GUILTY FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen #20

[cottonweaver]

Good point. But does he really believe they will be able to call him? And why did they ask this friend of Charlie’s to keep it a secret?

Not sure but we've been working with very limited info. Once we get to hear the full conversations, context is everything.

An example of that was when we heard on Nov 13th that Donna was suicidal. Weeks later when we got to hear the full recording, can see that Donna wasn't really suicidal and was running through her options, mouthing off.

same recording as previously linked

The Call That Got Donna Arrested:

I don't have the timestamp - using ' Show Transcript' should bring up the timestamp

This call is worth listening to anyway, because it's the one where Donna reads out Wendi's email and also the Wendi ' I'll Baker Act you' conversation. ( IMO the email is a rare mis-step by Wendi but IDK whether it has much evidentiary value. Fingers crossed that the search warrants return something incriminating on Wendi because I haven't heard much in these calls other than the ' we're all trying to protect you... you have some thinking to do...' type comments from Donna)

 

[amicuscurie]

Not sure but we've been working with very limited info. Once we get to hear the full conversations, context is everything.

An example of that was when we heard on Nov 13th that Donna was suicidal. Weeks later when we got to hear the full recording, can see that Donna wasn't really suicidal and was running through her options.

same recording as previously linked

The Call That Got Donna Arrested:

I don't have the timestamp - using ' Show Transcript' should bring up the timestamp

This call is worth listening to anyway, because it's the one where Donna reads out Wendi's email and also the Wendi ' I'll Baker Act you' conversation

Yep. According to this call, at the time Wendi threatened to Baker Act her, she did so (according to Donna) based only on something Donna may have said during the trial about “not wanting to be there“ if it went bad. According to Donna, all of a sudden Wendi shows up, sits down on the couch, and says “if you’re suicidal, I will Baker Act you.” To me, (and to Donna, apparently), that is weird.

 

[GoJacks]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1737109967990149222

I keep thinking I'm listening to the same phone calls by accident then I realize nope he just says the same thing over and over and over.

 

[Knitpicker]

I think he's informed by Dan, which is why you didn't hear it.

As their plans progress, there are multiple references over the 3 days calls to Charlie needing to call Dan immediately. There's also a lot of heavy hinting between all.

yes Dan is the middleman.Seems he's taking lots of risks for them.

 

[amicuscurie]

It’s almost unbelievable how Charlie has run on of the mouth. The dude can’t help himself, just like WA couldn’t help herself, and had to do a drive by right after the murder. It’s so satisfying knowing that Charlie’s big mouth was the key to his conviction.

In my opinion, he can’t come to terms with the fact that he lost, because he thinks he is smarter than everyone else. I think that rather than admit that he isn’t so smart, that he in fact thought his extortion story would work but the state destroyed him, he NOW is taking the position that he actually knew all along he would lose because of the stuff that came out, (like the drive-by, Wendi’s book, etc.).

To me, his thinking evolves over the course of the calls from focusing on how he had “the facts,” how he was so good on the stand, how the jury was too stupid or biased to believe his story…to this new angle, where the evidence was stacked against him, there was a lot he couldn’t explain, and, most important, he always knew that. To me, he seems like he is trying to make himself look smart and all-knowing in these calls, like he wasn’t at all caught by surprise or outsmarted, even if he has to admit how good the state’s case actually was in order to do that. Fascinating. On this call, in particular, he essentially spells out the state’s case and how the evidence they presented may have pointed to his guilt for the jury. (Before quickly explaining how this is all “just a coincidence,” or “has nothing to do with him”)

Again, his position seems to me to be that these were all incredible coincidences, but also and at the same time, there were of course too many coincidences for the jury to believe they were really coincidences. So weird and internally inconsistent. Pretzel logic.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yep. According to this call, at the time Wendi threatened to Baker Act her, she did so (according to Donna) based only on something Donna may have said during the trial about “not wanting to be there“ if it went bad. According to Donna, all of a sudden Wendi shows up, sits down on the couch, and says “if you’re suicidal, I will Baker Act you.” To me, (and to Donna, apparently), that is weird.

Agree, very weird.

I wonder what Wendi's game plan was? She always has one.
Did a lawyer advise her to stage an intervention or she just decided off her own bat?

( Wendi isn't daft, she will have known, like we all did that Georgia was ' going one by one' and that Donna's chance of being prosecuted would increase massively. ( That point was made in every podcast over last few months)

recap from the tape:
Donna says about Wendi ' ....she's never, in 9 years, just turned up unnanounced and said ' I need to talk to you'....
she came, she sat on the couch right there and said ...'if you're suicidal I'm gonna Baker Act you' but I'm not suicidal, I'm fine..... etc

S Steinberg is in the room - hope she ends up on Prosecution's witness list too

 

[Weki]

I feel like Charlie is in shock and he’s coming down from thinking he was gonna go home. That’s a long way to fall. I have to imagine there’s a lot of denial, anger, bargaining etc before you get to acceptance. He even said it himself. He’s going through the grief stages. He keeps saying over and over how he should’ve trusted his instincts and fled (presumably) and was talked out of it. So that tells me he knew he was toast long before he was arrested. Harvey (I suspect) undermined him. These are extremely controlling parents so it’s not surprising Charlie doesn’t have a mind of his own. He has been hovered over his whole life. JMO

 

[amicuscurie]

Agree, very weird.

I wonder what Wendi's game plan was? She always has one.

Donna says about Wendi ' ....she's never, in 9 years, just turned up unnanounced and said ' I need to talk to you'....
she came, she sat on the couch right there and said ...'if you're suicidal I'm gonna Baker Act you' but I'm not suicidal, I'm fine..... etc

S Steinberg is in the room - hope she ends up on Prosecution's witness list too

In my opinion, she may have been trying to threaten her so she would be quiet. She may also have been looking for a way to get rid of her. It seems like some kind of power play to me, some kind of pretext. Maybe her lawyer suggested this, like I believe he suggested she write that exculpatory and self-serving text? Maybe she didnt like how much Donna was talking? Maybe she just wanted to create drama? Maybe she wanted to create a record of Donna being crazy so she would not be believed?

 

[amicuscurie]

I feel like Charlie is in shock and he’s coming down from thinking he was gonna go home. That’s a long way to fall. I have to imagine there’s a lot of denial, anger, bargaining etc before you get to acceptance. He even said it himself. He’s going through the grief stages. He keeps saying over and over how he should’ve trusted his instincts and fled (presumably) and was talked out of it. So that tells me he knew he was toast long before he was arrested. Harvey (I suspect) undermined him. These are extremely controlling parents so it’s not surprising Charlie doesn’t have a mind of his own. He has been hovered over his whole life. JMO

I believe this to some extent, but I also believe there’s a lot of Monday-morning quarterbacking going on. He is saying now that he always knew he didn’t have a chance, but who knows what he was thinking before he was arrested. The fact that he didn’t flee suggests to me that he thought he could beat this. He may only be saying now that he never thought that, and blaming other people for allegedly convincing him not to listen to his gut. He seems to me to always want to be right, even if it’s being right about how much he thought he was going to lose now that he has lost. Remember, the family supposedly always said “Charlie is always right, because Charlie is never wrong.“. (I think that’s from the podcast). I think that’s what we are seeing here. He seems to want to believe he was right before when he thought he could win, and also he isn’t wrong now, because he always knew he would lose.

 

[Gypsy Road]

yes Dan is the middleman.Seems he's taking lots of risks for them.

Definitely. I haven’t listened to the majority of the phone calls, but in one call I recently listened to, I got the impression that Dan would be the one relaying info to Charlie after DA and HA were planning to flee. DA says to CA - something like “when I have something to tell you - I will talk to Dan and he will tell you”. Here in these phone calls they are basically freely discussing everything under the sun - why would Dan need to relay any info forward on? She didn’t know she would be arrested at this point and was trying to flee. I don’t know about y’all, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Dan had no problem being the go between if DA had been successful with fleeing.

 

[Weki]

I believe this to some extent, but I also believe there’s a lot of Monday-morning quarterbacking going on. He is saying now that he always knew he didn’t have a chance, but who knows what he was thinking before he was arrested. The fact that he didn’t flee suggests to me that he thought he could beat this. He may only be saying now that he never thought that, and blaming other people for allegedly convincing him not to listen to his gut. He seems to me to always want to be right, even if it’s being right about how much he thought he was going to lose now that he has lost. Remember, the family supposedly always said “Charlie is always right, because Charlie is never wrong.“. (I think that’s from the podcast). I think that’s what we are seeing here. He seems to want to believe he was right before when he thought he could win, and also he isn’t wrong now, because he always knew he would lose.

Yeah I understand what you’re saying. I am of the opinion that Charlie doesn’t have a stable personality because he’s been controlled and undermined by his parents his whole life. The arrogance and narcissism is an overcompensation. I think he had good instincts before he was arrested and wanted to flee and they wouldn’t support the idea so he didn’t do it. But any man with his own mind would’ve done what he had to do despite whatever the heck they thought. Esp when he knows he’s facing life in prison. His actions and thoughts are that of an adolescent. Also, these conversations to me are coming from a desperate man who is seeking reassurance and love from his mother. The bravado is just his way of coping when he doesn’t get that. I know….I’m armchair psychoanalyzing and I could be way off but JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

I feel like Charlie is in shock and he’s coming down from thinking he was gonna go home. That’s a long way to fall. I have to imagine there’s a lot of denial, anger, bargaining etc before you get to acceptance. He even said it himself. He’s going through the grief stages. He keeps saying over and over how he should’ve trusted his instincts and fled (presumably) and was talked out of it. So that tells me he knew he was toast long before he was arrested. Harvey (I suspect) undermined him. These are extremely controlling parents so it’s not surprising Charlie doesn’t have a mind of his own. He has been hovered over his whole life. JMO

There's a call where he discusses superstitions.
He says wtte of ' I know you think I'm overly suspicious... but remember when Enzo was bitten by a snake ( his favourite dog) ... I knew then this was a bad sign. ( The bite happened on a key date. He doesn't say which date but I guess it's related to a fateful decision or the murder date. Donna replies that she knows exactly what he’s saying, so this is not her talking for the tape. ( I guess Donna knows he meant leaving the country instead of waiting to get arrested.)


There's other calls where he outlines the sequence of his perception of risks.
When he first gets to Tallahassee, he thinks he is toast, but, over time he's been told that he has a great chance of success. He ends up ' feeling pumped' as the trial date approached. ( He constantly repeats the convo he had with Dan. Dan told him wtte' in any normal case, I'd have already gone to prosecution and suggested we did a deal with the State to get the case dismissed because there's not enough evidence to go to trial' )

' At 240 days, I was literally counting down the days every morning, from 4am wake ups, as we got closer, from 100 days out I started to feel better & better, to Game On, then 30 days out I was pumped... but I never stood a chance. '

Link for that quote, about 1hr 20m here:

Link for the snake bite, 39m onwards, here:

PS @Weki 100% agree on desperate for reassurance from Mom etc. In all the calls he also comes across to me as lowest-ranked in the family pecking order despite being extremely close to his Mom.
BTW In another call he mentions ' my ADD'

 

[IQuestion]

In my opinion, she may have been trying to threaten her so she would be quiet. She may also have been looking for a way to get rid of her. It seems like some kind of power play to me, some kind of pretext. Maybe her lawyer suggested this, like I believe he suggested she write that exculpatory and self-serving text? Maybe she didnt like how much Donna was talking? Maybe she just wanted to create drama? Maybe she wanted to create a record of Donna being crazy so she would not be believed?

BBMA AMICUS... How is it that you read this case so well? I think you are are hitting pretty darn close to the bullseye on WA. I just had one other possibility...it could be her way/reasoning/designed of keeping the boys away from Donna right now. Can you imagine in their state of chaos DA blurts out..."We did this because we love you so much!" in her farewell speech?
In any case, it sure does sound like WA knows how to control DA when she wants to, huh?

 

[amicuscurie]

BBMA AMICUS... How is it that you read this case so well? I think you are are hitting pretty darn close to the bullseye on WA. I just had one other possibility...it could be her way/reasoning/designed of keeping the boys away from Donna right now. Can you imagine in their state of chaos DA blurts out..."We did this because we love you so much!" in her farewell speech?
In any case, it sure does sound like WA knows how to control DA when she wants to, huh?

Yep. Didn’t think of that angle with the boys, but it makes some sense to me. I read this case so well because I have seen similar family dynamics albeit in an ordinary non-criminal context. I don’t know anyone who would murder someone, though.

 

[cottonweaver]

regarding the new search warrants

https://twitter.com/x/status/1737092195927113735

 

[amicuscurie]

regarding the new search warrants

https://twitter.com/x/status/1737092195927113735

Yes. They seized two phones and an iPad. They already got a warrant to search the data on one phone. These latest are for the other phone and the iPad.

 

[Laineybin]

Can anyone explain how you can flee the country but still chat to your son on recorded jail calls without giving away your location?

Are the parents lying to Charlie or have they been told that being in Vietnam ( or elsewhere) doesn't preclude them continuing to do long, daily calls?

There are a few conversations where Donna & Harvey promise they'll still be able to call him.
eg 8th Nov Charlie raises issue of visits at the intake centre where he'll be for 30 days before he's transferred

Charlie: I think you're allowed visitors there but I don't know if that's where I want you to see me but I'll be looking really good when you see me.
Donna replies '.....we're doing just fine talking on the phone...
That's not gonna make the difference... ( Donna means a physical visit isn't gonna....)
at least we get to talk to each other and that's really what matters

Charlie: Soooooo.... ( Charlie starts sobbing )
Donna: we will always be able to talk to you Charlie, we will always be able to talk to you at any at any time
Harvey: any time Charlie

( Charlie doesn't reply on that topic, moves on to reminiscing about how great his life was in 2013)

6 minutes into this call

Charlie sobbing as he realizes his parents care so little about him that they aren't bothered that they'll never see him again. This is beyond cold. This is Wendi-level freezing.

 

[Tanager]

I think CA thinks he is still testifying. I do think he is trying to make sense of it all, but the repetition sounds to my ear like he has talking points that he is trying to use to rebut the state's case. He is talking for the tapes, for sure, maybe in the hope that he'll get an appeal, or for the sake of the co-conspirators in future trials. I find it interesting to listen for the items he is repeating. Much like his testifying during the case, the repetition showcases what he is concerned about. It is like a highlighter he applies to the record. During the trial he did not realize that the enduring impact of his testimony would be that his answers for everything sounded smug, arrogant, and artisanally handcrafted for addressing the state's facts that implicate the family.

I think CA would be a nightmare to wrangle, as his attorney. I think he thinks he sounds like a world class attorney in his argumentative ranting in the jail. Imagine trying to contain that energy when it contradicts good lawyering.

The recordings tell us what CA thinks are the most damning facts on the record. During his rants about the Trescott drive-by, he keeps saying, ...and "Wendi never drinks" because he thinks that make her trip to that one liquor store more logical. This directly contradicts what JL said about WA "drinking her dinner." I don't mean to imply that WA has a drinking problem; it is just an inconsistency, and CA thinks that we don't see that he is trying to drop a breadcrumb. I feel like he is hurling loaves of stale old bread at us in these recordings, and none of them mean anything. These loaves are ornate fruitcakes full of excuses, and I hate fruitcake.

I think WA is in a very special hell. I think she got talked into this plan, and she can't talk to anyone but her co-conspirators about it, and 5 of them are in jail, and the remaining one on the outside does not appear to be a shoulder to cry on. This is a HUGE secret to keep forever, particularly from her children. I sense that WA has the capacity to feel guilt, and I think she is being consumed by it, but has no outlet to release it. I am sure that the night-time is hard for WA. She has to listen to her thoughts and sift through her regrets. The biggest one being that she needlessly hurt the people she purports to love the most. That is the worst regret you can have, no?

 

[PrairieWind]

I think CA thinks he is still testifying. I do think he is trying to make sense of it all, but the repetition sounds to my ear like he has talking points that he is trying to use to rebut the state's case. He is talking for the tapes, for sure, maybe in the hope that he'll get an appeal, or for the sake of the co-conspirators in future trials. I find it interesting to listen for the items he is repeating. Much like his testifying during the case, the repetition showcases what he is concerned about. It is like a highlighter he applies to the record. During the trial he did not realize that the enduring impact of his testimony would be that his answers for everything sounded smug, arrogant, and artisanally handcrafted for addressing the state's facts that implicate the family.

I think CA would be a nightmare to wrangle, as his attorney. I think he thinks he sounds like a world class attorney in his argumentative ranting in the jail. Imagine trying to contain that energy when it contradicts good lawyering.

The recordings tell us what CA thinks are the most damning facts on the record. During his rants about the Trescott drive-by, he keeps saying, ...and "Wendi never drinks" because he thinks that make her trip to that one liquor store more logical. This directly contradicts what JL said about WA "drinking her dinner." I don't mean to imply that WA has a drinking problem; it is just an inconsistency, and CA thinks that we don't see that he is trying to drop a breadcrumb. I feel like he is hurling loaves of stale old bread at us in these recordings, and none of them mean anything. These loaves are ornate fruitcakes full of excuses, and I hate fruitcake.

I think WA is in a very special hell. I think she got talked into this plan, and she can't talk to anyone but her co-conspirators about it, and 5 of them are in jail, and the remaining one on the outside does not appear to be a shoulder to cry on. This is a HUGE secret to keep forever, particularly from her children. I sense that WA has the capacity to feel guilt, and I think she is being consumed by it, but has no outlet to release it. I am sure that the night-time is hard for WA. She has to listen to her thoughts and sift through her regrets. The biggest one being that she needlessly hurt the people she purports to love the most. That is the worst regret you can have, no?

Maybe Wendi could jet on over to Nassau and talk to Lindsay Shiver. The could commiserate together, compare notes.

 

[nodamselindistress]

Court TV is doubling down on Ms Wendi today. They are showing her police interview in full and the analysts are all now saying that she is next up on the State's list.