven't noticed inaccuracies in other pieces written by this particular Examiner reporter so I was not reluctant to post the link.

 

[strawberry]

"As of this report, Julie Schenecker remained isolated in the Orient Road Jail medical ward, where a source close to the family says she belongs.

“Julie is not emotionally stable,” the source, who did not want to be identified, said. “She has been depressed for over 10 or 11 years. The fact that she snapped was not a sudden thing. Her recent behavior toward her children over the past months has been abusive, paranoid and scary.”
...
“(Julie) had become increasingly violent toward both kids,” a source said. “She took most of her anger and paranoia out on Calyx. She thought the girl was turning into a problem child, which was far from the truth. Julie was paranoid and, from what I noticed in the last few months -- delusional.”"

http://www.examiner.com/media-cultu...eaks-friend-calls-julie-schenecker-delusional

Depressed for 10 or eleven years? Since Calyx was 6 and Beau 3? That's tragic! She was depressed for the most delightful periods of a child's life! Why was she untreated after 10 years?? Some depressions are refractive but within the past few years electrotherapy and magnet therapy have given good results to some of those patients.

 

[Vresia]

Absolutely, which begs the question, why was she left alone or unsupervised to care for those precious children? A known family member said she was mentally unstable and has had issues with depression for over a decade.

I agree, I really wish that she had never been left alone with those children. I wish a relative had moved in or come for an extended visit. It could have been with the excuse of being desperate for some Florida sun.

I also think some clues only become meaningful in retrospect. It is easy to say now that she was delusional and bonkers for a decade but, this family was getting help- JPS was in therapy, presumably under a psychiatrist's care for long-term issues. Who could have imagined this would happen ? Some of the TV shrinks have said that it is incredibly rare for a mother to kill teenaged children.

 

[southcitymom]

SouthCityMom- I would also love to see more on this from presumably better vetted sources. I haven't seen any and don't think there will be much more until someone writes a book.

I haven't noticed inaccuracies in other pieces written by this particular Examiner reporter so I was not reluctant to post the link.

I don't begrudge you for posting the link of Examiner, but I am reluctant to fully consider what is written there until I have heard it from elsewhere! I appreciate all new information!

 

[Kateyes]

Absolutely, which begs the question, why was she left alone or unsupervised to care for those precious children? A known family member said she was mentally unstable and has had issues with depression for over a decade. All this new information makes me even sicker and more disgusted about this situation. I had a terrible suspicion that, she planned her suicided by overdosing on Rx drugs, which we know now, was botched by LE showing up. It doesnt appear to me that she planned on killing her husband. Her anger IMHO seems directed towards him.

I think you may have hit on the reason why she was taken to the hospital for "medical reasons". There may have been suspicion that she tried to overdose and was taken to the hospital where her blood would be drawn, and appropriate treatment would be given. The HIPPA laws would prevent any information about any medical treatment she may have received.

Some of the earlier posts this evening referenced how Family and Children's services may have been called. I am not sure if I heard this on Nancy Grace or on Jane Velez-Mitchell's show, but, I believe Jean Casarez (sp?) reported that Calyx had confided in a teacher that her mother's behavior had scared her, and that she had been abusive to her. The teacher called Family and Children's services, who did send someone to the house. But, according to what was reported on the show, since there was no physical evidence of abuse the investigator could not say she found any evidence, and so could not intervene in any way. This was covered on one of the above shows last evening. In the state of Florida teacher, nurses, social workers, and some others are mandated reporters - if they suspect abuse, or someone tells them of abuse they are mandated to report it, by law. I have an RN license in FL, and being a mandatory reporter is made very clear. So I can see the info reported as very plausible.

 

[Pensfan]

The newer atypical neuroleptics have a dramatically reduced risk of extrapyramidal signs and symptoms. For some unknown reason, young adult males are more likely to experience such side effects with the newer antipsychotic meds.

For what this is worth: Reading in the latest article from above that she had been chronically depressed for over a decade, her mental health provider had likely tried numerous medications including older tricyclic antidepressants to relieve her depression. A humongous overdose with tricyclic antidepressants (old antidepressants from the 1950s) might have caused her severe facial grimacing (EPS).

One has to take a huge dose (20mg/kg) of tricyclic antidepressants to experience cardiotoxic effects. At approx 140 lbs (I'm guessing), she would need almost an entire month of pills if prescribed 75 mg/day of amitriptyline. If LE had found an empty bottle of such medication in my city and an individual with unusual symptoms, they would have called an ambulance instead of loading her into a patrol car. Did any of the released documents state what medication bottles they removed from her home?

Previously on this thread, someone mentioned that there were other family members in her city? I can't find this info. Is this true? (very, very sad)