GUILTY FL - Jordan Davis, 17, shot to death, Satellite Beach, 23 Nov 2012 #1

[Sonya610]

Excellent observation.

We don't even know if Dunn has a Conceal Carry License, much less LE training. That would be another reason why he fled TWICE after shooting 8 or 9 times into an SUV full of people in a public place.

Unless FL is as flexible with Conceal Carry as they seem to be with SYG.

Sorry but are you saying Dunn walked around with the gun hidden under his clothing before he fired?

I thought the gun was inside his vehicle.

 

[mobeydick]

The latest headlines for this mentioned case is:

13 Cleveland police officers who fired 137 rounds into car, killing 2, expected to be interviewed by investigators today (videos)



In other words, this is under investigation and no conclusion can be drawn. LE just knows that the two occupants of the car led LE on a high-speed chase, officers arrived and there was a gun battle, leaving two dead and that officers involved in the shooting allege the two deceased had weapons. However, no conclusion can be 100% guaranteed.

The only valid comparison, IMHO, is that the SHOOTER(S) allege they saw a weapon (as their defense for using 'deadly force.)

The subject of this thread, Jordan Davis and the SUV full of teenagers also had no 'evidence' of having a weapon or illegal contraband, other than the self-admitted shooter's claim. The difference is the 'reason' for the shooting is LE-high-speed chase/vs/loud music and ALLEGED weapon. (fact is, no weapon found by LE AGAIN!)

I believe with BOTH cases, no conclusion can be drawn, either for or against a weapon, until LE publishes the results of their investigation.

JMHO
fran

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/13_cleveland_police_officers_w.html
13 Cleveland police officers who fired 137 rounds into car, killing 2, expected to be interviewed by investigators today (videos)

Actually the chase began when a Police Officer said he heard a gunshot and thought it came from the vehicle with the dead man and woman. He was standing outside a police substation.

Who know what it actually was or even if it wasn't a hit put on by that or another cop! Sounds like there overkill to the extreame for some reason!

 

[tlcya]

I believe you are right Sonya, the gun was concealed in mr Dunn's glove box and not on his person.

I think the question is was it there legally? Was Dunn authorized by law to be driving around with a gun concealed in his vehicle?

 

[Sonya610]

I think the question is was it there legally? Was Dunn authorized by law to be driving around with a gun concealed in his vehicle?

Yes all legal gun owners are authorized by law to have loaded firearms in the vehicle in Florida! If he can legally own weapons (i.e. not underage or a convicted felon) he has every right to keep a loaded gun in the vehicle glovebox.

Same thing in Georgia. No permit required (unless you want to keep it under the car seat). In a console or glovebox is fine.

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/Carrying-Concealed-Firearm-Concealed-Weapon.html

 

[LolaMoon08]

Actually the chase began when a Police Officer said he heard a gunshot and thought it came from the vehicle with the dead man and woman. He was standing outside a police substation.

Who know what it actually was or even if it wasn't a hit put on by that or another cop! Sounds like there overkill to the extreame for some reason!

I agree that it appears to be overkill, but why was this couple leading police on a high speed car chase? I'm sure this is being investigated further, but like someone else said, I really see no comparison to this case. Leading the police on a high speed car chase is breaking the law. These kids were not breaking any laws and Mr. Dunn is not a police officer. These officers were brought into an intense situation when this couple took them on a high speed car chase. Mr. Dunn put himself into an intense situation and was the aggressor.

MOO

 

[flourish]

One cop thought he saw a gun, and started shooting. The rest heard gunshots and assumed there was a gun, so they started shooting too.

This sort of stuff happens all the time when there is a tense situation and guns are involved.

Again, that relates to this case how? Can we perhaps compare apples to apples, not trained professional police officers in a chase doing their jobs to a random citizen in a likely avoidable situation?
IMO

 

[mobeydick]

I agree that it appears to be overkill, but why was this couple leading police on a high speed car chase? I'm sure this is being investigated further, but like someone else said, I really see no comparison to this case. Leading the police on a high speed car chase is breaking the law. These kids were not breaking any laws and Mr. Dunn is not a police officer. These officers were brought into an intense situation when this couple took them on a high speed car chase. Mr. Dunn put himself into an intense situation and was the aggressor.

MOO

There are a few common things,
No Gun was found even though someone said they saw one.
Clips were emptied into a vehicle.

Again were you there? If you were not their how do you know the Teenagers were not breaking the law! Their word?

So driving up to a gas station is putting yourself in an intense situation, asking someone to turn down the music is putting yourself into a tense situation!

Our country is DOOMED!

 

[LolaMoon08]

There are a few common things,
No Gun was found even though someone said they saw one.
Clips were emptied into a vehicle.

Again were you there? If you were not their how do you know the Teenagers were not breaking the law! Their word?

So driving up to a gas station is putting yourself in an intense situation, asking someone to turn down the music is putting yourself into a tense situation!

Our country is DOOMED!

BBM I am not aware of any of the teens having charges brought against them for anything that happened the night of the shooting. The teens involved in this case have not spoken out about the events that night, so I cannot base my opinion on their word, now can I?

I will not comment on the rest, but I am sorry you feel our country is doomed.

 

[tlcya]

Yes all legal gun owners are authorized by law to have loaded firearms in the vehicle in Florida! If he can legally own weapons (i.e. not underage or a convicted felon) he has every right to keep a loaded gun in the vehicle glovebox.

Same thing in Georgia. No permit required (unless you want to keep it under the car seat). In a console or glovebox is fine.

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/Carrying-Concealed-Firearm-Concealed-Weapon.html

Any word yet in the media regarding whether Dunn was the registered owner of the firearm in question? TIA if anyone knows or can link to info regarding what model/type of weapon was used and whether it was registered to the shooter.

 

[LolaMoon08]

Any word yet in the media regarding whether Dunn was the registered owner of the firearm in question? TIA if anyone knows or can link to info regarding what model/type of weapon was used and whether it was registered to the shooter.

I don't even think we know if the actual gun used by Mr. Dunn has been retrieved? I assume it has been, but it has not been reported. I would also like to know what kind of gun it was and what bullets were used.

 

[Sonya610]

Any word yet in the media regarding whether Dunn was the registered owner of the firearm in question? TIA if anyone knows or can link to info regarding what model/type of weapon was used and whether it was registered to the shooter.

Dunn lived in FL? No registration is required.

Gun laws are pretty darn easy to look up online.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6893495_florida-gun-registration-laws.html

 

[tlcya]

Dunn lived in FL? No registration is required.

Gun laws are pretty darn easy to look up online.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6893495_florida-gun-registration-laws.html

Thank you, but why would I need to do that when I have such knowledgeable posters as yourself and others to educate me?

 

[rossva]

IMO, it relates in showing how if trained professional police officers can misidentify whether or not an individual had a weapon or not, it would be even easier for Joe Average Citizen to do so. In this case, Mr. Dunn believed he saw a weapon, and feared for his life as a result.

Again, that relates to this case how? Can we perhaps compare apples to apples, not trained professional police officers in a chase doing their jobs to a random citizen in a likely avoidable situation?
IMO

 

[writer7]

The only reason police are allowed to fire if they believe they see a weapon is because of the nature of their jobs. Cops do run into bad guys with guns all the time. People really are trying to kill them, very often.

It's not comparable to average citizens. I do find it interesting how often some gun enthusiasts feel like they are allowed to do exactly what cops do, though. They don't see that they have not been screened or trained or hired to be our cops!

I have guns for protection, and I would certainly protect my neighbor's life, too, but I'm well aware that I'm no cop and that life-and-death situations take a ton of training to handle. I'd only pull out my weapon if things were crystal, crystal clear.

Before that, I'd RUN And I have run from violence before, really. Things go down so fast that decision making is really hard. Most people are terrified of being wrong if they are the ones in possession of a lethal weapon. Unfortunately, some people think they can do too much too fast and call it fair. The SYG law seems to encourage that, or people's understanding of it does, anyway.

 

[flourish]

IMO, it relates in showing how if trained professional police officers can misidentify whether or not an individual had a weapon or not, it would be even easier for Joe Average Citizen to do so. In this case, Mr. Dunn believed he saw a weapon, and feared for his life as a result.

But the police in that case were already in a chase--they knew the people they were chasing were likely dangerous--and they are police officers. This guy wasn't in a chase, wasn't a police officer. Not the same at all.

Yeah, people despite their training or lack thereof can think they see guns when there are not guns. Some people see ghosts, too...I'm not willing to compare a trained police officer in a situation already identified as dangerous to Mr. Dunn, an untrained random citizen in a situation that may very well have not been dangerous until he chose to make it that way.

This argument isn't cutting it--besides, upthread there's a quote indicating that Mr. Dunn failed to mention said alleged shotgun until way after the incident. Also, he ran. Twice. Very different than police officers, who I'm certain did their due diligence and reported and wrote up the paperwork. Not an effective comparison at all.
imo

 

[flourish]

The only reason police are allowed to fire if they believe they see a weapon is because of the nature of their jobs. Cops do run into bad guys with guns all the time. People really are trying to kill them, very often.

It's not comparable to average citizens. I do find it interesting how often some gun enthusiasts feel like they are allowed to do exactly what cops do, though. They don't see that they have not been screened or trained or hired to be our cops!

I have guns for protection, and I would certainly protect my neighbor's life, too, but I'm well aware that I'm no cop and that life-and-death situations take a ton of training to handle. I'd only pull out my weapon if things were crystal, crystal clear.

Before that, I'd RUN And I have run from violence before, really. Things go down so fast that decision making is really hard. Most people are terrified of being wrong if they are the ones in possession of a lethal weapon. Unfortunately, some people think they can do too much too fast and call it fair. The SYG law seems to encourage that, or people's understanding of it does, anyway.

:goodpost:

Yes, LE and citizens are different--their training, their responsibility, their obligations, etc.

 

[songline]

The latest headlines for this mentioned case is:

13 Cleveland police officers who fired 137 rounds into car, killing 2, expected to be interviewed by investigators today (videos)



In other words, this is under investigation and no conclusion can be drawn. LE just knows that the two occupants of the car led LE on a high-speed chase, officers arrived and there was a gun battle, leaving two dead and that officers involved in the shooting allege the two deceased had weapons. However, no conclusion can be 100% guaranteed.

The only valid comparison, IMHO, is that the SHOOTER(S) allege they saw a weapon (as their defense for using 'deadly force.)

The subject of this thread, Jordan Davis and the SUV full of teenagers also had no 'evidence' of having a weapon or illegal contraband, other than the self-admitted shooter's claim. The difference is the 'reason' for the shooting is LE-high-speed chase/vs/loud music and ALLEGED weapon. (fact is, no weapon found by LE AGAIN!)

I believe with BOTH cases, no conclusion can be drawn, either for or against a weapon, until LE publishes the results of their investigation.

JMHO
fran

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/13_cleveland_police_officers_w.html
13 Cleveland police officers who fired 137 rounds into car, killing 2, expected to be interviewed by investigators today (videos)

GREAT POST :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Me think some just want to play with public opinion and post to that end.
Bringing in comparisons and IMHO creating a case.

 

[mobeydick]

But the police in that case were already in a chase--they knew the people they were chasing were likely dangerous--and they are police officers. This guy wasn't in a chase, wasn't a police officer. Not the same at all.

Yeah, people despite their training or lack thereof can think they see guns when there are not guns. Some people see ghosts, too...I'm not willing to compare a trained police officer in a situation already identified as dangerous to Mr. Dunn, an untrained random citizen in a situation that may very well have not been dangerous until he chose to make it that way.

This argument isn't cutting it--besides, upthread there's a quote indicating that Mr. Dunn failed to mention said alleged shotgun until way after the incident. Also, he ran. Twice. Very different than police officers, who I'm certain did their due diligence and reported and wrote up the paperwork. Not an effective comparison at all.
imo

You can wait for the powder flare to be sure it's a gun, I'm not going to!

 

[writer7]

You can wait for the powder flare to be sure it's a gun, I'm not going to!

But that's where context matters, too. If you went to the dentist's office and suddenly thought you saw someone with a shotgun because you have some abnormal fear of dental assistants, folks would just think you were bonkers.

Some of us aren't buying the immediate fear because these young men were Black and listening to loud music. They were just teenagers in a car at 7 in the evening, in a good spot of town, buying gas or something as people do.

The man should have just parked far away from them and left them alone if he really thought they were a possible danger. Starting a fight with someone you think is likely to be carrying a shotgun just seems incredibly strange -- or unbelievable. Keeping in mind that many people use violence when they get very angry, it's a good bet (imho) that the man was more likely very angry than honestly in fear of the guys. He pulled up beside them and started an argument!

 

[flourish]

You can wait for the powder flare to be sure it's a gun, I'm not going to!

As long as we're both prepared and willing to accept the consequences of said actions, then sure, whatever.

However, considering I can handle someone playing loud music in a public area that I'll be leaving soon, I doubt this situation would occur to me. (Going with the facts as we have them now). I also don't have a gun, so running or trying to get out of line of fire would be my best options. Mr. Dunn had those options, too, even though he did have a gun. And he'll be the one living with the consequences of that choice.

Whatever you choose to do is, of course, your own choice--I guess I'd rather try to get away or even get shot rather than risk shooting innocent people in a public place just trying to buy some gas or soda or whatever. Mr. Dunn should feel lucky only one person was killed and no bystanders.