FL FL - Daytona, WhtMale 2128UMFL, 11-21, near pond, denim jacket, May'72

[Skully]

You can use that site to really get an idea of what was going on back in the day! I use it all the time when researching our cold cases.

 

[madamx]

Oh wow Skully good find! I don't know why but when I click on the link all I see is some article about Nixon and something about some trapped miners. And the image you posted below only shows part of the article. It does so you don't know how the boy was killed. I wonder if this Orange Grove is Near the lake where the John Doe kid was found.... This is a really good find and really interesting considering the murders were sooo close in time and both boys around the same age. Wow

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=feST4K8J0scC&dat=19720508&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

not sure this will work but I found this article about Irvin Ziglar, May 8th 1972 I can't copy and past because the site won't let you, but you can go to the link, and read it.

View attachment 114356

 

[madamx]

YES your right at a mini bike shop and the other boy has a bike. I wonder if the cops ever went to the mini bike shop with the reconstruction and information on the John Doe...This IS very interesting and the time frame is like a week apart. They say John Doe was approx killed on May 3rd and Irvin went missing on the 8th

Notice Irvin was last seen at a minibike shop madamx? Very interesting find Skully you rule!! Thank you.

Yes what are the odds both young men/boys would be murdered in 72 in FL? Hm.

 

[madamx]

Oh that is great DaisyChains you addressed the rule out question! And they got back to you so that is good. So now we will see what happens from here.

So in my message to Namus yesterday asking for the Thomas Allen Meuse comparison I also requested that IF Thomas is a rule-out that it be listed on this John Doe's profile at Namus. Wonderful to get this speedy reply:

"Thank you ! We will do our best to compare and post an exclusion if possible.”

Kind regards, Carrie

Carrie Sutherland
NamUs Regional System Administrator
Web: www.NamUs.gov
NamUs @ UNT Health Science Center
Phone: 817-202- 5931
Email: [email protected]

 

[madamx]

I actually had thought about that School too but also thought all the kids were pretty much buried at the property.. Then I thought about the Brevard Correctional Institution because of the missing kids from there and the place was not that far.. except the years the kids that went missing were in the mid 70s.. But who knows where the guy was in 1972... I still like the Irvin Ziglar connection the best.. its the closest in time...

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/229dmfl.html

Fleming was last seen walking back to his family's home from a friend's house in Cocoa Beach, Florida on April 28, 1977. He was supposed to be back for dinner, but never came back. He was going to hitchhike home.

He loved to hang out by the Cocoa Beach Pier. He surfed and had long blond hair that had been trimmed shortly before his disappearance. His two front teeth had been lost in an accident, so he wore a partial plate.
A man who is serving a life sentence in Michigan for the murder of a 15-year-old boy, is considered a possible suspect in Fleming's case. The suspect murdered an 8-year-old Michigan boy in the 1950s. He served twenty years in prison for the crime.
From 1976 to 1980, he worked as a guard at the Brevard Correctional Institution in Florida; the institution houses mostly teenagers. While the suspect was working there, five local boys disappeared.
One of them was a 19-year-old inmate, Charles Collingwood, who disappeared shortly after allegations were made that he had an inappropriate relationship with the suspect. He is also considered a suspect in the 1979 disappearance of 12-year-old Kipling Hess. Neither Hess nor Collingwood were ever found.
Police say Fleming's disappearance fits the profile of the suspects crimes, and the suspect himself admitted that he liked to watch young boys surf at Cocoa Beach, which is something Fleming frequently did. He maintains his innocence in all of the Florida cases.

He could have been in Dozer School, that is in Marian county, the infamous reform school that buried all the bodies.

 

[madamx]

...NEVERMIND!...i feel like and idiot ha!..I finally figured out how to read the damn thing!

Oh wow Skully good find! I don't know why but when I click on the link all I see is some article about Nixon and something about some trapped miners. And the image you posted below only shows part of the article. It does so you don't know how the boy was killed. I wonder if this Orange Grove is Near the lake where the John Doe kid was found.... This is a really good find and really interesting considering the murders were sooo close in time and both boys around the same age. Wow

 

[madamx]

ok I was able to read the article.. says Irvin was found partially clothed and they assumed he was molested. says also there was a knife found by his body.. but it does not say anything about being stabbed.. and the article is from Monday the 8th... it says he was found on Saturday... and reported missing on Wed which would make that the 3rd and they believe he was killed on Thursday the 4th..... now back to John Doe e was found on Sunday the 7th and believed to have been killed on the 3rd... I wonder how far is it from Bradenton to the Lake where they found John Doe...

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=feST4K8J0scC&dat=19720508&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

not sure this will work but I found this article about Irvin Ziglar, May 8th 1972 I can't copy and past because the site won't let you, but you can go to the link, and read it.

View attachment 114356

 

[madamx]

I found this13 yr old kid in Tampa under unsolved homicides.. its 1979 and Not much info but kind of fits the age range..I don't know..just thought I should post... it STILL does not help with the identity of John Doe...
Victim Curtis James McGhin was reported missing on November 8, 1979 and his remains were found in a wooded field on December 19, 1979 in the Palm River area near 54th Street South and 24th Avenue south, Tampa, FL.
http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/Departm...lved-Homicides-(1)/Homicides/1979-131835.aspx


just another random thought I wonder if the Volusia Cops and The Bradenton cops ever communicated on the 2 murdered boys?? I wonder if there was some Carnival going around at that time.. remember that guy Charles E Pierce who was carnival worker and went to different places with the carnival and killed kids... oh I don't know.. just thinking out loud!

 

[DaisyChains]

I found this13 yr old kid in Tampa under unsolved homicides.. its 1979 and Not much info but kind of fits the age range..I don't know..just thought I should post... it STILL does not help with the identity of John Doe...
Victim Curtis James McGhin was reported missing on November 8, 1979 and his remains were found in a wooded field on December 19, 1979 in the Palm River area near 54th Street South and 24th Avenue south, Tampa, FL.
http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/Departm...lved-Homicides-(1)/Homicides/1979-131835.aspx


just another random thought I wonder if the Volusia Cops and The Bradenton cops ever communicated on the 2 murdered boys?? I wonder if there was some Carnival going around at that time.. remember that guy Charles E Pierce who was carnival worker and went to different places with the carnival and killed kids... oh I don't know.. just thinking out loud!

Creepy too how Kay's daughter said Gilbert claimed to have taken her to the carnival or something the day she disappeared. I really hope he didn't frequent those places for victims if he was as bad as I think he is.

At any rate, who is this John Doe?

Were there any events in town that would have brought him from somewhere else?

Since he is unclaimed is it more likely he was from out of town or even was a foster kid with no bio family to wonder about him? Both?

 

[madamx]

Strange that they never mentioned of the Boy in the Lake but they mention the other boy? Maybe because the parents had put a missing APB on the boy that it became known to the news? Just surprised the newspaper did not write anything on the unidentified boy? That is a bit odd considering they bot happened at such a close time frame...

I don't know what happened in this case, but it is weird that 2 young boys are found dead about the same time.

I wanted to also note, that I found a Daytona Beach paper on the site, but no mention of this boy being found, the UID boy.

 

[Skully]

I was hoping to find a news article on the UID boy, only because back in 72 they discussed more about a crime in the MSM. Not so much now. You can pick up a few clues from these old papers. He may have been a victim of a pedophile, because he was shaved. But why on missing person report? Or nothing in Doe? Maybe foster system too. They didn't check up on kids back then, people were foster parents and little background or SW didn't check up on the kids.

 

[Alleykins]

From his DOE page:

His body was exhumed in 2013 in hopes of collecting DNA. Unfortunately, the sample was insufficient for profiling.

This answers my question. It really stinks they couldn't get sample from the remains. How in the world are they going to ID this poor kid? His teeth were in perfect condition, so most likely he'd never been to the dentist, and fingerprinting kids (unless they'd been arrested) wasn't the standard, from what I recall.

 

[madamx]

I found this Festival in May of 1972 but its closer to Jacksonville Florida in a place called White Springs..
https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/109845

Speaking of Jacksonville and May this 15 yr old girl went missing also in May of 1972.. not far from the 2 boys..
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ville-13-May-1972&highlight=1972+jacksonville


I also noticed the Airport and the Daytona Race Track is not far from the Lake.. Still been looking for any carnival fair festival or event that could of happened in that area or the surrounding area that could of attracted people.. Just trying to piece something together here.

 

[madamx]

Yes I did not even think of the Carnival Festival aspect in Kays disappearance.. and speaking of Kay check out what Alleykins wrote on Kays websleuths thread......I think we were right on the Gilbert dude.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...1-Palmetto-15-Jan-1972&highlight=florida+1972

Creepy too how Kay's daughter said Gilbert claimed to have taken her to the carnival or something the day she disappeared. I really hope he didn't frequent those places for victims if he was as bad as I think he is.

At any rate, who is this John Doe?

Were there any events in town that would have brought him from somewhere else?

Since he is unclaimed is it more likely he was from out of town or even was a foster kid with no bio family to wonder about him? Both?

 

[carbuff]

Wow, that's the first I'd heard of a bike being found with him, and I don't recall a jean jacket, either.

I'm rather confused by the isotope results, it states


Does that mean he was born, raised and lived in the local area? Or Florida in general? It's rather vague.

Based on other isotope reports I've seen, it almost certainly means local to the area where he was found. But it's not clear how big the local area is.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[Alleykins]

Based on other isotope reports I've seen, it almost certainly means local to the area where he was found. But it's not clear how big the local area is. Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

Thanks for clarifying.
I totally messed up on the denim jacket, it's in the description and yet, my mind blocked it out.
I'm mystified about the inability to obtain a good DNA sample. They've gotten them from older remains. Heavy sigh.

 

[madamx]

I came across this and it reminded me of this Daytona John Doe and the boy Irvin...same MO

<modsnip: broken link>

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/07/us/slayer-of-tampa-boy-electrocuted-in-florida.html

 

[Alleykins]

I came across this and it reminded me of this Daytona John Doe and the boy Irvin...same MO

<modsnip: broken link>

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/07/us/slayer-of-tampa-boy-electrocuted-in-florida.html

I can see the possible connection between the cases.

 

[madamx]

I wish there was some way to figure how big the range is (local area). I also find it really odd that it was not in any news paper or anything.. especially since another boy was murdered that same week...

Based on other isotope reports I've seen, it almost certainly means local to the area where he was found. But it's not clear how big the local area is.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[madamx]

ok ugh.. skip my above comment on no newspaper coverage.. apparently they did! I finally found this from the Volusia Sentinel.. so they did report it.. I am not part of the site so I could only get some of the information...
what I do find strange is they said the bike was tracked and the Bike was Stolen apparently the same day the kid is supposedly killed... ok how strange is it that the kid and the stolen bike both end up in the middle of nowhere by a lake together.. I think someone was covering something up..But the Bike apparently came from New Smyrna.... the sad part is they thought the kid was 20 and I guess did not push it any further



https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/225042319/

Unidentified Body Baffles Sheriff's Investigators
Today marks the fifth week since the body of a young man was found stabbed to death in a wooded area off Indian Lake Road near Daytona Beach. It is the latest unsolved murder listed at the Volusia County Sheriff's Office. STILL UNIDENTIFIED, the approximately 5-foot 6-inch, 122- to 1 3 2 - p o u n d , brown, wavy haired youth, believed to be about 20 years old, was possible victim of a sex murder, authorities say.

Art Dees of the sheriff's office said Tuesday, "We are still getting some very strong leads, but today we can't put our finger on a single one that exactly fits the facts we already have in the case."
Which at this point are very few. THE STRONGEST lead seemed to be a bicycle found at the death scene. Reported stolen from a New Smyrna Beach home on May 3, just four days before the body was discovered by two motorcyclists it seems now to have no connection in the case, Dees said.

The victim was stabbed seven times, according to the medical examiner Three times In the chest, three times In the left leg and or . No weapon has been recovered but it is believed to be pocket knife size. FOUND UNCLOTHED from the waist down on May 7, the youth's trousers still hung from one leg, authorities said. I He was wearing a blue jean jacket, black loafers and a short sleeved maroon and white pullover knit shirt.

He was buried May 22 in Volusia County. "It is not unusual for us to have a list of 100 missing persons any day," Dees said, "so you can see how much time is involved in sifting through similar descriptions sent us from law enforcement agencies through out the country. "WE HAVE sent all details of the case to the FBI Washington files and have fingerprinted the victim's hands. Although badly decomposed they have not indicated he had a crime record.

"Also," Dees continued, "when persons over 17 are missing from home, parents don't always report it. They sort of figure, particularly in the in the case of males, it is just time for them to wander." At first a considerable number 6f persons came to Identify the victim from the body itself and after burial from Items kept In evidence. V ' Hf,