FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #25

[Going Rogue]

Is this some kind of "purity of belief" test for whether someone can post their opinion about Wendi's guilt or innocence?

"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition"...

This is actually one of the safest places to provide an objective opinion on the case. In other places you are tarred and feathered if you say anything the remotely suggests Wendi deserves any presumption of innocence. I appreciate your post.

 

[Zedzded]

In the state of FL, if you have knowledge a crime is going to happen, you are under no legal obligation to report it. Wendi having either direct knowledge or a very strong suspicion that her family was plotting to murder Dan is not a crime.

Under US federal law title 18 you can charged with misprison of a felony if you have prior knowledge that a crime will be committed and don’t report that crime to authorities. It relates to a case in New York in the 1930s when a woman was raped and attacked over a period of 30mins and a number of bystanders did not contact the police when they had ample opportunity to. It was known as the bystander effect.

It's a very old statute, rarely used and I think it's been repealed in most common law countries like Australia because it's just too hard to apply in a lot of cases. Charging someone with a felony for just standing by and not doing anything seems quite extreme. What if they were scared or intimidated? What if they had a nervous disposition? What if they were frozen in the moment like a deer in the headlights, should they still be charged? So its a statute fraught with complexities, hence the reason it's rarely used. However there are cases when it could still be very applicable i.e when your friend tells you they are going to blow up a building, they show you the bomb and you don't report it, hundreds die. You think you won't be charged?

 

[Cedars]

Under US federal law title 18 you can charged with misprison of a felony if you have prior knowledge that a crime will be committed and don’t report that crime to authorities. It relates to a case in New York in the 1930s when a woman was raped and attacked over a period of 30mins and a number of bystanders did not contact the police when they had ample opportunity to. It was known as the bystander effect.

It's a very old statute, rarely used and I think it's been repealed in most common law countries like Australia because it's just too hard to apply in a lot of cases. Charging someone with a felony for just standing by and not doing anything seems quite extreme. What if they were scared or intimidated? What if they had a nervous disposition? What if they were frozen in the moment like a deer in the headlights, should they still be charged? So its a statute fraught with complexities, hence the reason it's rarely used. However there are cases when it could still be very applicable i.e when your friend tells you they are going to blow up a building, they show you the bomb and you don't report it, hundreds die. You think you won't be charged?

I feel like I've seen cases where the person just says "I didn't believe them. I thought they were just joking/trying to impress me, etc" However I can't cite any just now.

IMO, the courts prosecute peope for actions, not thoughts. Because they can't prove thoughts. Also, you may 'believe' a crime will be comitted - but what if it never happens? Are you guilty of not reporting a crime that never happened?

In any case, I think it's perfectly possible the conspirators didn't tell Wendi because she was a lawyer, and they couldn't predict what she'd say or do, what with her being potentially pro-law, as lawyers often are.

JMO

 

[Zedzded]

I feel like I've seen cases where the person just says "I didn't believe them. I thought they were just joking/trying to impress me, etc" However I can't cite any just now.

IMO, the courts prosecute peope for actions, not thoughts. Because they can't prove thoughts. Also, you may 'believe' a crime will be comitted - but what if it never happens? Are you guilty of not reporting a crime that never happened?

In any case, I think it's perfectly possible the conspirators didn't tell Wendi because she was a lawyer, and they couldn't predict what she'd say or do, what with her being potentially pro-law, as lawyers often are.

JMO

There would be a ton of examples where people would genuinely think someone was joking when they weren't e.g mild mannered kids threatening to bring a gun to school and everyone dismisses their statements as a joke or disingenuous. So they would not be charged. Similarly if someone genuinely planned on robbing a bank, told you, you never reported it and they changed their mind again you would not be charged. It's a law fraught with complexities and it's really aimed at people that can see a crime is taking place and don't contact the authorities and their inaction allows that crime to be committed. i.e the Genovese case I cited previously, people could see the attack was taking place outside their houses and did not do anything for 30+ minutes. All they had to do was phone the police and the woman's life could have been saved.

So it's a very specific and nuanced law and easily defendable in a lot of situations. However in WA's situation if it can be proven that CA told her he fully intended to hire hitmen to kill DanM and she took him seriously and did nothing to stop it then I believe she can be charged with misprison of a felony. I think the evidence will be strong enough for her to charged as an accessory, but at the very least they can get her for misprison.

 

[Zedzded]

In any case, I think it's perfectly possible the conspirators didn't tell Wendi because she was a lawyer, and they couldn't predict what she'd say or do, what with her being potentially pro-law, as lawyers often are.

The murder plot was something that slowly evolved. I don't think CA woke up one day and said "lets kill Dan." I think WA was very vocal in how much she hated DanM, how much she hated Tallahassee and how desperate she was to leave. They tried the legal route and failed, they came up with the bribe and when they realised that wouldn't work I think CA maybe thought up the plan of beating DanM up or threatening him. I don't think he would have had a problem conveying his plans to WA and when it morphed into murder it wasn't so difficult for WA to get her head around.

I do believe they kept the specifics of the crime from here, but for her not to know is unfathomable.

 

[Cedars]

The murder plot was something that slowly evolved. I don't think CA woke up one day and said "lets kill Dan." I think WA was very vocal in how much she hated DanM, how much she hated Tallahassee and how desperate she was to leave. They tried the legal route and failed, they came up with the bribe and when they realised that wouldn't work I think CA maybe thought up the plan of beating DanM up or threatening him. I don't think he would have had a problem conveying his plans to WA and when it morphed into murder it wasn't so difficult for WA to get her head around.

I do believe they kept the specifics of the crime from here, but for her not to know is unfathomable.

I am a fact-based person, I am interested in evidence, just like the legal system.

I know when I "know" something, because of either my direct experience, or highly reliable testimony from reliable others who themselves have direct experience.

You were not there, you cannot "know" anything about it. You can only speculate, as can I.

JMO

 

[Going Rogue]

Under US federal law title 18 you can charged with misprison of a felony if you have prior knowledge that a crime will be committed and don’t report that crime to authorities. It relates to a case in New York in the 1930s when a woman was raped and attacked over a period of 30mins and a number of bystanders did not contact the police when they had ample opportunity to. It was known as the bystander effect.

It's a very old statute, rarely used and I think it's been repealed in most common law countries like Australia because it's just too hard to apply in a lot of cases. Charging someone with a felony for just standing by and not doing anything seems quite extreme. What if they were scared or intimidated? What if they had a nervous disposition? What if they were frozen in the moment like a deer in the headlights, should they still be charged? So its a statute fraught with complexities, hence the reason it's rarely used. However there are cases when it could still be very applicable i.e when your friend tells you they are going to blow up a building, they show you the bomb and you don't report it, hundreds die. You think you won't be charged?

If they can prove she was aware of the plot, they can charge her with perjury, obstruction of justice and accessory after the fact based on Florida Statutes. That doesn’t change the fact that knowledge of a crime and not reporting it is not a crime in the state of Fl. If the Fed’s charge her (unlikely in my opinion) than I suppose the Florida Statutes will not matter and she’d subject to Federal Statutes.

 

[Zedzded]

If they can prove she was aware of the plot, they can charge her with perjury, obstruction of justice and accessory after the fact based on Florida Statutes. That doesn’t change the fact that knowledge of a crime and not reporting it is not a crime in the state of Fl. If the Fed’s charge her (unlikely in my opinion) than I suppose the Florida Statutes will not matter and she’d subject to Federal Statutes.

Yeah I understand Federal charges are unlikely, but it does seem , if you consider all the evidence, that it is inevitable WA will be charged with something.

I think they can prove she was aware of the plot. If they can't prove conspiracy to commit murder it's not because WA was really diligent and cautious ensuring she had distanced herself from the crime sufficiently to avoid being charged. I think it would be mostly down to luck. WA has proven herself to be reckless, very impulsive and just chaotic in the way she thinks and acts. For every action she did to protect herself she's done 5 things to incriminate herself. Like that bankrobber that had the foresight to wear a motorbike helmet to hide his identity but forgot it had his full name printed on the back.. You just look at Carl Steinbeck's list of things WA did that incriminated herself and whilst most of it can be dismissed, it really exemplifies what a complete and utter train wreck she was and is.

So it does not seem plausible she's managed to ensure she is 100% distanced from the crime to the point she can avoid being charged as an accessory. She simply does not have the smarts, composure or insight to protect herself.

 

[Zedzded]

I am a fact-based person, I am interested in evidence, just like the legal system.

I know when I "know" something, because of either my direct experience, or highly reliable testimony from reliable others who themselves have direct experience.

You were not there, you cannot "know" anything about it. You can only speculate, as can I.

JMO

Sure most of what I write is speculation. But it's not wild, fanciful speculative statements. It's statements based on what likely happened. Based on what I've read. I'm not putting 2+2 together and coming up with bananas. It would seem logical that CA considered all options other than murder prior to deciding to kill DanM and these options were conveyed to WA. So not fact, but it's a likely scenario.

 

[Knitpicker]

Under US federal law title 18 you can charged with misprison of a felony if you have prior knowledge that a crime will be committed and don’t report that crime to authorities. It relates to a case in New York in the 1930s when a woman was raped and attacked over a period of 30mins and a number of bystanders did not contact the police when they had ample opportunity to. It was known as the bystander effect.

It's a very old statute, rarely used and I think it's been repealed in most common law countries like Australia because it's just too hard to apply in a lot of cases. Charging someone with a felony for just standing by and not doing anything seems quite extreme. What if they were scared or intimidated? What if they had a nervous disposition? What if they were frozen in the moment like a deer in the headlights, should they still be charged? So its a statute fraught with complexities, hence the reason it's rarely used. However there are cases when it could still be very applicable i.e when your friend tells you they are going to blow up a building, they show you the bomb and you don't report it, hundreds die. You think you won't be charged?

The movie “The Accused”.

 

[Cedars]

Sure most of what I write is speculation. But it's not wild, fanciful speculative statements. It's statements based on what likely happened. Based on what I've read. I'm not putting 2+2 together and coming up with bananas. It would seem logical that CA considered all options other than murder prior to deciding to kill DanM and these options were conveyed to WA. So not fact, but it's a likely scenario.

Possibly. But how killers think is very mysterious.

For eg, in the case of the Pike County massacre, which was also about child custody, the disputed child's mother apparently wrote a facebook message to a friend that "they'll have to kill me first", before she'd sign custody papers. The grandparents had broken into her FB account, and when they read that message they decided "Okay, then that's what we'll do".

I just find the reality of crimes is so much stranger than fiction, normal people can't make it up.

'We have to do it': Jake Wagner takes stand in brother's trial in Pike County massacre

WAVERLY, Ohio (WKRC) - Jake Wagner is expected to take the stand Monday in the trial of his brother, George Wagner in Pike County.It's not clear yet if he will

local12.com

JMO

 

[Zedzded]

I just find the reality of crimes is so much stranger than fiction, normal people can't make it up.

Yup. I mean I can't really get inside the head of a socio/psychopath. It still blows my mind that they chose to kill DanM and lose everything they'd worked their whole lived for when they could have just chosen to accept WA was going to live in Tallahassee.

 

[Marysmith]

Yup. I mean I can't really get inside the head of a socio/psychopath. It still blows my mind that they chose to kill DanM and lose everything they'd worked their whole lived for when they could have just chosen to accept WA was going to live in Tallahassee.

Right? Like my god she was in the same state and he loved her son's.

 

[Zedzded]

Has KM ever been asked on the stand if she spoke to or communicated with WA on the day of the murder? I know WA was asked that question and denied it.

 

[Going Rogue]

Yeah I understand Federal charges are unlikely, but it does seem , if you consider all the evidence, that it is inevitable WA will be charged with something.

I think they can prove she was aware of the plot. If they can't prove conspiracy to commit murder it's not because WA was really diligent and cautious ensuring she had distanced herself from the crime sufficiently to avoid being charged. I think it would be mostly down to luck. WA has proven herself to be reckless, very impulsive and just chaotic in the way she thinks and acts. For every action she did to protect herself she's done 5 things to incriminate herself. Like that bankrobber that had the foresight to wear a motorbike helmet to hide his identity but forgot it had his full name printed on the back.. You just look at Carl Steinbeck's list of things WA did that incriminated herself and whilst most of it can be dismissed, it really exemplifies what a complete and utter train wreck she was and is.

So it does not seem plausible she's managed to ensure she is 100% distanced from the crime to the point she can avoid being charged as an accessory. She simply does not have the smarts, composure or insight to protect herself.

Based on the way Jeff described Wendi, she definitely appears to be a train wreck and very impulsive in the way she thinks and acts. If the case against Wendi was to simply to prove she is a walking train wreck, that would be easy work with testimony from Jeff alone. The problem is she wouldn’t be on trial for just being a train wreck, the state would need to prove she conspired with her family to murder Dan if the charges were conspiracy to commit and I’m not so convinced she will eventually be charged with something.

As far as Carl’s list, I think you summed it up pretty good yourself when you said - “most of it can be dismissed”. In his list, once you get past motive and the elements that prove she was a bad person that hated Dan, there isn’t anything that proves she was directly involved. There is a lot of speculation based on his opinion of certain events and he delivers that message in a very emotionally charged way with a very strong bias. My personal opinion is he grossly oversimplifies the strength of the states case against Wendi and has influenced a lot of people since he burst into the scene.

I also agree that it does not seem plausible that she managed to ensure she is 100% distanced from the crime. Maybe that is the best argument that can be made to support the theory that she might have been purposely left out of the plot since this happened more than 10 years ago and she hasn’t been charged and we agree the case against her is weak. I need to stress that I am not saying I believe she is innocent but I’m struggling to understand why so many dismiss the possibility that Donna and Charlie may have done this behind her back. I saw your other post that we can’t get inside the mind of a psychopath, and I agree 100% which is why the often argued point that there is no way they would do this without Wendi’s approval is a ridiculous argument. There is no protocol or book of ethics that psychopaths follow when they are planning a murder. Donna and Charlie did not need Wendi blessing and there are many events the that would suggest that they may have left her out of the loop.

 

[Going Rogue]

Has KM ever been asked on the stand if she spoke to or communicated with WA on the day of the murder? I know WA was asked that question and denied it.

Yes, she made it clear that other than the two times they met in person (the restaurant and beach) they never spoke or communicated. I’m 100% sure she said this in her proffer and I’m fairly certain she also was asked about this when she testified as well but it’s possible it was just said in her proffer

 

[browneyes]

I'd love to see WA go down for this because I feel like anyone with a few brain cells to rub together knows she knew, BUT I also respect that sometimes the justice system cannot prove it to the standard that they need to, and if that is the case then I'll just have to live with that.

I AM very much looking forward to Grandma Gotti going down for this, though.

I have felt since the original Dateline that WA was involved. She came across as so smug. She set this whole thing in motion. I hope she is arrested soon. Where is her dad? Maybe he will roll on Wendi to get a deal for his wife. I cannot believe this family was so dumb. They remind me of this family. CA woman gets life term for killing ill husband
Such a good Dateline.

 

[PrairieWind]

Misprison requires an actual step to conceal the crime, not just mere knowledge of its occurrence. And it would only apply to concealing a federal felony.

 

[Cedars]

I have felt since the original Dateline that WA was involved. She came across as so smug. She set this whole thing in motion. I hope she is arrested soon. Where is her dad? Maybe he will roll on Wendi to get a deal for his wife. I cannot believe this family was so dumb. They remind me of this family. CA woman gets life term for killing ill husband
Such a good Dateline.

Yes, who needs the legal system, we've got Dateline!

 

[jbc]

I'd love to see WA go down for this because I feel like anyone with a few brain cells to rub together knows she knew, BUT I also respect that sometimes the justice system cannot prove it to the standard that they need to, and if that is the case then I'll just have to live with that.

I AM very much looking forward to Grandma Gotti going down for this, though.

Tried, convicted, or not, I'm just satisfied with the knowledge that WA's gotta be thinking to herself multiple times every day..."yeah, how'd that work out for ya?" I'd think she has to be a tortured prisoner in her own mind.