FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #21

[Knitpicker]

He seems to me to like this narrative that Wendi is dumb and he needs to help her, it shows up in the bump calls about Dave, and in the texts with Donna about how she was buying a house and he talked her out of it. And to me, it seems like Donna feeds into this, telling him how great he is at getting her to do what they want. Whether Donna actually believes this or is manipulating him into doing her bidding by making it seem like it’s for his sister, is anyone’s guess. I believe Donna played them against each other a lot.

ETA

In my opinion, Donna wanted this murder done, and she got Charlie to arrange it, maybe by making him think it was for Wendi’s own good, because Dan was causing Wendi so much grief. Not that he wasn’t causing her grief, of course. But in my opinion, Charlie may have been getting a very distorted picture from Donna about just how upset Wendi was. Also, it seems to me that Donna may have a hard time separating her own feelings from Wendi’s, just going by her emails in which she seems to be speaking as though she were Wendi at certain points when discussing arguments to be made in favor of relocation; (many of these arguments apply to Donna, such as the argument that the business is losing money.). So when she is talking about how upset Wendi is, she may be doing a fair amount of projecting her own feelings on to her. This does not mean I don’t think Wendi was upset with Dan, or involved or knew about the murder. I just think that when Donna is talking about Wendi, she may be talking about herself. But Charlie may not be aware of all this.

Yes you bring up a good point.
Donnas “motherly, nurturing” way of talking to Charlie is very hard to hear, because she sounds like the consummate, loving motherly type. Such a contrast to what she truly is, displayed on her emails, and at the hearing, which revealed her true nature.
Did she use her son to off her “problem“?
Did she know what he was ((allegedly)) doing in the Phillipines and elseehere, taking advantage of underaged girls?
Did Wendi really despise her brother for the same?
Was this a truly disjointed family, pretending to be so intricately involved in every detail of one another’s lives, just for their own selfish purposes ?

There are so many dynamics going on here which is why I think so many are obsessed with this case!
The “good Jewish family” with all the kids professionals….smart,money, yet such evil.
A true contrast. How can you ever trust anyone?

 

[amicuscurie]

snipping just to jump off that point

remember the first DA- CA call after the bump? She's at Ikon and asks CA to bring cash to pay for dinner because she doesn't have enough cash, which in their cryptic language is - imo - code for the $5k.

I wondered whether - at this early stage just minutes after Bump - she entertained paying it?
No safe at Ikon? Not enough cash in safe at Ikon? Or Harvey might've noticed if she'd taken $5k out

just spitballin....

Yes, that makes sense to me, why else would she have said to bring cash? She may have been unsure whether she had enough; when he says he might not have enough, she says she will look at what she has. We do know that there is a call between them where Charlie seems to be telling her to call them and offer to pay (this is the one where she says he has her “letter” written, which might mean she has prepared what to say to them). Then, there is a recording of her actually calling the bump guy. Strangely, she appears to “go rogue” on this call, in that she does NOT offer to pay and just screams how she is super stressed and wasn’t involved (IT’S NOT MEEEE!!). This call, in my opinion, makes no sense unless she WAS invloved- WHAT “isn’t her?” What does she think this guy is talking about? And she says she’s talked to friends and asked them what she should do. Why would you do that if you were just randomly shaken down for money and had no idea what it was about and weren’t involved?

 

[cottonweaver]

I omitted questions around Charlie's insecurity, just cause post would've been too long but wonder what other people think of that?

Obviously it's pure speculation but, to me, he veers between boss-man and little boy in the jail calls. (Eldest Rob had virtually been cancelled. ) Highest earner? but middle child. Seeking approval and status?

Rob, eldest.
Wendi is Daddy's princess?
She might also have been Grandma's too? ( see next post about Donna's mother )

replying to self cause have now found that old Grandma Jacobs post re Wendi


‘Grandma Lorraine and Wendi had an exquisitely close relationship, and it was always a profound regret that Grandma passed away five years before Wendi and Danny began dating. There is so much to say about her that we could spend literally hours sharing stories. Suffice it to say, Grandma Lorraine occupies a magical and persistent presence in Wendi’s heart. And for that reason, and the unstinting love she showered upon her family, and especially Wendi, we have chosen to name our son with the Hebrew name, Lev. We know that if Grandma were here today in person, she would be beaming with pride and joy for all that her grand-daughter has done and become. We also know that right now, Grandma Lorraine is dancing with delight in the heavens above, and we take great comfort in sharing her sense of vitality and good humor with our son.’

Jacobshttps://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2009/08/cubby-markels-got-a-name-or-two-or-three.html

Grandma is also referenced by Donna in one of her old emails telling Wendi to ' fight like hell' , like Grandma would have done or wtte

<modsnip: encourages sleuthing of innocent people>

 

[Knitpicker]

Yes, that makes sense to me, why else would she have said to bring cash? She may have been unsure whether she had enough; when he says he might not have enough, she says she will look at what she has. We do know that there is a call between them where Charlie seems to be telling her to call them and offer to pay (this is the one where she says he has her “letter” written, which might mean she has prepared what to say to them). Then, there is a recording of her actually calling the bump guy. Strangely, she appears to “go rogue” on this call, in that she does NOT offer to pay and just screams how she is super stressed and wasn’t involved (IT’S NOT MEEEE!!). This call, in my opinion, makes no sense unless she WAS invloved- WHAT “isn’t her?” What does she think this guy is talking about? And she says she’s talked to friends and asked them what she should do. Why would you do that if you were just randomly shaken down for money and had no idea what it was about and weren’t involved?

Do you remember the call about the suitcase and how she was going to travel to Charlies,which would be at ;east half an hour without traffic to borrow his suitcase? Could be money was passed around back and forth? Was most of their money kept at Charlies? Could it be H and D passed by C’s on their way to Orlando not to drop off the cash and just to tell him something in person?
Charlie states on the direct that he told Katie he had the money in his safe the 333K of his part), (seemed to boast that on the stand), then he says later he only had 138K in his safe. It could be that Charlie kept the family $ in his own house.
Any thoughts on this?

 

[Knitpicker]

replying to self cause have now found that old Grandma Jacobs post re Wendi


‘Grandma Lorraine and Wendi had an exquisitely close relationship, and it was always a profound regret that Grandma passed away five years before Wendi and Danny began dating. There is so much to say about her that we could spend literally hours sharing stories. Suffice it to say, Grandma Lorraine occupies a magical and persistent presence in Wendi’s heart. And for that reason, and the unstinting love she showered upon her family, and especially Wendi, we have chosen to name our son with the Hebrew name, Lev. We know that if Grandma were here today in person, she would be beaming with pride and joy for all that her grand-daughter has done and become. We also know that right now, Grandma Lorraine is dancing with delight in the heavens above, and we take great comfort in sharing her sense of vitality and good humor with our son.’

Jacobshttps://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2009/08/cubby-markels-got-a-name-or-two-or-three.html

Grandma is also referenced by Donna in one of her old emails telling Wendi to ' fight like hell' , like Grandma would have done or wtte

<modsnip>

I just read that last night. Wendi lied on the stand that the child middle name was a combination of her side and Dan’s. The name was chosen bc he was an Israeli poet that Dan liked. I found that interesting, Unless I read it wrong.
It was the poets last name

 

[amicuscurie]

replying to self cause have now found that old Grandma Jacobs post re Wendi


‘Grandma Lorraine and Wendi had an exquisitely close relationship, and it was always a profound regret that Grandma passed away five years before Wendi and Danny began dating. There is so much to say about her that we could spend literally hours sharing stories. Suffice it to say, Grandma Lorraine occupies a magical and persistent presence in Wendi’s heart. And for that reason, and the unstinting love she showered upon her family, and especially Wendi, we have chosen to name our son with the Hebrew name, Lev. We know that if Grandma were here today in person, she would be beaming with pride and joy for all that her grand-daughter has done and become. We also know that right now, Grandma Lorraine is dancing with delight in the heavens above, and we take great comfort in sharing her sense of vitality and good humor with our son.’

Jacobshttps://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2009/08/cubby-markels-got-a-name-or-two-or-three.html

Grandma is also referenced by Donna in one of her old emails telling Wendi to ' fight like hell' , like Grandma would have done or wtte

<modsnip>

Is this the same grandma who Wendi quotes in her police interview as saying “you can’t have your tuchus in two places at once?” (As I noted in a previous post, I’m willing to wager that this is the first and only time the word “tuchus” has been uttered in the Tallahassee police station.)

On Court TV, Ruth was asked about Uncle Lazar’s ring, which she notes Wendi still has. She says that this ring has no emotional value for Wendi, and that Wendi actually wanted to wear her grandmother’s engagement ring at her wedding, which nobody had a problem with. So it does seem like this was an important grandmother. Ruth says she thins the grandmother lived with the Adelsons at some point when the kids were growing up. Interesting the apples that apparently sprung from that tree.

So, it seems the older boy’s Hebrew FIRST name was after that grandmother. I would imagine she didn’t change that, because it doesn’t really matter as it’s not a legal name that anyone sees. She did change this son’s official middle name, which was also a Hebrew word, and which allegedly honored both families. I don’t remember which of Wendi’s family this name was supposed to reference, but Dan wrote about it on Prof’s Blawg as well.

 

[amicuscurie]

I just read that last night. Wendi lied on the stand that the child middle name was a combination of her side and Dan’s. The name was chosen bc he was an Israeli poet that Dan liked. I found that interesting, Unless I read it wrong.
It was the poets last name

I think Dan wrote on his Blawg that it was after the poet but also had some reference to someone in Wendi’s family as well with respect to one of the letters in it. It seemed to me like a very convoluted origin story for the name, which may have reflected months of tense negotiations between the couple and their family; I don’t know for sure, but I imagine neither Wendi nor Donna was too thrilled about naming the son after some obscure Israeli poet that nobody can pronounce that wasn’t a relative and only had meaning to Dan. (The guttural “ch” can be difficult for English speakers)

 

[Knitpicker]

Is this the same grandma who Wendi quotes in her police interview as saying “you can’t have your tuchus in two places at once?” (As I noted in a previous post, I’m willing to wager that this is the first and only time the word “tuchus” has been uttered in the Tallahassee police station.)

On Court TV, Ruth was asked about Uncle Lazar’s ring, which she notes Wendi still has. She says that this ring has no emotional value for Wendi, and that Wendi actually wanted to wear her grandmother’s engagement ring at her wedding, which nobody had a problem with. So it does seem like this was an important grandmother. Ruth says she think the grandmother lives with the Adelsons at some point when the kids were growing up. Interesting the apples that sprung from that tree.

So, it seems the older boy’s Hebrew FIRST name was after that grandmother. I would imagine she didn’t change that, because it doesn’t really matter as it’s not a legal name that anyone sees. She did change this son’s official middle name, which was also a Hebrew word, and which allegedly honored both families. I don’t remember which of Wendi’s family this name was supposed to reference, but Dan wrote about it on Prof’s Blawg as well.

Almost sure the middle name was the Israeli poets last name. I read that last night on the blog.I think the same entry. My head is spinning once again . Oy vey!

 

[amicuscurie]

Almost sure the middle name was the Israeli poets last name. I read that last night on the blog.I think the same entry. My head is spinning once again . Oy vey!

See above- it was for the poet but also supposedly had some small passing reference to a letter in the name of some relative of Wendi’s, according to Dan’s blog.

 

[Knitpicker]

Agreed. Armchair psychiatrist, Just My Opinion: Charlie might have felt that Rob’s banishment gave him an opportunity to move up the ladder in his Mom’s estimation, OR, that with Rob gone, the focus was going to be on him to step into the role of family golden boy, and he might not have felt like he was ready for or capable of that. This Wendi situation may have been, in his view, an opportunity to prove to the family that he could be their protector/fixer, that he was “good enough.” But, in my opinion, he wasn’t, he greatly overestimated his capacity, and ruined the family instead.

Or it could be that all his life,mom doted on Robert and once he was out of the picture Charlie can get all mom’s attention. Remember when he was asked by GC who was his mom’s favorite? He responded like a little boy vying for moms attention

 

[cottonweaver]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>
@amicuscurie I missed this. Just goes to show even if one listens to an audio several times- stuff still gets missed

Wendi quotes in her police interview as saying “you can’t have your tuchus in two places at once?”

 

[amicuscurie]

<modsnip - quoted post was religious discussion not specific to this case>

The poet thing is strange to me, but perhaps they were very close. Also, usually in my experience the name is for one person, maybe the first name for one side and the middle for the other. To me it seems unusual to say that the whole name is for one special person, but also that this one letter could work for the other side of the family. I guess the rationale could have been that “Lev” was for Wendi’s family and so the middle name could be something Dan wanted. But that doesn’t seem fair to me, because “Lev” isn’t the name that anyone is going to see, whereas the middle name was actually going on official documents. Also, why make a big deal about how the “A” can also reference Wendi’s family?

No, I don’t know any of this, of course, but to me, it reads like Dan might have wanted to use that poet’s name, and then when Wendi or he family perhaps objected, they might have come up with a story about how it could also work for one of Wendy’s family members who happened to have a name that began with that letter. And, of course, we know she changed it as soon as she could. I can practically HEAR the fight they might have had over this.

Do you remember the call about the suitcase and how she was going to travel to Charlies,which would be at ;east half an hour without traffic to borrow his suitcase? Could be money was passed around back and forth? Was most of their money kept at Charlies? Could it be H and D passed by C’s on their way to Orlando not to drop off the cash and just to tell him something in person?
Charlie states on the direct that he told Katie he had the money in his safe the 333K of his part), (seemed to boast that on the stand), then he says later he only had 138K in his safe. It could be that Charlie kept the family $ in his own house.
Any thoughts on this?

This has always puzzled me, because as I recall, Ryan and June both testified they had seen stapled cash in a safe in Charlie’s house. But Katie said that Charlie told her he did not keep cash in his house, and that his parents had brought it. There are some texts that we’ve seen, as I recall, with messages between Donna and Charlie about moving cash between them, and the business probably had cash there. But why would Charlie have a safe if he didn’t keep cash in it? Maybe either Katie got it wrong, and Charlie was saying he just didn’t have enough cash that day, or maybe he didn’t want her to know he kept cash there? As I said, it is puzzling. The cash probably did come from the business, or at least most of it, I would think. At that time I believe Charlie owned the business, having bought it from Harvey, and Donna worked there. Seems to me like there may have been a family pool of cash they drew from.

 

[IQuestion]

See above- it was for the poet but also supposedly had some small passing reference to a letter in the name of some relative of Wendi’s, according to Dan’s blog.

From Prawfsblawg..."Cubby’s middle name, Amichai. As many of you know, the Hebrew name Amichai was the last name of the great Israeli poet, Yehuda Amichai, who died almost a decade ago. During the transformative year that Danny lived in Israel after college, Danny had the chance to meet with Yehuda several times informally, at parties, in Yemin Moshe, or on the bus, when they would serendipitously meet up en route to buy vegetables at the market..."
Having read the entire "blogging?" it seems apparent anything important/special to DanM was purposely erased after his murder. Damn, head shaking, sad heart (can't think of one word to encompass feeling) when I read how deeply he felt about naming his son and combining it with his life experiences.
(Lamenting....Nowadays it seems people name their children after a popular soap opera character instead of honoring family.)

 

[opt]

What do you think of the notion that Donna helped cook-up the elaborate double extortion with Charlie in the run-up to the trial?

<modsnip - no link>

The double extortion defense could have been effective for DA if CA had not burned it up. DA’s response to the bump would still have been hard to explain, but one juror might have bought it as reasonable doubt.

 

[amicuscurie]

<modsnip - no link>

The double extortion defense could have been effective for DA if CA had not burned it up. DA’s response to the bump would still have been hard to explain, but one juror might have bought it as reasonable doubt.

True. I still say she had a pretty good defense that she didn’t know what the checks were for, except for the bump. The biggest thing against her, in my opinion, (other than the bump) is that her name is on the checks. There is no evidence that I’ve seen to show any direct communication between her and Katie or the killers.

The extortion defense might still work for her, IMO, even better than for Charlie. Because the jury wouldn’t have to believe it was true, necessarily, or that the extortion actually happened. She would just have to argue that she believed what Charlie told her, that he was being extorted. For Charlie, on the other hand, the story would have to be true, and I think the jury found it preposterous. But, IMO, Donna might not have that issue, if she just argues that Charlie told her he was being extorted. She could say, as he did, that he came to her after the fact and told her to start paying Katie. Of course, there is some evidence to suggest she dropped off the money, but even if true, she could still say that he told her that night about the extortion, and asked her to come by with the money. It would be more difficult, possibly with the timing and when Katie allegedly got there to extort him, but it could be a defense.

 

[Knitpicker]

<modsnip>

The poet thing is strange to me, but perhaps they were very close. Also, usually in my experience the name is for one person, maybe the first name for one side and the middle for the other. To me it seems unusual to say that the whole name is for one special person, but also that this one letter could work for the other side of the family. I guess the rationale could have been that “Lev” was for Wendi’s family and so the middle name could be something Dan wanted. But that doesn’t seem fair to me, because “Lev” isn’t the name that anyone is going to see, whereas the middle name was actually going on official documents. Also, why make a big deal about how the “A” can also reference Wendi’s family?

No, I don’t know any of this, of course, but to me, it reads like Dan might have wanted to use that poet’s name, and then when Wendi or he family perhaps objected, they might have come up with a story about how it could also work for one of Wendy’s family members who happened to have a name that began with that letter. And, of course, we know she changed it as soon as she could. I can practically HEAR the fight they might have had over this.

This has always puzzled me, because as I recall, Ryan and June both testified they had seen stapled cash in a safe in Charlie’s house. But Katie said that Charlie told her he did not keep cash in his house, and that his parents had brought it. There are some texts that we’ve seen, as I recall, with messages between Donna and Charlie about moving cash between them, and the business probably had cash there. But why would Charlie have a safe if he didn’t keep cash in it? Maybe either Katie got it wrong, and Charlie was saying he just didn’t have enough cash that day, or maybe he didn’t want her to know he kept cash there? As I said, it is puzzling. The cash probably did come from the business, or at least most of it, I would think. At that time I believe Charlie owned the business, having bought it from Harvey, and Donna worked there. Seems to me like there may have been a family pool of cash they drew from.

I think he didn’t want her to know. Yet yes at first he said “I have the money in my safe” in re the 333K
sorRay I dont know how to respond to a double link. I thought I was responding to the second part.

 

[Knitpicker]

<modsnip>

@amicuscurie I missed this. Just goes to show even if one listens to an audio several times- stuff still gets missed

Long drawn out..yes. And time for me to get back to “real life” lol.
I was wondering bc Wendi spent time there getting her masters right?
And Charlie did mention it.
I’m wondering if Donna has reached out at all to Robert, since she cant talk to Charlie.
in desperation. I’m sure not.
Will Robert be a witness? Maybe only about what they discussed at H’s 70th.
Was that the last time he saw them all? I thought so.

 

[Knitpicker]

True. I still say she had a pretty good defense that she didn’t know what the checks were for, except for the bump. The biggest thing against her, in my opinion, (other than the bump) is that her name is on the checks. There is no evidence that I’ve seen to show any direct communication between her and Katie or the killers.

The extortion defense might still work for her, IMO, even better than for Charlie. Because the jury wouldn’t have to believe it was true, necessarily, or that the extortion actually happened. She would just have to argue that she believed what Charlie told her, that he was being extorted. For Charlie, on the other hand, the story would have to be true, and I think the jury found it preposterous. But, IMO, Donna might not have that issue, if she just argues that Charlie told her he was being extorted. She could say, as he did, that he came to her after the fact and told her to start paying Katie. Of course, there is some evidence to suggest she dropped off the money, but even if true, she could still say that he told her that night about the extortion, and asked her to come by with the money. It would be more difficult, possibly with the timing and when Katie allegedly got there to extort him, but it could be a defense.

I agree with you. That’’s what I think will be the defense.
I am so surprised that with all their cash they didn’t just pay K in cash.
The trap was that she needed a G-v plan for the insurance -so she needed to prove employment.
she needed the paycheck. The fact that the last check was right before SG’s arrest is also bad for her. That means she knew what was going on, right?

 

[amicuscurie]

From Prawfsblawg..."Cubby’s middle name, Amichai. As many of you know, the Hebrew name Amichai was the last name of the great Israeli poet, Yehuda Amichai, who died almost a decade ago. During the transformative year that Danny lived in Israel after college, Danny had the chance to meet with Yehuda several times informally, at parties, in Yemin Moshe, or on the bus, when they would serendipitously meet up en route to buy vegetables at the market..."
Having read the entire "blogging?" it seems apparent anything important/special to DanM was purposely erased after his murder. Damn, head shaking, sad heart (can't think of one word to encompass feeling) when I read how deeply he felt about naming his son and combining it with his life experiences.
(Lamenting....Nowadays it seems people name their children after a popular soap opera character instead of honoring family.)

Ok, bring out the pitchforks: this doesn’t justify murder, of course, nor is it meant to. But, the blog you quote goes on to make a point of saying at the very end, if I recall correctly, that the name also starts with an “A,” and one of Wendi’s deceased relatives also had a name that started with an “A.” This, coupled with the fact that she changed it as soon as she could, to me suggest that there may have been some disagreement as to the decision to name their firstborn son, and that some concession was hastily made to Wendi’s family to resolve (or paper over) the dispute, but it may have always bothered her. (That’s why her whole “both families lost an honor” rings false to me.)


I don’t know, of course, just speculating. In my opinion, just like with the Kosher food at the wedding, the A family may have balked at what Dan wanted with the name. All of this simply does not bode well for a good marriage, in my opinion. Couples should, ideally, be able to agree that BOTH people have to like the name for it to be considered at all. This, to me, speaks less to the validity of the choice and more to the underlying communication problems which may have been in the relationship from the beginning.

Again, doesn’t justify murder, Im not saying that at all. But that’s one thing that fascinates me about this case, how absolutely doomed this relationship seemed to me to be from the start.

I happen to know two couples who engaged in such “name compromises.” In one, the child was called by two names all the time (first and middle) because they couldnt agree on a first name. (Think, “John Peter.” All the time.) That kid now goes by just his first name, of course, and they’re divorced. In the other, the couple decided to give the kid the name one parent wanted, but to stick a letter in front of it that was the first letter of the name the OTHER one wanted, with no period. (Think, “Kmichael”. I kid you not.). They are also divorced.

 

[IQuestion]

See above- it was for the poet but also supposedly had some small passing reference to a letter in the name of some relative of Wendi’s, according to Dan’s blog.

Yeppers....in my opinion...WA talks in circles until something fits her agenda/story/actions. Such as why she was on Trescott is a classic example:
a) I am geographically challenged
b) I drive by often as a way of dealing with, coming to terms with my divorce (2 years earlier.) Ironically when DM or JL were encountered (outside of her planned dalliances), she labeled them as "stalkers." LOL....classic reaction formation!
c) Trescott was a shortcut to the liquor store (that was 15 fmiles out of her way)
d) Since the first letter of middle name starts with "A," we lost an honor to both our families. But Adelson starts with an "A" so go figure!