GUILTY FL - Jordan Davis, 17, shot to death, Satellite Beach, 23 Nov 2012 #1

[flourish]

But that's where context matters, too. If you went to the dentist's office and suddenly thought you saw someone with a shotgun because you have some abnormal fear of dental assistants, folks would just think you were bonkers.

Some of us aren't buying the immediate fear because these young men were Black and listening to loud music. They were just teenagers in a car at 7 in the evening, in a good spot of town, buying gas or something as people do.

The man should have just parked far away from them and left them alone if he really thought they were a possible danger. Starting a fight with someone you think is likely to be carrying a shotgun just seems incredibly strange -- or unbelievable. Keeping in mind that many people use violence when they get very angry, it's a good bet (imho) that the man was more likely very angry than honestly in fear of the guys. He pulled up beside them and started an argument!

Ding ding ding, ITA

If I see a group I'm feeling fearful of, for whatever substantiated or unsubstantiated reason, I'd probably not park near them, or, if I didn't notice the alleged threatening people until I was already parked near them, I could always go in the store instead of sitting in my car next to them. There are lots of things I can do rather than empty an entire clip into a car, putting a bunch of people in danger.

 

[Sonya610]

Ding ding ding, ITA

If I see a group I'm feeling fearful of, for whatever substantiated or unsubstantiated reason, I'd probably not park near them (snip)...

Well this I agree on sort of. When traveling and stopping along the way I am a visitor and when stopping to buy gas or coffee or whatever I survey the locale and realize I am in a different terrain.

On home turf I would be FAR more likely to say "turn that sh__ down" but then again I currently live in a place where people don't blast sh__ or do offensive stuff.

I agree something precipitated this incident. Not saying it wasn't provoked, but something caused this to be a firestorm.

 

[flourish]

We might have already seen this article, but I found a piece of particular interest to me:

Dunn had been in Jacksonville for his son's wedding and was on his way back to his hotel with his girlfriend when he stopped at the gas station, parking next to Davis' car while his girlfriend went inside. An argument followed and Dunn fired eight or nine shots into the car, apparently not realizing that someone had been hit, Schoonover said.
Dunn, a gun collector who frequented Brevard County shooting ranges, told detectives that he felt like he was in danger, Schoonover said.

from http://www.ocala.com/article/20121127/WIRE/121129761?p=1&tc=pg

So, am I the only one finding it sorta incredible that Dunn, "a gun collector who frequented...shooting ranges" didn't "realize" he'd hit anyone. Wouldn't he at least consider that as a possibility? I mean, if he's a practiced shooter and gun collector, then he's gotta know 8-9 shots fired at a target means a big possibility that someone was shot. It's not like he was shooting the ground, or their tires, he shot "eight or nine shots "into the car."

His story just doesn't pass my "hinky" test at all.

Also, it seems to weird to me to think that a group of teenage boys, on their way back from a mall, would be "looking for trouble" or to "start something" at a gas station--this wasn't the middle of the night--there's people around, it's well-lit, and whether or not there were actually security cameras, most people (imo) would figure the gas station would have security cameras.

So, I'm to believe that it's likely that a group of teenagers, carrying a shotgun, which they presumably left in the car during the mall trip (?) then decided went to a gas station, and someone else started an altercation with them (story goes Dunn told them to turn their music down not that any of them talked to him first), and then they decide to get all gun-happy?

See, I find it more likely that a possibly intoxicated man (possibly angry, too--do we know for sure he left son's reception early and if so, why?), got irritated with teenagers (don't we all) and asked them to turn their music down, they flicked him some attitude so he decided to be the "big tough man" and pull out the gun from his collection that he leaves in his car and shoot them.

If Mr. Dunn hadn't had fled the scene, or had fled the scene but immediately went to a safe place to report it and allow the actual police to do their jobs, I might be more willing to believe his story. Had he called the police the second he found out he'd killed someone, I might be more willing to believe his story. But he didn't, and I don't.

Does the stand your ground law contain anything about a perceived threat as being "reasonable?" I mean, as someone above mentioned (writer7 I think), there are people whose fuses are so short, and whose chips weigh their shoulders down, and are likely to get all up in a fuss over things that most others would consider unreasonable to be that upset about.

 

[flourish]

Well this I agree on sort of. When traveling and stopping along the way I am a visitor and when stopping to buy gas or coffee or whatever I survey the locale and realize I am in a different terrain.

On home turf I would be FAR more likely to say "turn that sh__ down" but then again I currently live in a place where people don't blast sh__ or do offensive stuff.

I agree something precipitated this incident. Not saying it wasn't provoked, but something caused this to be a firestorm.

We agree on something (sort of)! :great:

(I think we actually also agree that black cats are awesome)

Even on my "home turf," I'm much more likely to ignore loud music/obnoxious teenage behavior. If the behavior rises to the level of unsafe, I'd let the store folks know and let them deal with the people on their property as that's their place, not mine.

It sounds to me that Mr. Dunn doesn't dispute that the altercation started by him telling them to turn their music down. Really, imo, it's none of his business. Yes, loud music hurts people's ears. I also have hearing issues and loud noises make my ears HURT, but I recognize that I'm not in charge of the world, so unless it's a neighbor being unreasonably loud at an unreasonable hour, in which case I either deal with it, call the police if I really feel necessary, or call the landlords the next day, I just go about my business and let other people go about theirs. It's never been that much of a struggle not to pull guns on people.

 

[Bee Happy]

13 Cleveland Police officers shoot 137 rounds killing a man and woman, Police said they saw a gun, NO GUN WAS FOUND! It happens!

I'm in Cleveland. No, police didn't say they saw a gun. They heard gunfire. There was no gun.

 

[Bee Happy]

I agree that it appears to be overkill, but why was this couple leading police on a high speed car chase? I'm sure this is being investigated further, but like someone else said, I really see no comparison to this case. Leading the police on a high speed car chase is breaking the law. These kids were not breaking any laws and Mr. Dunn is not a police officer. These officers were brought into an intense situation when this couple took them on a high speed car chase. Mr. Dunn put himself into an intense situation and was the aggressor.

MOO

BBM

Not enough to warrant the death penalty, IMO.
They had no idea if the woman in the car, who was shot 20+ times, was a hostage. She could have been innocent and had no choice to get out of the vehicle or not.

 

[rossva]

BBM1 Irrelevant. The point is if trained law enforcement can mistakenly see a gun, so can Joe Average Citizen.

Your point that law enforcement KNEW the people they were chasing were likely dangerous is invalid also. In that case law enforcement should have been even more accurate in their decision that there was or was not a weapon involved.


BBM2 That's the entire point.

But the police in that case were already in a chase--they knew the people they were chasing were likely dangerous--and they are police officers. This guy wasn't in a chase, wasn't a police officer. Not the same at all.

Yeah,2 people despite their training or lack thereof can think they see guns when there are not guns. Some people see ghosts, too...I'm not willing to compare a trained police officer in a situation already identified as dangerous to Mr. Dunn, an untrained random citizen in a situation that may very well have not been dangerous until he chose to make it that way.

1 This argument isn't cutting it--besides, upthread there's a quote indicating that Mr. Dunn failed to mention said alleged shotgun until way after the incident. Also, he ran. Twice. Very different than police officers, who I'm certain did their due diligence and reported and wrote up the paperwork. Not an effective comparison at all.
imo

 

[tlcya]

Well this I agree on sort of. When traveling and stopping along the way I am a visitor and when stopping to buy gas or coffee or whatever I survey the locale and realize I am in a different terrain.

On home turf I would be FAR more likely to say "turn that sh__ down" but then again I currently live in a place where people don't blast sh__ or do offensive stuff.

I agree something precipitated this incident. Not saying it wasn't provoked, but something caused this to be a firestorm.

We agree on something (sort of)! :great:

(I think we actually also agree that black cats are awesome)

Even on my "home turf," I'm much more likely to ignore loud music/obnoxious teenage behavior. If the behavior rises to the level of unsafe, I'd let the store folks know and let them deal with the people on their property as that's their place, not mine.

It sounds to me that Mr. Dunn doesn't dispute that the altercation started by him telling them to turn their music down. Really, imo, it's none of his business. Yes, loud music hurts people's ears. I also have hearing issues and loud noises make my ears HURT, but I recognize that I'm not in charge of the world, so unless it's a neighbor being unreasonably loud at an unreasonable hour, in which case I either deal with it, call the police if I really feel necessary, or call the landlords the next day, I just go about my business and let other people go about theirs. It's never been that much of a struggle not to pull guns on people.

I tend to agree, Sonya. I am much more likely to make a comment to a carload of young men about their music or their language or whatever on my own turf/neighborhood than in one I don't travel regularly.

Not that I go around confronting teens on their sometimes obnoxious behavior as a regular habit. I tend to be pretty live and let live but occassionally, in my not so great neighborhood, I will hollar at some young man to pull his drawers up FGS. I do it in a jokey way with a smile.

 

[flourish]

BBM1 Irrelevant. The point is if trained law enforcement can mistakenly see a gun, so can Joe Average Citizen.

Your point that law enforcement KNEW the people they were chasing were likely dangerous is invalid also. In that case law enforcement should have been even more accurate in their decision that there was or was not a weapon involved.


BBM2 That's the entire point.

I understand the point that is trying to be made that even trained people can think they see (or hear, as it looks to be more accurate in Cleveland) something, so of course an untrained person might think they see or hear something. I don't believe that argument changes anything in this case.

In the Cleveland case, you believe the trained professional police officers should have been more accurate in their decision. Are we to believe the untrained Mr. Dunn was appropriate accurate in his decision? Sure, LE should be held to a higher standard because they do have the training, but that's also why citizens should let LE do their job and not try to do it for them (telling them to turn music down in public on someone else's property).

 

[Donjeta]

Ding ding ding, ITA

If I see a group I'm feeling fearful of, for whatever substantiated or unsubstantiated reason, I'd probably not park near them, or, if I didn't notice the alleged threatening people until I was already parked near them, I could always go in the store instead of sitting in my car next to them. There are lots of things I can do rather than empty an entire clip into a car, putting a bunch of people in danger.

His response made the situation all the more dangerous for himself. There was a bunch of people in the car. He only killed one of them. If there really had been a shotgun one of the others, who, even if they previously had no designs against his life, would have realized that their lives were in danger and could easily have grabbed the shotgun or another weapon they happened to have and shot him for self defense.

(But I don't believe he thought he saw a shotgun at all if he didn't mention it until his lawyer told him so.)

 

[mobeydick]

But that's where context matters, too. If you went to the dentist's office and suddenly thought you saw someone with a shotgun because you have some abnormal fear of dental assistants, folks would just think you were bonkers.

Some of us aren't buying the immediate fear because these young men were Black and listening to loud music. They were just teenagers in a car at 7 in the evening, in a good spot of town, buying gas or something as people do.

The man should have just parked far away from them and left them alone if he really thought they were a possible danger. Starting a fight with someone you think is likely to be carrying a shotgun just seems incredibly strange -- or unbelievable. Keeping in mind that many people use violence when they get very angry, it's a good bet (imho) that the man was more likely very angry than honestly in fear of the guys. He pulled up beside them and started an argument!

Dang that's a strange post

First, I don't buy any immediate fear from the shooter, I think there is a reason he BECAME FEARFUL after he asked them to turn down the music.

Second, Why in the world would he/anybody think they may be carrying a shotgun before they parked near someone! In other words I don't think he thought they were armed until he seen someting reprersented as a gun!

That is one of the most outlandish things I've ever read!

 

[mobeydick]

As long as we're both prepared and willing to accept the consequences of said actions, then sure, whatever.

However, considering I can handle someone playing loud music in a public area that I'll be leaving soon, I doubt this situation would occur to me. (Going with the facts as we have them now). I also don't have a gun, so running or trying to get out of line of fire would be my best options. Mr. Dunn had those options, too, even though he did have a gun. And he'll be the one living with the consequences of that choice.

Whatever you choose to do is, of course, your own choice--I guess I'd rather try to get away or even get shot rather than risk shooting innocent people in a public place just trying to buy some gas or soda or whatever. Mr. Dunn should feel lucky only one person was killed and no bystanders.

I'm sure the shooter wishes he could redo that evening and drive to the next gas station!

 

[mobeydick]

Ding ding ding, ITA

If I see a group I'm feeling fearful of, for whatever substantiated or unsubstantiated reason, I'd probably not park near them, or, if I didn't notice the alleged threatening people until I was already parked near them, I could always go in the store instead of sitting in my car next to them. There are lots of things I can do rather than empty an entire clip into a car, putting a bunch of people in danger.

So you think he should have feared the four teenagers and avoided them? <mod snip>

 

[Donjeta]

So you think he should have feared the four teenagers and avoided them? <mod snip>

<mod snip>

But if he had they would all be alive now and Mr Dunn wouldn't be in jail.

:cow: provoking a fight is usually stupid and too often dangerous no matter what <mod snip> all the participants are.

 

[mobeydick]

We might have already seen this article, but I found a piece of particular interest to me:

from http://www.ocala.com/article/20121127/WIRE/121129761?p=1&tc=pg

So, am I the only one finding it sorta incredible that Dunn, "a gun collector who frequented...shooting ranges" didn't "realize" he'd hit anyone. Wouldn't he at least consider that as a possibility? I mean, if he's a practiced shooter and gun collector, then he's gotta know 8-9 shots fired at a target means a big possibility that someone was shot. It's not like he was shooting the ground, or their tires, he shot "eight or nine shots "into the car."

His story just doesn't pass my "hinky" test at all.

Also, it seems to weird to me to think that a group of teenage boys, on their way back from a mall, would be "looking for trouble" or to "start something" at a gas station--this wasn't the middle of the night--there's people around, it's well-lit, and whether or not there were actually security cameras, most people (imo) would figure the gas station would have security cameras.

So, I'm to believe that it's likely that a group of teenagers, carrying a shotgun, which they presumably left in the car during the mall trip (?) then decided went to a gas station, and someone else started an altercation with them (story goes Dunn told them to turn their music down not that any of them talked to him first), and then they decide to get all gun-happy?

See, I find it more likely that a possibly intoxicated man (possibly angry, too--do we know for sure he left son's reception early and if so, why?), got irritated with teenagers (don't we all) and asked them to turn their music down, they flicked him some attitude so he decided to be the "big tough man" and pull out the gun from his collection that he leaves in his car and shoot them.

If Mr. Dunn hadn't had fled the scene, or had fled the scene but immediately went to a safe place to report it and allow the actual police to do their jobs, I might be more willing to believe his story. Had he called the police the second he found out he'd killed someone, I might be more willing to believe his story. But he didn't, and I don't.

Does the stand your ground law contain anything about a perceived threat as being "reasonable?" I mean, as someone above mentioned (writer7 I think), there are people whose fuses are so short, and whose chips weigh their shoulders down, and are likely to get all up in a fuss over things that most others would consider unreasonable to be that upset about.

The whole story on all sides doesn't pass my sniff test.
I don't think it likely that the shooter stopped at that gas station looking for trouble.
I don't think it likely the Teenagers went to that gas station looking for trouble.
I do find it likely that at least one of the teenagers after being asked to trun down the noise became very aggressive with the old white man, some peoples fusses are short. People in groups will bully single people.
I think he fled in fear, no reason to stick around to see if someone wasn't and could use said shotun on him no that he has a empty gun.

You must think the shooter knew the teens and their actions before he stopoped at the gas station.

BTW: The SYG law is basicly a civil law, yes you can claim SYG but it doesn't prohibit LE form arresting someone. All it really does is if the State refuses to charge someone or fails to convict someone claiming self defense the person claiming self defense is immune for civil action against them.

 

[Donjeta]

The whole story on all sides doesn't pass my sniff test.
I don't think it likely that the shooter stopped at that gas station looking for trouble.
I don't think it likely the Teenagers went to that gas station looking for trouble.
I do find it likely that at least one of the teenagers after being asked to trun down the noise became very aggressive with the old white man, sme peoples fusses are short. People in groups will bully single people.
I think he fled in fear, no reason to stick around to see if someone wasn't and could use said shotun on him no that he has a empty gun.

I think there is some room for debate about whose fuse was short here and who was the aggressive bully, considering Mr. Dunn was not harmed in any way and one of the teenagers is dead.

JMO, even if there is a group of aggressive bullies, I am probably in more danger from them, not less, if I've killed one of them. The rest of them may become more aggressive and more likely to attack me for revenge or self defense or whatever.

 

[ellabella]

So you think he should have feared the four teenagers and avoided them? Talk about racist!

First, thats not remotely what the poster said.

But besides that? Yeah, Id rather Dunn be a racist, card carrying member of the Klan than murder children. Don't see what is so odd about that one.

 

[mobeydick]

I'm in Cleveland. No, police didn't say they saw a gun. They heard gunfire. There was no gun.

The video I watched the officer state one of the police officer said he thought he saw a gun. Regardless the 137 shots fired was because the officers thought there was a gun present. NO GUN WAS FOUND!

 

[mobeydick]

I understand the point that is trying to be made that even trained people can think they see (or hear, as it looks to be more accurate in Cleveland) something, so of course an untrained person might think they see or hear something. I don't believe that argument changes anything in this case.

In the Cleveland case, you believe the trained professional police officers should have been more accurate in their decision. Are we to believe the untrained Mr. Dunn was appropriate accurate in his decision? Sure, LE should be held to a higher standard because they do have the training, but that's also why citizens should let LE do their job and not try to do it for them (telling them to turn music down in public on someone else's property).

You may be starting to get this. You are right it changes nothing in both cases. The police did what they did for a reason, Mr. Dunn did what he did for a reason. It's clear he didn't just think to himself I think I will ruin my life this evening and shoot a teenager!

 

[mobeydick]

I didn't see the poster saying that he should have feared and avoided the teenagers because they were black.

But if he had they would all be alive now and Mr Dunn wouldn't be in jail.

:cow: provoking a fight is usually stupid and too often dangerous no matter what race all the participants are.

Asking someone to turn down the music is NOT provoking a fight!
Avoiding a group of black teenagers because you think they MAY be trouble is RACIST for any reason unless they are openly carrying weapons where they shouldn't be!