FL FL - Clifford & Christine Walker, both 23, & 2 kids, Osprey, 20 Dec 1959

[kline]

Yeah I always thought it was an amazing coincidence Perry Smith and Dick Hickock were in the immediate vicinty of this crime.
They did too,having read about it in the paper,Perry Smith reportedly remarked to Dick Hickock that it must have been some 'nut' who read about what happened out in Kansas'.
Florida authorities polygraphed and questioned them about the case after they were jailed in Garden City Kansas in 1960,the results were decidedly negative.
I dont believe they were involved in it either.
This is a very facinating case...I certainly believe it was someone known to them and the sexual assault on Mr.s Walker was the primary motive.
Of course thats just my opinion .
But to me it would indicate the killer was someone who had the opportunity to observe and work up a head of steam over her.
L.E. was,especially back in those days, too quick to jump on the 'transient'angle probably because its too disturbing to contemplate someone capable of commiting such a crime might live in our own backyard.
Of course now we take it for granted...
Ive been researching an unsolved murder here in my hometown of Orofino Idaho from 1951 in which a 14 year old boy was found murdered beside the highway. Naked with his hands bound, having been sexually assaulted and his throat cut ear to ear.
He disappeared on his way home from the Clearwater County fair.
Judging from the coverage i've found, it would appear L.E. decided it was the work of a 'Transient Degenerate' before the body was even in the morgue.
I beleive that knee jerk assumption seriously impaired the focus of the investigation from the start..
Im reasonably certain the perpretrator was a local resident for a variety of reasons.
Maybe Ill post on this case sometime...but anyway those kind of assumptions were pretty common back then.

 

[Richard]

Yeah I always thought it was an amazing coincidence Perry Smith and Dick Hickock were in the immediate vicinty of this crime....

Ive been researching an unsolved murder here in my hometown of Orofino Idaho from 1951 in which a 14 year old boy was found murdered beside the highway. Naked with his hands bound, having been sexually assaulted and his throat cut ear to ear.
He disappeared on his way home from the Clearwater County fair.
Judging from the coverage i've found, it would appear L.E. decided it was the work of a 'Transient Degenerate' before the body was even in the morgue.
I beleive that knee jerk assumption seriously impaired the focus of the investigation from the start...
...but anyway those kind of assumptions were pretty common back then.

Good points - both that Coincidences do happen and they are just that, Coincidences. And also that a quick initial impression/opinion, especially one that LE expresses early on in a case, can impair the investigation for a long time afterward.

It is much better to approach any case with a completely open mind and hold off making opinions public.

I would like to see a summary of the case you mention.

 

[mfmangel1]

What a horrible case. What forces are at work that cause criminals to kill entire families? It is beyond any reasoning. It makes me ill. All I can do to console myself when these horrible crimes are committed, is to know that the family is together in a much better place.

 

[kline]

Richard I will post a thread on that case after the Holiday is over.
Ill call it 'Lonnie Jones(the boys name) 1951 unsolved homicide' so you know which one to look for.
Have great Thanksgiving everyone.

 

[Richard]

bumping case up...

 

[Anubis]

Sounds like this case may actually get resolved someday as long as they got DNA from the original suspects. Sounds like a bunch of men had a great deal of trouble controling themselves where this young woman was concerned. I like how people slighted her after she had been murdered, talking about how she was such a flirt, was perhaps cheating and "like to show off her figure". It clearly shows a mindset that continues to this day: "she wanted to be raped", "she was "asking" for it", etc. The man who raped and murdered her was clearly someone she knew (who else would take the cheerleader outfit (and know where it was kept??) and marriage license? perhaps an old boyfriend from high school who had nice memories of her in that outfit and who thought that he should have been her husband; who else would kill two small children other than in a jealous rage?). Some odd things stand out to me: he raped and killed her in Jimmie's room: why drag her out of there? WHy try to clean up the mess? If the battle started on the front porch....seems it went like this: she got home, found an unwanted but known person there, perhaps told the man to leave but he lingers, after all, no husband was there; she puts the few things she has away; in reading the story, I do not know how they came to the conclusion she was on the front porch but if she were, she clearly walked out there either to shoo the man away or to escort him from her house; perhaps she thought she was safe there. He then takes action, punching her in the face in hopes he could knock her out perhaps?; they then fight; from what I understand she fought like Mohammed Ali; I believe by the time he raped her she was unconscious; he then knew he had to kill her. He shoots her, misses, perhaps because he didn't want to ruin the beautiful face of the woman he "loved" and hated; shoots again and kills her; again I believe she was unconscious as there is not mention made of defensive wounds (it is instinctive to put your hand up in stop a bullet...I have seen many many "attempted deflect" wounds on hands of people who have been shot). SO he's dragging her into the living room, unknown why, Cliff drives up. I am certain she would have told her attacker her husband was on his way. And clearly, from the wound, the attacker knew where he would come in the house and fired a well aimed shot (another indication this person was very familiar with guns). Has to shoot little Jimmie three times and then little screaming Debbie. I have to pause for a moment.......

 

[Anubis]

OK, so the last bullet he has doesn't work on the baby so he actually takes the time to fill the tub and drown her and leave her there. Beyond belief, absolutely beyond comprehension to me, this act of violence.

He clearly got blood on himself from Christine and the baby. A lot of blood based on the bloody clothing founds months later in a shack not far from the kill site. It would be nice to see the path from the house to the shack. There was alot of assumption the killer was driving a vehicle based on where Christine parked her car but I never saw any actual evidence they had to that effect. Lots of finger prints, a bootprint...

I am quite surprised they have not solved this one.

 

[gaia227]

wow- thanks Richard for bumping this up. I had never heard of this case before.
I don't even know what to say. The image of little Jimmy crawling to his daddy and poor little Debbie. I'm sure they could not understand what in the world was happening....and maybe that is a good thing. The cold-bloodedness of it just sends chilld down my spine.

It is promising they are still actively pursuing this case and with DNA they might be able to figure out who did it. Even if some of the suspects are still not alive LE could use their children's DNA and make a match. After 50 years I don't think it is so much about punishing someone because at this point they have gotten away with it but just to find out who did this.

Did anyone notice in the introduction to the article the reporter wrote: Today, he thinks he may be closer than ever to identifying the person who killed his relatives.

Now why would the reporter say relative? Do they have reason to believe it was a relative and not just a friend? And is it proven that Christine's Majorette uniform and the marriage license were missing?

 

[MaryLiz]

I've been checking the Herald-Tribune for updates on this story periodically and so far have found none. I e-mailed the guy who wrote the original article in 2005 and the follow up one in 2006, clearing one of the relatives in the case through DNA testing. I know there were a number of people they were going to test so I asked him if any of those people were ever tested and, if so, if they were ruled out. If I get a reply I will post it here.

 

[MaryLiz]

I received a reply today from Matthew Doig, the reporter who wrote the recent articles on the case for the Herald-Tribune. Nothing new to report, but there is a new detective on the case who believes it can be solved. Also, I e-mailed him the link to this thread here on WS so he can see it. Here is his response:

Mary-Beth

I apologize for my late response but I've been tied up chasing other
business. As far as I know, there have been no new significant developments in the case. Elbert and a few others were cleared in the first round of DNA testing, which I already reported. There is a new detective assigned to the case (Det. Albritton retired) and she believes it can be solved. Next year will be the 50th anniversary of the murders, so I suspect I'll write something to mark the occasion, unless something new happens before then.

l'm glad to hear the stories made such an impact on you. Feel free to write again any time.


Matthew Doig
Sarasota Herald-Tribune

 

[kline]

This such a facinating case Like most everyone else I first heard about it from the book 'In Cold Blood'.
It would be a wonderful thing for this case to be solved.
Note to Richard:Ill be posting a summary of the Lonnie Jones case soon(Yes I know I said that last Thanksgiving but I mean it this time.)

 

[Richard]

This such a facinating case Like most everyone else I first heard about it from the book 'In Cold Blood'.
It would be a wonderful thing for this case to be solved.
Note to Richard:Ill be posting a summary of the Lonnie Jones case soon(Yes I know I said that last Thanksgiving but I mean it this time.)

There were a lot of similarities between this case and the murder of the Clutter Family only a few weeks earlier. I am not totally convinced that Perry Smith and Dick Hickok weren't responsible for both. They were certainly most capable of such a murder and were in the area at the time.

Although they SAID that they didn't do it, they also said that of the Clutter murders all along until shortly before their executions, when Perry Smith spoke to Truman Capote about it and told his story.

I am looking forward to hearing about Lonnie Jones.

 

[StealthTheory]

Geeze, how horrible. What is with all the stories about the men obsessed with Christine and trying to force themselves on her? That sounds like a nightmare in itself, and then people saying she was a flirt. I'd like to know what their definition of 'flirt' was.

 

[gaia227]

It was a small town....she was an attractive woman and back then gender roles were very different. A lot of men were still of the mindset that they were superior and the role of the woman was to obey them. I am certain that type of mindset was much more prevalent in rural American. I think it was a man who perhaps felt like Christine was too much of a flirt and he was going to teach her a lesson - she had been coy with him one too many times..........

I have never felt like the rest of the family were the targets - just Christine. Cliff and the kids just had the misfortune of coming home before the killer could leave. He knew he couldn't get out and he knew they could identify him so he stood in front of the door waiting for Cliff to come in.

Given the indication that there was a car parked in the driveway when Christine pulled up that leads a person to believe she knew and somewhat trusted this person.

 

[MaryLiz]

There were a lot of similarities between this case and the murder of the Clutter Family only a few weeks earlier. I am not totally convinced that Perry Smith and Dick Hickok weren't responsible for both. They were certainly most capable of such a murder and were in the area at the time.

Although they SAID that they didn't do it, they also said that of the Clutter murders all along until shortly before their executions, when Perry Smith spoke to Truman Capote about it and told his story.

I am looking forward to hearing about Lonnie Jones.

I believe Smith and Hickock were capable of killing the Walker family but I don't think they did. I still think it was just coincidence that they were in the area at the time of the Walker murders.

When Smith and Hickock killed the Clutters, they went to Kansas believing there to be a large amount of money in the safe in the Clutter home, thus they went there with the intent to rob. Even though they didn't find the money they were looking for, their mantra had been "leave no witnesses." So they killed the entire family. Also, I believe with the Walker murders, that it was a sexually-oriented murder with Christine Walker being the main target. There was certainly nothing in the Walker home to rob as they lived in what could be almost be described a shack. There was nothing at all to indicate that there was anything in the home worth taking. The fact that the only things missing from the Walker home were Christine's majorette uniform and their framed marriage license speaks to me of a more personal crime committed by someone who knew them. Also, there was nothing sexual about the crime against the Clutter family. If I remember correctly, Mrs. Clutter and Nancy were not molested in any way.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see Smith and Hickock, as violent as they were, as being the perps in the Walker case.

 

[KarlK]

What a horrible case. What forces are at work that cause criminals to kill entire families?

More often than not, panic. Such murders are rarely premeditated but rather the result of things not going according to plan. Doesn't make the killers less guilty though, but in the past such circumstances allowed murderers to get away with manslaughter charges by claiming their first intent was not to kill but that they had to due to "unforeseen events" happening during the commission of the crime (such as in this case case, rape). Public outcry over such technicalities eventually lead to legal reforms that lead to the creation of a new capital charge, known as felony murder, which allows charging individuals who kill while committing a different offense (robbery, rape, etc.) with first-degree murder even if the murder itself was not premeditated.

 

[KarlK]

And clearly, from the wound, the attacker knew where he would come in the house and fired a well aimed shot (another indication this person was very familiar with guns). Has to shoot little Jimmie three times and then little screaming Debbie. I have to pause for a moment.......

I tend to think he wasn't that familiar with guns. The number of shots fired make it likely that the weapon used was a standard revolver rather than a rifle or LR pistol, and if you intend to kill someone using .22 rounds you will use a rifle or LR pistol (it's a long-barreled pistol than can fire .22 Long Rifle rounds) because a tiny .22 revolver has very little muzzle velocity, it's basically designed for target practice. Back in the '50's it wasn't even considered a "real" gun and was sold to anyone at general stores alongside BB guns. This was a very common household item in rural Florida at the time, used to shoot vermin like snakes and rodents. Or even alligators, but with little effect. That's probably the reason why ballistics were of no use in the investigation, with so many such guns in circulation testing would have been an exercise in futility.

 

[OilPainter]

Am I the only one who gets the heebie-jeebies in broad daylight after reading stories like this?

I just put on the security alarm. It's 2:13, sunny, 78 degrees and I'm freezing cold.

 

[gaia227]

Am I the only one who gets the heebie-jeebies in broad daylight after reading stories like this?

I just put on the security alarm. It's 2:13, sunny, 78 degrees and I'm freezing cold.

No! Fortunately I am usually at work when I reading cases like this. The heebie-jeebies come later when I am home alone, in bed and it is all quiet and I get up 15 times to check the doors and windows and every little noise I have to investigate. Thank god my fiance is with me most all the time. If he is there I fear not.

 

[reportertype]

Did anyone notice in the introduction to the article the reporter wrote: Today, he thinks he may be closer than ever to identifying the person who killed his relatives.

Now why would the reporter say relative? Do they have reason to believe it was a relative and not just a friend? And is it proven that Christine's Majorette uniform and the marriage license were missing?

I believe that top reference is to Det. Albritton, who is related to the Walkers. According to the story, Christine's mother is the person who said the uniform was missing. Family members also say the marriage cert. was gone from its usual place on the wall.

And I shouldn't read this stuff at night!