FL - Mass Shooting at Pulse Nightclub, Orlando 12 June 2016 #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #721
We're all, the whole country, trying to understand what happened at the Pulse nightclub. But I think we all have to be careful that in attempting to "understand" what happened, that we don't begin to fall victim to EXCUSING what happened, because he "may have" been a conflicted, closeted, Islamic gay man, of middle eastern descent, with a heavy parental and cultural bias against gays.

There is a vast difference between an explanation for criminal and terroristic behavior, and the mission creep of political correctness that wants to demand empathetic justification for that behavior. The killer, the terrorist, is not a sympathetic figure. He does not deserve ANY sympathy or empathy. HE is NOT the VICTIM, or even "A" victim.

He knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and why. Yes, he may indeed be deeply conflicted about where he fits in between 2 cultures, and may have conflicted loyalty, and conflicted sexuality. His own father likely initiated and nurtured the radicalism and extremism, and anger and conflict, that lead to this guy becoming a terrorist. He MURDERED 49 souls in cold blood, and tried to kill another 50+. That has to remain the focus. So what if he was gay and conflicted?? Gays don't get a pass, or an excuse, for premeditated mass murder-- even closeted, conflicted, muslim gays.The ultimate in "PC" is to begin to build empathetic discussions about this man because he was gay and muslim and conflicted, and lessen the impact of what he did. To begin to excuse it, in the guise of "understanding" why he did it. He was pure evil and criminal. We can't forget that. The time to try to "humanize" him is long past, IMO. Nothing about this killer was civilized, and his memory deserves no empathy or sympathy. IMO.

We have to be extremely careful when bandying about "mentally ill" labels. He may indeed have a narcissistic, or borderline, or sociopathic, or bi-polar personality disorder. Who cares? None of that makes him "not responsible" for what he did. AND--no amount of mental health care (before or after a heinous crime) can "fix" personality disorders-- no pills, meds, or "talk therapy" fixes those kind of people. None of that is a LEGALLY justifiable defense. He wasn't psychotic, or mentally deficient in a legal definition way. He may be depressed and hate unicorns, puppies, kittens, and rainbows, too. But he is still a KILLER, a TERRORIST, and a dead criminal, who vastly pre-planned this carnage and horror, knew exactly what he was doing, knew right from wrong, and tried to inflict the worst damage he could.

Families with little kids at Downtown Disney/ Disney Springs could have been massacred, instead of the gay nightclub. That would have been equally atrocious. Yes, gays were the population "this" time, but don't for a minute think that he wouldn't have taken out others if he could have, IMO. The nightclub patrons were soft targets, and convenient for him and his motives at this particular point in time. Yes, he hated gays, and probably loathed that part of himself-- but he hated a lot of other non-gay people, too, for being non-believer infidels, IMO. Maybe he thinks allah will give him a "disney fast pass" to heaven for killing gays during ramadan, and voicing allegiance to ISIS.

Either way, I'm very glad and thankful he's dead. And I truly believe it's ESSENTIAL that we change the way we deal with islamic terrorism at every level of law enforcement and government, so that we can do better preventing the next occurrence-- because we all know there WILL be a next time. I do think we absolutely NEED an official declaration of "war" against ISIS, and ISIS-inspired terrorism, so that we can begin to work to get a handle on what's happening inside our own country, and put a stop to it. That will change the way we do surveillance, and handle would-be terrorists. We have to do this--it is absolutely essential to the safety and security of every citizen. As it is, this ridiculous insistence that these acts are "just" a matter for law enforcement when they happen, is what is just setting the stage for more killing. We have to be pro-active to prevent terrorism, not re-active.

I could care less what was going on in this killer's psyche-- what I'm absolutely sure of is that his ACTIONS were inspired by, and motivated by, his islamic extremism, and his professed loyalty to ISIS. That needs to remain the central focus. He himself said that is why he did what he did. We need to BELIEVE him, and act accordingly. IMO.

No matter what his closeted behavior or if he had a hard life, or if he was raised in a harsh religious household, there is no excuse for mass murder. He is a terrorist in my opinion and his extremist religious views helped him to justify his actions. Period. I'm still curious about his psyche and his background though. No one should be capable of hating that much.
 
  • #722
No matter what his closeted behavior or if he had a hard life, or if he was raised in a harsh religious household, there is no excuse for mass murder. He is a terrorist in my opinion and his extremist religious views helped him to justify his actions. Period. I'm still curious about his psyche and his background though. No one should be capable of hating that much.

I think studying the psychology of why a minority of people radicalize is very interesting. Important, too.

I think there could be truth behind the reports that he was gay. There would no doubt be a lot of cognitive dissonance caused by knowing you are attracted to people of the same sex when you also believe that that is wrong. I think it could cause a lot of anger, frustration, fear.

I think this guy's history shows violence was going to be a problem for him and anyone who encountered him no matter what though.
 
  • #723
Boy Orlando has been quite a place the last three days. Voice singer, biggest murder, now children .

My husband and I were just talking about this, what a hit tourism will take for Orlando: Come to Orlando and get shot, or eaten by alligators!:scared:
 
  • #724
I've had to skip a few pages after not getting online all day - can't catch up quick enough!

Can someone confirm if we have heard how much the wife was involved in his actions leading up to the shooting. From what I understand she drove him to Pulse (was it only the one occasion she did this?). What I would like to know was if she was aware and/or involved in his exploration of gay sites/apps. I'd love to know what he kept private from her and what he discussed with her. This will be key to understanding if this online activity was 'research' or personal curiosity or a bit of both.

Re Pulse, is the owner disputing Mateen frequented her club? [I think I might have misread something on this??]

Sorry for the questions, just trying to catch up :) A big shout out to everyone that keeps posting updates!!
 
  • #725
And changes nothing as to other rights he held as a US citizen, including the freedom to choose his religion, as repugnant as it might be to some folks.

God bless the First Amendment. :)

Sure, he has the freedom to choose his religion. Being a Muslim is fine. But swearing his allegiance to ISIS, is not okay. That is treason, in my opinion.
 
  • #726
I keep reading about this and crying for hours. So senseless. Knowing one of my favourite drag queens was there was scary. And the articles about the mothers and other loved ones of the victims.

Had the killer looked for help for whatever his issues were, I'd have some sympathy. Instead, he decided to murder innocent people and destroy their lives and forever affect countless others. It may be cold, but I couldn't care less about his struggles. You have a problem, you deal with it. The moment you decide to do something like this, that's it for you.

I'm disgusted, devastated and scared.

Sorry for posting this so late, I'm sure you guys must be talking about updates about it, but I just needed to vent a little. Being part of a minority, such as the LGBT community (especially transgender, since we're the least accepted by society), is dangerous and I've been aware of it for a long time now. But wow. This was just on a whole new level and, quite frankly, I'm still in shock.
 
  • #727
I keep reading about this and crying for hours. So senseless. Knowing one of my favourite drag queens was there was scary. And the articles about the mothers and other loved ones of the victims.

Had the killer looked for help for whatever his issues were, I'd have some sympathy. Instead, he decided to murder innocent people and destroy their lives and forever affect countless others. It may be cold, but I couldn't care less about his struggles. You have a problem, you deal with it. The moment you decide to do something like this, that's it for you.

I'm disgusted, devastated and scared.

Sorry for posting this so late, I'm sure you guys must be talking about updates about it, but I just needed to vent a little. Being part of a minority, such as the LGBT community (especially transgender, since we're the least accepted by society), is dangerous and I've been aware of it for a long time now. But wow. This was just on a whole new level and, quite frankly, I'm still in shock.
:hug:
 
  • #728
Please don't think I'm being petty, however, if the shooter, in fact, had an AR-15, he did not have an "assault" rifle. The "AR" simply stands for the company that made them, ArmaLite (why they didn't use AL is quite beyond me). The AR-15 works much the same as any other firearm, such as my own pistol. You pull the trigger it fires a round. However, it is capable of firing up to 60 rounds per minute (iirc). You can get magazines that hold up to 30 rounds (I've read that people can modify those and put two together. I am not 100% sure on that.) An assault rifle is fully automatic rifle -- it is a machine gun, and it is capable of firing 1,000 rpm. An assault rifle will also have a folding stock, a very noticeable, protruding, pistol grip, and a bayonet mount. Both are nothing to play with but I did want to clear up the difference. People are drawn to the AR-15, imo, b/c it is very lightweight (5lbs +/-) and the large capacity magazines.

The shooter actually had a Sig Sauer MCX according to reports. Not sure if it is semi-automatic, automatic, an assault rifle or whatever else, but it sure does fire plenty quick.

[video]https://youtu.be/zmyluo3aT0Y?t=6m11s[/video]

I'm not exactly a pro at posting here, but if that doesn't start at around 6:10, please fast forward until you get there. It's a very long video and that is the exact spot where the demonstrator starts shooting quickly.

ETA - CARIIS beat me to it with the commercial, but this video builds off of that and really shows the gun in action.

Native Americans wish the record was accurate re deadliest shootings.

http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooting_headlines_glo.html

I've seen this story as well, and it seems to me what is implied is that the Pulse shooting is the most deadly shooting by a single civilian gunman in US history. Perhaps having to put "Pulse Shooting Most Deadly Mass Shooting Perpetrated by a Lone, Civilian Gunman in History of US" each time might possibly take up the entire screen with all the exactness included. Of course other shootings perpetrated by the military and the government hundreds of years ago against Native Americans would have been way worse because of the idea of Manifest Destiny etc, but they were not by a single gunman so it's a different situation.

Am I accusing NO, am I implying.... yes have no doubts that media broke in in a rush for a story.
I think you are 100% correct, and my money is on The Daily Fail or TMZ.

Speaking of TMZ.. nevermind, because I don't think it's allowed to link so I'll wait until it's reported on a mainstream media site.
 
  • #729
Two completely different thoughts.

Not sure if this has been posted.
http://www.abc10.com/news/local/sac...ist-pastor-praises-orlando-massacre/243211965

Secondly about the wife.

Sources tell ABC that the Feds got Noor Mateen to talk only after showing her they had video of her and her husband driving to several Orlando sites.

http://abc7chicago.com/news/wife-of-orlando-shooting-suspect-once-lived-in-chicago-suburbs/1385049/


This is getting pretty bizarre! You mean to tell me they were under surveillance!
 
  • #730
If Mateen was leading a secret life exploring his sexuality, wouldn't he risk exposure taking his wife to Pulse - there are regulars that said he was there a lot and going there with his wife would risk them telling her he frequented Pulse. That leaves two questions - did she know he was exploring his sexuality and he was open with her, or was it just part of his planning?
 
  • #731
Two completely different thoughts.

Not sure if this has been posted.
http://www.abc10.com/news/local/sac...ist-pastor-praises-orlando-massacre/243211965

Secondly about the wife.

Sources tell ABC that the Feds got Noor Mateen to talk only after showing her they had video of her and her husband driving to several Orlando sites.

http://abc7chicago.com/news/wife-of-orlando-shooting-suspect-once-lived-in-chicago-suburbs/1385049/


This is getting pretty bizarre! You mean to tell me they were under surveillance!

This is only speculation based on what I've heard various LE analysts say on TV. They could have tracked his various locations by his cell phone and pulled footage from banks, businesses, traffic cameras, etc. There's also the possibility they could have simply lied in the interrogation which is legal of course and fairly common. All MOO.

ETA: I misread. I now see they actually showed her the footage according to ABC.
 
  • #732
The "wife" is bugging me. I'm not sure she was a "wife" . I think there is way more to her.
 
  • #733
  • #734
From comments above and what I've read elsewhere, my visual picture is he went inside, started shooting, the security officer came in and returned fire to him. He ran into the bathroom where men had run to hide and he started shooting them?
There were about 30 people in the bathroom, how many got out alive?

If the above is anywhere close to accurate, I would call him a coward!! What mass murderer runs and hides?

My opinions only.

Off the top of my head, the Boston bombers did.
 
  • #735
Re Pulse, is the owner disputing Mateen frequented her club? [I think I might have misread something on this??]

Sorry for the questions, just trying to catch up :) A big shout out to everyone that keeps posting updates!!

I read that too...calling it outright lies that he was a regular.

I'll look for link. There was an older man interviewed saying that the killer was a regular, picking up guys but truly he seemed shady as all get out.
 
  • #736
The "wife" is bugging me. I'm not sure she was a "wife" . I think there is way more to her.

Heard the phase, common law earler.
 
  • #737
  • #738
Like a whole lot of what is being said on various networks, this theory is speculative, based on "sources within LE". Just on Fox, the wife was in California and the killer in Florida when they started communicating, and those close to the couple are not talking about how they got together. The speculation is that this might have been a sham marriage similar to the San Bernandino terror couple.
 
  • #739
I read that too...calling it outright lies that he was a regular.

I'll look for link. There was an older man interviewed saying that the killer was a regular, picking up guys but truly he seemed shady as all get out.

Thanks LLC. I thought I read something but I've been scrambling to read everything in last few hours and couldn't find the article again to re-read. Google is not helping me either :dunno:
 
  • #740
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
56
Guests online
2,218
Total visitors
2,274

Forum statistics

Threads
632,537
Messages
18,628,082
Members
243,188
Latest member
toofreakinvivid
Back
Top