FL - Dawn Brancheau, Female Trainer Killed at Shamu Stadium

[LinasK]

Posted: 5:46 pm EST March 1,2010Updated: 9:31 am EST March 2,2010
ORLANDO, Fla. -- A killer whale that dragged a trainer to her death eluded SeaWorld workers' frenzied efforts to corral it with plastic nets while it swam pool-to-pool, according to witness statements released Monday <snip>Jan Topoleski, whose job is to monitor trainers' safety during shows, told investigators he saw Brancheau lying on the deck face-to-face with the 22-foot-long, 12,000-pound whale and communicating with him right before the attack. He said the whale, named Tilikum, bit Brancheau's hair and pulled her into the pool in a span of about two seconds. He sounded an alarm and grabbed safety equipment. Susanne De Wit, a 33-year-old tourist from the Netherlands, told investigators her group had just walked to a window for a photo when she saw the attack. The attack occurred in front of about 20 visitors who had stuck around after a noontime show. "Suddenly I saw (the whale) grabbing the trainer ... and pulling her down in the water," she said. "It was scary. He was very wild, with the trainer still in the whale's mouth, the whale's tail was very wild in the water." Tanner Grogan, who scrambled to help other employees unfurl nets to corral Tilikum, said the whale at one point let go for several seconds, but snatched Brancheau again by the foot before anyone could react. The plastic, weighted nets -- similar to temporary fencing used at construction sites -- were unrolled and dropped in the water to help direct the whale to a pool with a hydraulic lift. It's not clear how long it took workers to finally trap the whale in that pool and lift him from the water. One witness said it seemed like 10 minutes. Another said it could have been as long as 30 minutes. Even after the whale was lifted out of the water, Brancheau still could not be freed until the whale's jaws were pried open. The trainer was pronounced dead by paramedics on the deck by the pool. more at link:
http://www.wftv.com/news/22708936/detail.html

 

[aprilshowers]

Watching the video, it kinda reminds me of how some humans kill.... I wonder if the whale was irritated, old, or sick....

Are you referring to a video of the actual event? If so .... would you please share? Thank you

 

[jon_burrows]

They don't kill people; not under NORMAL circumstances.

EXACTLY!

I don't blame Tilly for attacking. He's a wild animal and wild animals are unpredictable and will act, well, wild. Tilly isn't the only captive killer whale that has attacked. Their living conditions are terrible. Dawn won't be the last.

There have been injuries at the dolphin feeding pool as well. I can see why. They are swimming in a tiny tank going from tourist to tourist begging for food. Very sad. I read before I went to the park that dolphins shouldn't be petted on the top of their head because of their sensitive sonar. I was never told that when I bought the fish and as I was feeding them people all around me were petting them on their head.

There are cable channels devoted to animals, documentaries, dvds, and books. There is no need to see a captive whale in order to learn about them. You aren't even learning about their natural behavior.

If people want to see dolphins/whales and get an education, nature cruises are great. We've been on them and children/adults loved the whole experience. The captain cut the engines and we were allowed to watch them in their natural habitat (quietly without disturbing them). Some of the dolphins actually swam over to the boat (including a mother and her calf). They were jumping in the air. It was amazing. Simply sitting on the beach and watching pods of dolphins swim by is beautiful.

IMO

 

[jon_burrows]

Posted: 5:46 pm EST March 1,2010Updated: 9:31 am EST March 2,2010
ORLANDO, Fla. -- A killer whale that dragged a trainer to her death eluded SeaWorld workers' frenzied efforts to corral it with plastic nets while it swam pool-to-pool, according to witness statements released Monday <snip>Jan Topoleski, whose job is to monitor trainers' safety during shows, told investigators he saw Brancheau lying on the deck face-to-face with the 22-foot-long, 12,000-pound whale and communicating with him right before the attack. He said the whale, named Tilikum, bit Brancheau's hair and pulled her into the pool in a span of about two seconds. He sounded an alarm and grabbed safety equipment. Susanne De Wit, a 33-year-old tourist from the Netherlands, told investigators her group had just walked to a window for a photo when she saw the attack. The attack occurred in front of about 20 visitors who had stuck around after a noontime show. "Suddenly I saw (the whale) grabbing the trainer ... and pulling her down in the water," she said. "It was scary. He was very wild, with the trainer still in the whale's mouth, the whale's tail was very wild in the water." Tanner Grogan, who scrambled to help other employees unfurl nets to corral Tilikum, said the whale at one point let go for several seconds, but snatched Brancheau again by the foot before anyone could react. The plastic, weighted nets -- similar to temporary fencing used at construction sites -- were unrolled and dropped in the water to help direct the whale to a pool with a hydraulic lift. It's not clear how long it took workers to finally trap the whale in that pool and lift him from the water. One witness said it seemed like 10 minutes. Another said it could have been as long as 30 minutes. Even after the whale was lifted out of the water, Brancheau still could not be freed until the whale's jaws were pried open. The trainer was pronounced dead by paramedics on the deck by the pool. more at link:
http://www.wftv.com/news/22708936/detail.html

They had to actually lift Tilly out of the water and pry his mouth open...I didn't know that. I wonder how they pried his mouth open. Anyone know?

Is he back to performing now?

 

[Tizzle]

OSHA predicted this in a report a few years back, but redacted much of the report at the urging of SeaWorld execs. Strange. OSHA's original report was 18 pages long, after SeaWorld's objections to the report, it was only 8 pages. SeaWorld is so greedy that they knowingly put their employees and, possibly, guests in harm's way and OSHA apparently let them. SeaWorld needs to stop breeding sea creatures into captivity for the entertainment of humans NOW.

OSHA Warned SeaWorld: 'Trainer will be Killed by Whale'

In this shocking story, CNN's Randi Kaye reveals that OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) warned SeaWorld about the inherent dangers of swimming with killer whales -- but then recanted that report after the corporation insisted it was unfair and only speculative. Turns out, the original report was right. Following a 2006 incident at SeaWorld, where a trainer was left badly injured by a whale, OSHA told the animal theme park it was just a matter of time until one of its trainers was killed. Here's the story:

Video here.

 

[Penelope]

Upon reading the eyewitness reports at the Radaronline site --(download them here)

I found one witness statement made by a Jodie Ann Tintle (her statement indicates that she is a 31 year old female Otter trainer at SeaWorld) that said the whale was raised up and its mouth had to be opened to remove the trainer..."and when Dawn was 1st pulled, part of her wetsuit/hand was left in his mouth and it was pried open again to get her hand out."

I am not sure if that means that her hand became unattached from the rest of her body or if the hand was still attached to body but still stuck in Tilly's mouth. Either way, it sounds gruesome and that she must have sustained some pretty bad injuries.

 

[sniperacer]

Upon reading the eyewitness reports at the Radaronline site --(download them here)

I found one witness statement made by a Jodie Ann Tintle (her statement indicates that she is a 31 year old female Otter trainer at SeaWorld) that said the whale was raised up and its mouth had to be opened to remove the trainer..."and when Dawn was 1st pulled, part of her wetsuit/hand was left in his mouth and it was pried open again to get her hand out."

I am not sure if that means that her hand became unattached from the rest of her body or if the hand was still attached to body but still stuck in Tilly's mouth. Either way, it sounds gruesome and that she must have sustained some pretty bad injuries.

Reminds me of one of my kids school lessons. ...

Name an animal with more / bigger teeth than a killer whale?

Enough said.

 

[jon_burrows]

I so totally agree. I know one person questioned how, as a person able to view these majestic animals in the wild, I could be willing to take the privilege of seeing them from someone else. But that poster lived in Florida. I could only think BUT YOU see dolphins dancing in your waters!!! I would never want them tamed for my viewing pleasure here. Don't all of us have something unusual and unique to the area we live in? Why can't we be satisfied and feel happy with what we do have? Why must we always be looking for more? Many boats filled with people go very close to the orcas here. They are highly intelligent and even put on displays for our pleasure- LOL! And they are NOT killers by nature- they are just huge dolphins and love people. They do not attack in the wild. Not even swimmers. I still have the same invitation to offer- if you MUST see an orca; rent a boat and come see me! Problem solved! And, by the way, could you return the favor and let me see you when I want to see a dolphin? I AM, I must say, very happy to see the passion on BOTH sides of the coin here. Passion shows a true love........perhaps misled, but a TRUE love nonetheless!

Sheromom, I wish we could trade places for a few weeks! Bottlenose dolphins are common along the east coast but I still have the same excitement every time I see them. You can always tell when a large pod comes through because most people lounging on the beach get up and start pointing...watching them until they're out of site.

BBM...It's so sad to see killer whales like this but it goes to show how intelligent they are, when one was in trouble another one quickly stepped in to help:

[video=youtube;hsx7DI45S9g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsx7DI45S9g&NR=1[/video]

 

[Melly53]

I have a pool, I'm fully aware of the purpose of chlorine. The poster said the urine was filtered, that is different than being blasted with chemicals. Could you point me to a link that supports the notion that living in a chemical soup is the same as sea water? I've found the opposite but I'd like to take a look at your link.

Someone posted an aerial video of the whales at SeaWorld. It's sad to see them floating there doing nothing but waiting to perform their next set of tricks for food. You can quote the total gallons but look at them...does that look big enough to you? Can you imagine what their life is like?

If SeaWorld's environment is so great for these animals then why is their life cut short? It's unusual for a captive whale to even make it to the average age of a wild whale.

The original posters statement was "As to all the comments about him swimming in his own urine, the water is filtered and VERY clean." so I am not sure why you continue to say that she stated the "urine was filtered" nor was anything said about blasting it with chemicals.

Most aquariums rely on 3 types of filtration: Mechanical Filtration: removes the free floating particles from the aquarium water.
Biological Filtration: the most important aquarium filtration type because it deals with the growing of the good bacteria in the filter. The good bacteria is the bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite and then converts nitrite into nitrate. This establishment of bacteria is essential to the success of keeping tropical fish. Ammonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrate
Chemical Filtration
Chemical filtration involves removing the dissolved wastes from the aquarium water. Often times this is accomplished through the use of activated carbon in the aquarium filter. Activated carbon can also help to reduce odors.


If you look at that aerial footage you mentioned, that I had originally posted, you can clearly see part of the filtration system that SeaWorld Florida uses and it is huge and may possibly contain an RO/ID set-up too. And if you look at the size of the whale tanks in relationship to the size of the whales they are IMO larger than a lot of people think they are, and only two of the whales there were even born in the ocean much less ever lived in it. While many may not approve of the them IMO the size is more comparable to a human being living in a large swimming pool rather than a bathtub.


I am not sure what you are referencing when you say "chemical soup". Natural sea water is made up of various minerals and chemicals and trace elements which is nature's own homemade "chemical soup". Ref: http://www.reefpedia.com/index.php/Sea_Water_Composition

Now if you are refering to the differences between artificial sea water versus natural sea water then you can compare them by looking at a bag of any of the more than dozen mixes which are available on the internet. Below is just one example.

http://www.aquacraft.net/w0002.html

Seems to me that the various companies producing artificial sea salt mixtures are doing their very best to match exactly what is found in natural sea water, some just do it better than others. JMO

There are advantages to using artifical sea water in closed systems such as; natural seawater "dies", both biologically and chemically more quickly than synthetics. Another issue concerning natural sea water is that it comes ready equipped with a multitude of micro- and macro-organisms, not all of them good. Even if the water is sediment filtered, diatomed, U-V'ed, ozonized, many "things" will survive. And lastly the rampant pollution that exists in our oceans today makes much of it unsuitable for use in aquariums without extensive filtration and treatment. The oceans around the U.S. are some of the most polluted in the world.

SeaWorld is improving their ability to keep captive killer whales and extend their captive life expectancy every day. Excluding still births, SeaWorld Florida has not lost a killer whale to death in 14 years. (1996). Ref: http://www.orcahome.de/deadaqua.htm

In your post #124 you stated "On average, a male in the wild can expect a life span of 30 years, while a female can expect a life span of 50 years." Tillikum is approximately 30 years old so he has already reached the expected life span of a wild orca and may even surpass it for all we know, only time will tell.

 

[Melly53]

As far as I understand, the man died from combination of hypothermia and drowning.
The first trainer was killed by drowning. Tilikum was one of the three whales that killed her. She fell in and was not allowed to leave the pool. There are witnesses who saw it.
The last trainer was killed by drowning and physical trauma. She couldn't leave the pool. There are witnesses who saw it.
Do you see the pattern?
It appears to me that once the person is in the pool (either falls, gets in the pool by himself, or pulled in by the whale) the whale doesn't let the person to get out.
But of course you can think whatever it is you want to think-there are no witnesses to the man's demise, after all.

And in all of these incidences that you referenced the whales in question had never had water work done with them. In other words they were not accustomed to having a person in the water with them, professional trainer or otherwise.

 

[LinasK]

And in all of these incidences that you referenced the whales in question had never had water work done with them. In other words they were not accustomed to having a person in the water with them, professional trainer or otherwise.

That's exactly why SeaWorld had no business letting Dawn lie down on the shelf with him, or did Dawn violate SeaWorld's protocol without their knowledge??? At minimum, her ponytail should have been in a swim cap. This particular whale has a very violent past that everyone working with him should have known about. He had no business performing in shows, I don't care that they wanted him as a stud. How many deaths is it going to take for SeaWorld to get that???:banghead:

 

[Melly53]

Some people seem to be confused as to exactly what is meant by a "whale sanctuary", such as those established near Chile, Australia, Canada, and Antarctica to name a few. They are areas of the open ocean where commercial whaling is not allowed.They were established as sanctuaries to protect whales from whaling pressures which placed enormous pressure on whale populations and drove many species to near extinction.

The Animal Planet show "Whale Wars" is filmed in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary. Japan, Norway and Iceland have issued scientific permits as part of their supposed research programs which allows them to catch whales within an established sanctuary but many people feel that it is just a cover for their commercial whaling operations.

 

[kgeaux]

You don't know what the whale was thinking or doing in the incident with the man either.
The first trainer fell into the pool, was not allowed to get out, and drowned.
Dawn was pulled into the pool, was not allowed to get out, was bitten, and died from drowning and trauma.
I don't think it's that far fetched to imagine that if the man either fell, jumped, or was pulled into the pool, he was not allowed to get out,and as a result died of hypothermia.
By the way, the article in your links states trainers were allowed to work with Tilikum from a partially submerged area of the pool, which is what Dawn was doing.
Yet she is being blamed for her death.

lol, Jenny! I don't NEED to know what the orca was 'thinking!' In regards to the man who was found floating in the pool, all I am pointing out (and this is not my opinion, this is fact according to the autopsy) is that he died of hypothermia, not drowning. It would appear that he was not held underwater by Tilly, as the others were. In that regard, his death differs dramatically from the trainers.

Dawn is not being drowned for her death. It is merely being pointed out that a long ponytail drifting in the water could look remarkably like a fish to the orca. Other trainers have said she made a terrible mistake and that she would be the first to admit it. They are not "blaming" Dawn, they are trying to explain what caused the incident.

 

[jon_burrows]

The original posters statement was "As to all the comments about him swimming in his own urine, the water is filtered and VERY clean." so I am not sure why you continue to say that she stated the "urine was filtered" nor was anything said about blasting it with chemicals.

Most aquariums rely on 3 types of filtration: Mechanical Filtration: removes the free floating particles from the aquarium water.
Biological Filtration: the most important aquarium filtration type because it deals with the growing of the good bacteria in the filter. The good bacteria is the bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite and then converts nitrite into nitrate. This establishment of bacteria is essential to the success of keeping tropical fish. Ammonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrate
Chemical Filtration
Chemical filtration involves removing the dissolved wastes from the aquarium water. Often times this is accomplished through the use of activated carbon in the aquarium filter. Activated carbon can also help to reduce odors.


If you look at that aerial footage you mentioned, that I had originally posted, you can clearly see part of the filtration system that SeaWorld Florida uses and it is huge and may possibly contain an RO/ID set-up too. And if you look at the size of the whale tanks in relationship to the size of the whales they are IMO larger than a lot of people think they are, and only two of the whales there were even born in the ocean much less ever lived in it. While many may not approve of the them IMO the size is more comparable to a human being living in a large swimming pool rather than a bathtub.


I am not sure what you are referencing when you say "chemical soup". Natural sea water is made up of various minerals and chemicals and trace elements which is nature's own homemade "chemical soup". Ref: http://www.reefpedia.com/index.php/Sea_Water_Composition

Now if you are refering to the differences between artificial sea water versus natural sea water then you can compare them by looking at a bag of any of the more than dozen mixes which are available on the internet. Below is just one example.

http://www.aquacraft.net/w0002.html

Seems to me that the various companies producing artificial sea salt mixtures are doing their very best to match exactly what is found in natural sea water, some just do it better than others. JMO

There are advantages to using artifical sea water in closed systems such as; natural seawater "dies", both biologically and chemically more quickly than synthetics. Another issue concerning natural sea water is that it comes ready equipped with a multitude of micro- and macro-organisms, not all of them good. Even if the water is sediment filtered, diatomed, U-V'ed, ozonized, many "things" will survive. And lastly the rampant pollution that exists in our oceans today makes much of it unsuitable for use in aquariums without extensive filtration and treatment. The oceans around the U.S. are some of the most polluted in the world.

SeaWorld is improving their ability to keep captive killer whales and extend their captive life expectancy every day. Excluding still births, SeaWorld Florida has not lost a killer whale to death in 14 years. (1996). Ref: http://www.orcahome.de/deadaqua.htm

In your post #124 you stated "On average, a male in the wild can expect a life span of 30 years, while a female can expect a life span of 50 years." Tillikum is approximately 30 years old so he has already reached the expected life span of a wild orca and may even surpass it for all we know, only time will tell.

I said the water is blasted with chemicals because it is. Of course they use filters, the whale's feces (and a lot of it) is in there too. They basically live in their own sewage plant. I've also read a report that the drone of the filters and cooling systems for the pools could be driving them crazy...just another thing they wouldn't have to face in the wild.

Chemical soup is a term my friends use when referring to their pools because it takes a lot of chemicals to keep the water crystal clear. I knew exactly what they meant and assumed everyone else would too. We get to swim at our leisure and get out of the chemicals as we please. The whales are stuck in there for life.

It's sad to see the aerial footage of the whales floating lifelessly in those tiny tanks. It surprises me that you think the tank's size is just fine.

You said, "SeaWorld is improving their ability to keep captive killer whales and extend their captive life expectancy every day. Excluding still births, SeaWorld Florida has not lost a killer whale to death in 14 years."

San Antonio SeaWorld lost one in 2007 at the ripe old age of 14, less than half his expected life span in the wild. I really don't care if its Orlando or San Antonio. The fact remains another one died at a very young age. 50 years of captivity and they still can't get the majority of them to the bare minimum (average) life expectancy.

Since you only quoted part of my post, I'll post it in its entirety:

"According to the Humane Society:

The maximum estimated life span for male orcas in the wild is 50&#8211;60 years. The maximum estimated life span for female orcas in the wild is 70&#8211;80 years. In captivity, orcas often die before they reach 20 years of age&#8212;almost no males achieve 30, and only a few females have lived past 30.

On average, a male in the wild can expect a life span of 30 years, while a female can expect a life span of 50 years."

The key here is 'almost no males achieve 30' so that doesn't mean one can't (namely Tilly).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree regarding just about everything. I understand you think SeaWorld is great for the whales, I don't. Enjoy your next visit because the whales are paying a high price to entertain you.

 

[Gracenote]

Sheromom, I wish we could trade places for a few weeks! Bottlenose dolphins are common along the east coast but I still have the same excitement every time I see them. You can always tell when a large pod comes through because most people lounging on the beach get up and start pointing...watching them until they're out of site.

BBM...It's so sad to see killer whales likes this but it goes to show how intelligent they are, when one was in trouble another one quickly stepped in to help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsx7DI45S9g&NR=1

That made me want to cry. I hate seeing these beautiful creations of God made to do stupid tricks to cheesy music in a little pool. Is there anything that we can do to help make this illegal?

 

[Gracenote]

lol, Jenny! I don't NEED to know what the orca was 'thinking!' In regards to the man who was found floating in the pool, all I am pointing out (and this is not my opinion, this is fact according to the autopsy) is that he died of hypothermia, not drowning. It would appear that he was not held underwater by Tilly, as the others were. In that regard, his death differs dramatically from the trainers.

Dawn is not being drowned for her death. It is merely being pointed out that a long ponytail drifting in the water could look remarkably like a fish to the orca. Other trainers have said she made a terrible mistake and that she would be the first to admit it. They are not "blaming" Dawn, they are trying to explain what caused the incident.

(whispering) I think it's possible that I may be blaming her.

If I lay down in the middle of the highway, many cars will be able to dodge and miss me but eventually one will hit me. At least it is a good possibility. To get close enough to touch a large, non-domestic animal in their own environment is just asking for it. God bless Steve Irwin,(I loved him so much!) his death was due to proximity to a wild animal, although it was a rare freak accident. One day he may well have succumbed to one of the crocs he loved so well. And the couple who got eaten by bears. The churches that handle poisonous snakes lose a good many members to snake bites over time.

I would never take away from the terrible grief that Dawn's family feels, and the circumstances of her death certainly do not negate the loss to the world of a lovely, smart, animal lover. But had she not been in a tank with an Orca, she likely would not have been killed by one.

Mostly, I blame Seaworld, though.

 

[Sheromom]

Sheromom, I wish we could trade places for a few weeks! Bottlenose dolphins are common along the east coast but I still have the same excitement every time I see them. You can always tell when a large pod comes through because most people lounging on the beach get up and start pointing...watching them until they're out of site.

BBM...It's so sad to see killer whales likes this but it goes to show how intelligent they are, when one was in trouble another one quickly stepped in to help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsx7DI45S9g&NR=1

Oh my goodness; what a beautiful video! And I WOULD gladly trade you for a week; I have never seen dolphins in the wild and would love to- some day I will!!!! But until I can see one in the WILD, I won't see one. What I can tell you about orcas in the wild is that the WORST experience was one hurting a human by bumping him- most likely thinking he was food and then moving on. We have many people here who make their living renting charter boats that promise to see the orcas. Never once has there been a problem other than people getting wet with some mighty cold water!

Really, I wish I knew what Tilly was thinking. I think it is very possible that he just wanted to play with his trainer with no harm intended. I also think it is very possible that he was just tired of his life and wanted to express that in an ultimate way. The first choice shows their love and playfulness; the second, perhaps (?)- their intelligence.

I hope my posts are not offensive; I am PASSIONATE about these wonderful creatures! I cannot recommend releasing Tilly at this point in his life. But I do believe that he should live in the ocean and be attended to daily. Truly, I would like to see him go back to his home- very cold waters!!! Heck, they should send him to ME!!! ( LOL )

 

[Gracenote]

Oh my goodness; what a beautiful video! And I WOULD gladly trade you for a week; I have never seen dolphins in the wild and would love to- some day I will!!!! But until I can see one in the WILD, I won't see one. What I can tell you about orcas in the wild is that the WORST experience was one hurting a human by bumping him- most likely thinking he was food and then moving on. We have many people here who make their living renting charter boats that promise to see the orcas. Never once has there been a problem other than people getting wet with some mighty cold water!

Really, I wish I knew what Tilly was thinking. I think it is very possible that he just wanted to play with his trainer with no harm intended. I also think it is very possible that he was just tired of his life and wanted to express that in an ultimate way. The first choice shows their love and playfulness; the second, perhaps (?)- their intelligence.

I hope my posts are not offensive; I am PASSIONATE about these wonderful creatures! I cannot recommend releasing Tilly at this point in his life. But I do believe that he should live in the ocean and be attended to daily. Truly, I would like to see him go back to his home- very cold waters!!! Heck, they should send him to ME!!! ( LOL )

You should try Tybee Island, GA, a little touristy place where my family spent every summer. I still escape to there at least once a year. You can hardly get into the ocean without the dolphins coming in to chase the little fish into shore. So you have the little fish leaping around you and then the dolphins chasing them and jumping close by. I always get out at that point. I get nervous. People say we don't have to worry about sharks there, though, because the dolphins keep them away. They also have boat tours that take you out to see them in the ocean.

The important thing to me is that they are out in their own environment and they only come around if they darn well please. They keep control.

 

[Melly53]

Seems people are still very much interested in seeing the killer whales at SeaWorld. Female trainers at SeaWorld are now required to wear their hair in a bun although there is still no "water work" being done during the shows.

http://www.newsrecord.org/nation-world/packed-stadium-for-seaworld-killer-whale-show-1.2172574

 

[aprilshowers]

No reply to my post ... is there any footage of the actual attack? Thanks