GUILTY FL - Jordan Davis, 17, shot to death, Satellite Beach, 23 Nov 2012 #1

[mobeydick]

Thanks for the info, mobeydick.

So this sounds like if, after an investigation, IF the investigation finds the force to be justifiable then that's when the immunity comes in. Do people get arrested while the investigation goes on and then charges are dropped if it's found to be justifiable? Someone has to rule it as justifiable in order for the civil action immunity to kick in. The person isn't immune to "criminal prosecution" until their actions are deemed justified...clearly, Mr. Dunn's actions weren't immediately deemed justified, and still haven't been. Personally, I would hope someone using force would be detained during an investigation--who is to say they aren't a danger to themselves or others until a thorough investigation is completed.

So, I'm not really sure how the immunity thing applies here?

In practice it only applys to civil actions.

If LE doesn't charge someone, Civil action cannot be taken. LE made the decision. If LF sends it to the DA and he does not indict the DA made the decision, no civil action can be taken. If the DA sends it to and GJ and they don't indict the GJ made the decision no civil action can be taken. If someone is charged by any of those options and the person claims Selfdefense a Hearing to proceed is ordered, at that time a Judge will hear the states case and the defendants counterclaims and the judge will rule to either proceed or to order the state to dismiss the charges. If he judge orders the case to proceed and the defendent is found not guilty no civil action can take place. If the Judge rules the state doen't have enough evidence to presume a reasonable conviction the will order a dismissal, at that time no civil action can take place.

This whole law was enacted to prevent relitives of people killed in the commision of a cirme from suing the people who killed them!

 

[mobeydick]

Or do you really mean...the word of a white man over black teenagers?

ANY 45yo with no criminal record over any teenagers!

 

[mobeydick]

I don't understand your point.

Section (2) merely says that the use of force is not per se probable cause for arrest. The arresting officer must see other evidence that suggests the use of force was not self-defense. (Like, I don't know, maybe the fact that the shooter is armed and the victim is not.)

What is your evidence that this clause is ignored in Florida?

How about the Zimmerman case, He claims SYG but he was arrested, this case also he claims SYG he was arrested and is still in jail. Name one case in Florida that someone killed someone else and wasn't detained in some fashion. LE letting people justletting people walk away doesn't happen. Zimmeramn was arrested the night of Martin death. He just wasn't booked. The state has a Right/Obglation to investigate deaths. Criminal Immunity is not "given" right-a-way. Civil Immunity is, until a conviction.

 

[Isabelle]

I'll take the word of a 45yo who has no criminal reccord any day over 3 teenagers!

Then there are always the 45 year olds who have not been caught doing anything criminal. That doesn't mean they haven't ever committed a criminal act!

 

[Sonya610]

Then there are always the 45 year olds who have not been caught doing anything criminal. That doesn't mean they haven't ever committed a criminal act!

And "teens" are known to be very impulsive and use very bad judgement. After the thing in Sanford I am not sure the police will try all that hard to find the "real truth".

Something happened and I doubt if the whole story will ever come out.

 

[Nova]

My point was that these boys must not have looked like anyone Dunn wanted to avoid, because he pulled up right beside them and even asked/told them to turn down their music.

That doesn't automatically make them non-violent folks, of course, but we know that he didn't seem concerned by them upon first seeing them. He pulled up beside them of his own accord and engaged with them.

Of course he may have been emboldened by the gun in his pocket or car. (I'm not sure where the gun was at that point.)

 

[Nova]

How about the Zimmerman case, He claims SYG but he was arrested, this case also he claims SYG he was arrested and is still in jail. Name one case in Florida that someone killed someone else and wasn't detained in some fashion. LE letting people justletting people walk away doesn't happen. Zimmeramn was arrested the night of Martin death. He just wasn't booked. The state has a Right/Obglation to investigate deaths. Criminal Immunity is not "given" right-a-way. Civil Immunity is, until a conviction.

YOU referred us to Section (2) of the SYGL. It has nothing to do with civil liability.

I don't think we can draw sweeping conclusions based on two cases, both involving an armed man shooting an UNarmed man and then claiming self-defense, both involving shootings outside anyone's home.

I see the probable cause for arresting both Zimmerman and Dunn. Apparently, the judge, police and DA agree.

That does NOT prove Florida LE are not following the law as written.

 

[Sonya610]

Of course he may have been emboldened by the gun in his pocket or car. (I'm not sure where the gun was at that point.)

More likely he took an open space in front of the c-store. People that have permits and/or keep guns in the glove box don't feel "emboldened" by them. They don't even think about it unless there is a sudden problem. Initially maybe they do but then it is a part of life that one doesn't think much about just like anything else.

 

[flourish]

More likely he took an open space in front of the c-store. People that have permits and/or keep guns in the glove box don't feel "emboldened" by them. They don't even think about it unless there is a sudden problem. Initially maybe they do but then it is a part of life that one doesn't think much about just like anything else.

Perhaps you personally don't feel emboldened when carrying a gun, but you can't exactly speak for all gun owners. While I assume (yeah I know let's call it hope) that many if not most gun owners are responsible, there are a lot of people with mental issues that own guns, too --paranoid people, people who are so prejudiced against various groups of people that they cannot manage being civil when encountering said groups, people with inferiority complexes, people who feel certain that entering a particular neighborhood, area, or city carries a real or imagined threat, people with explosive anger, etc. Those are the folks that are likely to feel emboldened, IMO.

 

[Sonya610]

Perhaps you personally don't feel emboldened when carrying a gun, but you can't exactly speak for all gun owners. While I assume (yeah I know let's call it hope) that many if not most gun owners are responsible, there are a lot of people with mental issues that own guns, too --paranoid people, people who are so prejudiced against various groups of people that they cannot manage being civil when encountering said groups, people with inferiority complexes, people who feel certain that entering a particular neighborhood, area, or city carries a real or imagined threat, people with explosive anger, etc. Those are the folks that are likely to feel emboldened, IMO.

Let's separate LEGAL gun owners, shall we? The murder stats regarding LEGAL gun owners?

As far as being prejudiced and such. Well let's just say I own a firearm for a reason, and it ain't for shooting squirrels or rattlesnakes. I am a realist and I pay attention to statistics. You may feel great about ignoring statistics and that is fine, but for me risks and statistics matter.

If I lived in Switzerland I probably wouldn't need to own a firearm. I don't live in Switzerland, I live in Georgia.

I obey the laws (even speed limits) and I can think what I like.

 

[flourish]

Let's separate LEGAL gun owners, shall we? The murder stats regarding LEGAL gun owners?

As far as being prejudiced and such. Well let's just say I own a firearm for a reason, and it ain't for shooting squirrels or rattlesnakes. I am a realist and I pay attention to statistics. You may feel great about ignoring statistics and that is fine, but for me risks and statistics matter.

If I lived in Switzerland I probably wouldn't need to own a firearm. I don't live in Switzerland, I live in Georgia.

So paranoid people, people who are so prejudiced against various groups of people that they cannot manage being civil when encountering said groups, people with inferiority complexes, people who feel certain that entering a particular neighborhood, area, or city carries a real or imagined threat, people with explosive anger, etc. never legally own guns?

I've never said I don't own a firearm. There are two revolvers in my house right now--a .22 and a .44. I have very little training and experience with firearms (so far), so I don't even touch them. I know where they are, I know where the bullets are (as far apart from each other as possible), but until I get more training and experience, etc., me no touchy. DH is trained and experienced, so that's why the exist in the first place. Neither of us hunt.

I'm not sure where you got your data regarding which statistics I've read and/or will read, and the weight I give them.

 

[writer7]

ANY 45yo with no criminal record over any teenagers!

Is DUI not criminal in Florida? I'm not up on where it's just DMV or where it's criminal. In any case, Dunn has a DUI from 2003. I'm reminded again of the speculation that he may have been drunk, thus impulsive. Wedding, going to buy wine, and a previous Driving Under the Influence charge? Think about it, anyway.

...A records check with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement shows Dunn has no criminal history other than a 2003 driving-under-the-influence charge in Monroe County....

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a#ixzz2EMM9muoT

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ge+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

 

[mobeydick]

Then there are always the 45 year olds who have not been caught doing anything criminal. That doesn't mean they haven't ever committed a criminal act!

I'm sure there are, I'm also sure there very rare!

 

[mobeydick]

And "teens" are known to be very impulsive and use very bad judgement. After the thing in Sanford I am not sure the police will try all that hard to find the "real truth".

Something happened and I doubt if the whole story will ever come out.

Something tells me LE got conflicting stories out of the teens. This was big news for a day or so but it has died down and LE is being tight lipped. It doesn't look good for the shooting over loud music idea.

 

[mobeydick]

YOU referred us to Section (2) of the SYGL. It has nothing to do with civil liability.

I don't think we can draw sweeping conclusions based on two cases, both involving an armed man shooting an UNarmed man and then claiming self-defense, both involving shootings outside anyone's home.

I see the probable cause for arresting both Zimmerman and Dunn. Apparently, the judge, police and DA agree.

That does NOT prove Florida LE are not following the law as written.

No, it doesn't, it has to do with arrest powers, both of these case the shooter has been arrested while claiming SYG. They have BOTH been arrested and Both have claimed self defense, READ NO 2. I do not see the PC for Zimmerman, neither did the police or County DA. There is not enough public informantion on this case to determine PC!

 

[mobeydick]

More likely he took an open space in front of the c-store. People that have permits and/or keep guns in the glove box don't feel "emboldened" by them. They don't even think about it unless there is a sudden problem. Initially maybe they do but then it is a part of life that one doesn't think much about just like anything else.

This

I kept my S&W nine in my truck so long I forgot about, took it out to shoot it one day and I had to clean it first!

 

[mobeydick]

Perhaps you personally don't feel emboldened when carrying a gun, but you can't exactly speak for all gun owners. While I assume (yeah I know let's call it hope) that many if not most gun owners are responsible, there are a lot of people with mental issues that own guns, too --paranoid people, people who are so prejudiced against various groups of people that they cannot manage being civil when encountering said groups, people with inferiority complexes, people who feel certain that entering a particular neighborhood, area, or city carries a real or imagined threat, people with explosive anger, etc. Those are the folks that are likely to feel emboldened, IMO.

This shooter clearly doesn't fit into any of that!

 

[mobeydick]

Is DUI not criminal in Florida? I'm not up on where it's just DMV or where it's criminal. In any case, Dunn has a DUI from 2003. I'm reminded again of the speculation that he may have been drunk, thus impulsive. Wedding, going to buy wine, and a previous Driving Under the Influence charge? Think about it, anyway.



http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ge+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I don't know if a first offense is criminal. Yes, I have stated drinking may have had a part in this on both sides. On his side I don't have the timeline from when he left the wedding and the time he pulled into the CS. I think it was less then 10 minutes though.

 

[Donjeta]

This shooter clearly doesn't fit into any of that!

How do you know?

 

[Donjeta]

No, it doesn't, it has to do with arrest powers, both of these case the shooter has been arrested while claiming SYG. They have BOTH been arrested and Both have claimed self defense, READ NO 2. I do not see the PC for Zimmerman, neither did the police or County DA. There is not enough public informantion on this case to determine PC!

Did Dunn actually claim SYG before he was arrested?

His attorney, Robin Lemonidis, has not said Dunn will invoke the Stand Your Ground law in his defense.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/06/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE8B503N20121206