FL - Mass Shooting at Pulse Nightclub, Orlando 12 June 2016 #3

[rsd1200]

I understand legalities with DMV, government agencies, just saying I think I would find it odd if I visited someones home and they had it on display.

I must have missed something, I thought they found his d.l. on the kitchen table.

 

[rob]

Boy his "father" is a piece of work isn't he? I hope they can nail him with something also.

I agree, if they can't charge him, ship him back to where he came from.
I really don't get, they hate us, but they all want to be here????

 

[rob]

According to staff members, numerous attempts by the school to intervene failed because of the “enabling” nature of Mateen’s father, Seddique Mateen, who was considered to be the source of his attitude towards women and girls.
SNIPPED
Katherine Zurich, 62, who taught Mateen in the fourth and fifth grade, said she tried to reach out to him but found his attitudes too deeply entrenched to penetrate.
“He felt that women were beneath him,” Ms Zurich said.
“He was taught to disrespect them. His mum, his sisters were afraid of him. They had to be subservient to him because he was the son. They treated him like the father, with respect.”
Ms Zurich said Mateen would boast about how rich his family was, yet delight in taking things from other children.
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-...l/news-story/4761f739a232ec2abfdbcf2f469f5d62

She has just described the Muslim way.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

We're all, the whole country, trying to understand what happened at the Pulse nightclub. But I think we all have to be careful that in attempting to "understand" what happened, that we don't begin to fall victim to EXCUSING what happened, because he "may have" been a conflicted, closeted, Islamic gay man, of middle eastern descent, with a heavy parental and cultural bias against gays.

There is a vast difference between an explanation for criminal and terroristic behavior, and the mission creep of political correctness that wants to demand empathetic justification for that behavior. The killer, the terrorist, is not a sympathetic figure. He does not deserve ANY sympathy or empathy. HE is NOT the VICTIM, or even "A" victim.

He knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and why. Yes, he may indeed be deeply conflicted about where he fits in between 2 cultures, and may have conflicted loyalty, and conflicted sexuality. His own father likely initiated and nurtured the radicalism and extremism, and anger and conflict, that lead to this guy becoming a terrorist. He MURDERED 49 souls in cold blood, and tried to kill another 50+. That has to remain the focus. So what if he was gay and conflicted?? Gays don't get a pass, or an excuse, for premeditated mass murder-- even closeted, conflicted, muslim gays.The ultimate in "PC" is to begin to build empathetic discussions about this man because he was gay and muslim and conflicted, and lessen the impact of what he did. To begin to excuse it, in the guise of "understanding" why he did it. He was pure evil and criminal. We can't forget that. The time to try to "humanize" him is long past, IMO. Nothing about this killer was civilized, and his memory deserves no empathy or sympathy. IMO.

We have to be extremely careful when bandying about "mentally ill" labels. He may indeed have a narcissistic, or borderline, or sociopathic, or bi-polar personality disorder. Who cares? None of that makes him "not responsible" for what he did. AND--no amount of mental health care (before or after a heinous crime) can "fix" personality disorders-- no pills, meds, or "talk therapy" fixes those kind of people. None of that is a LEGALLY justifiable defense. He wasn't psychotic, or mentally deficient in a legal definition way. He may be depressed and hate unicorns, puppies, kittens, and rainbows, too. But he is still a KILLER, a TERRORIST, and a dead criminal, who vastly pre-planned this carnage and horror, knew exactly what he was doing, knew right from wrong, and tried to inflict the worst damage he could.

Families with little kids at Downtown Disney/ Disney Springs could have been massacred, instead of the gay nightclub. That would have been equally atrocious. Yes, gays were the population "this" time, but don't for a minute think that he wouldn't have taken out others if he could have, IMO. The nightclub patrons were soft targets, and convenient for him and his motives at this particular point in time. Yes, he hated gays, and probably loathed that part of himself-- but he hated a lot of other non-gay people, too, for being non-believer infidels, IMO. Maybe he thinks allah will give him a "disney fast pass" to heaven for killing gays during ramadan, and voicing allegiance to ISIS.

Either way, I'm very glad and thankful he's dead. And I truly believe it's ESSENTIAL that we change the way we deal with islamic terrorism at every level of law enforcement and government, so that we can do better preventing the next occurrence-- because we all know there WILL be a next time. I do think we absolutely NEED an official declaration of "war" against ISIS, and ISIS-inspired terrorism, so that we can begin to work to get a handle on what's happening inside our own country, and put a stop to it. That will change the way we do surveillance, and handle would-be terrorists. We have to do this--it is absolutely essential to the safety and security of every citizen. As it is, this ridiculous insistence that these acts are "just" a matter for law enforcement when they happen, is what is just setting the stage for more killing. We have to be pro-active to prevent terrorism, not re-active.

I could care less what was going on in this killer's psyche-- what I'm absolutely sure of is that his ACTIONS were inspired by, and motivated by, his islamic extremism, and his professed loyalty to ISIS. That needs to remain the central focus. He himself said that is why he did what he did. We need to BELIEVE him, and act accordingly. IMO.

I am in awe of this well thought out post. Thank you, KZ.

Imo, he may have been gay or bi-sexual but the reason he did this is to show his allegiance to ISIS and other violent Muslim extremists. There were way too many things pointing to that long before he began hitting gay bars. He is like most Islamic terrorist who will patiently wait many years before they attack us on our soil. His sexuality may have been a side issue he struggled with but this happened because of hate for the infidels and wanting to destroy as many has he could. He knew his father would be proud that he had targeted these particular victims. imo

All mass murderers have a background history of some kind. All of his background history shows to me he was perfectly capable of pulling off a heinous crime of this magnitude. He like other mass murderers had the perfect mindset in order for this to be their end goal. I don't think he considered himself one of us. He was more in allegiance to where his parents came from.

I don't even care about his background history other than it shows me he fits the profile of someone who could easily do something this horrific. He really isn't that different than most of the rest. 1) Problems with personal relationships whether the murderer was gay or straight. 2) Has criminal history of abusing females or other violent acts. 3) A loner and misfit in society. 4) Has major anger issues. Most of these mass shooters see themselves as victims instead of victimizers.

Whatever his sexual orientation was it didn't ignite this firestorm of hate. I believe he has hated the infidels from a very early age even though he was born in this country. Imo, his father instilled these views of hatred and bigotry all during his life and he soaked it up like a sponge. I think his father should be thoroughly investigated as well. I believe none of his CYA moves. Inside I think he is very pleased with his son and what he has done. This will bring him many kudos back in Afghanistan from those who hates infidels and especially homosexual infidels

As far as his current wife, IMO, the Grand Jury is going to throw the book at her and they will hand down serious indictments, rightly so. At least this terrorist supporter is left alive to pay for supporting her evil minded husband.

This is an aside so maybe someone will be so kind to answer?

I noticed in some of the posts I was reading this morning that it is believed that between 200-300 mosques are led by extremist Imams which exist here in our country. Does anyone know how large each Mosque is and how many members that comes out to be? In other words, how many Muslims are sitting there week after week soaking up all of the hate spewed against the infidels? Also if the FBI is aware of such Mosques spewing hate then why have they not been infiltrated them to see if they too are calling for terrorist attacks? I did read in the first thread about an Imam being in Orlando just two weeks before and he was telling the members it was okay to murder homosexuals. (paraphrasing) I think any hate speech or verbal threats should have dire consequences. With free speech there should be some kind of accountability if it is promoting hate and violence to happen against others, imo.

IMO

 

[Trident]

Several years ago, when my son was in Afghanistan, there was an avalanche which buried several people. A lot of our military got busy and helped with the rescue. My son was so relieved and grateful he was able to help save some of these Afghan people. This shows me the difference in thought patterns.

 

[rob]

KZ and Ocean blue eyes, I truly enjoyed your posts. I wonder how many attacks on us, here in the US will have to happen before we can say, Yeah, they are determined to kill us. I always question if the many defenders have done any investigation or do they just believe the "Islam is a peaceful religion" story. Ask the people in Germany and Sweden, who wanted to help the muslim refugees, how do they feel about what is going on in their countries now.
All it takes is a little googling and you learn a lot. I just vacationed in Naples FL, and our hotel had many guests from all over Europe. Very nice people. I sit at the pool and had nice conversations with some of them. I would never have asked the question or brought up the subject, but after a day or two, it came up from them, and it was even worse than I had thought. They are not loving their gov'ts now, and feel like they are being left open as victims, and cannot even speak out or they are charged instead of the criminals doing the crimes.
All I say is, investigate for yourself. Do some research. Don't be a hater, but also, don't be a victim.
All MOO only

 

[Everyday Grace]

More weirdness.

Footage from a 2012 award-winning documentary, "The Big Fix," has emerged showing Orlando gunman Omar Mateen working as a security guard contracted to the security company G4S following the 2010 BP oil spill. He seems skeptical of the cleanup efforts.

Something new to me, but maybe it was already posted -- one of the phone calls he made from inside Pulse was to a television news producer.

Sunday's shooting rampage wasn't Omar Mateen's only objective during the three-hour attack. He was also on Facebook, declaring his allegiance to ISIS. He repeated his pledge in a phone call to 911 and to a television producer, according to a local cable news station.

"Then he started saying he did it for the Islamic State, he did it for ISIS and he started speaking in Arabic," said Matthew Gentili, a News 13 TV producer who received a call from Mateen.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando...s-omar-mateen-in-2010-following-bp-oil-spill/

 

[oceanblueeyes]

KZ and Ocean blue eyes, I truly enjoyed your posts. I wonder how many attacks on us, here in the US will have to happen before we can say, Yeah, they are determined to kill us. I always question if the many defenders have done any investigation or do they just believe the "Islam is a peaceful religion" story. Ask the people in Germany and Sweden, who wanted to help the muslim refugees, how do they feel about what is going on in their countries now.
All it takes is a little googling and you learn a lot. I just vacationed in Naples FL, and our hotel had many guests from all over Europe. Very nice people. I sit at the pool and had nice conversations with some of them. I would never have asked the question or brought up the subject, but after a day or two, it came up from them, and it was even worse than I had thought. They are not loving their gov'ts now, and feel like they are being left open as victims, and cannot even speak out or they are charged instead of the criminals doing the crimes.
All I say is, investigate for yourself. Do some research. Don't be a hater, but also, don't be a victim.
All MOO only

Excellent advice, Rob.

We all need to know everything we can about what is happening here and across the world. I have read about the nightmarish hell Germany/Paris and countries all across Europe and how their citizens are suffering due to opening their arms to so many refugees. We must have an iron clad a way to vet this refugees coming in to our own country. It is illogical to think all of those who have been allowed to come here don't want to harm us. If we do not get a handle on it we are going to have refugees in mass just like those who are reeking havoc in Europe now. Yet our own government admits they don't even know how many are here or where the ones are that have expired visas. Our government is not fully protecting us. They are leaving us all sitting ducks for this to keep happening over and over again right here.

I remember my loving and very wise Grandmother who lived to be 95. For a woman born in her era she was very keen on reading all the news here and around the world. Someone asked her why she read all about what was going on somewhere else that didn't even involve our country. Her answer was: 'Because whatever is happening abroad will be in our own backyards one day.' I have never forgotten her words of wisdom.

IMO

 

[barcode]

Playing devils advocate here and I do not expect to get any love, but then again I am not looking for love in all the wrong places.

The father I have seen his interviews, the same one/ones that people are finding fault with. Myself I do not see the hate, <modsnip> More security and it would not have happened according to him, he says that they should have neutralized his son or taken him out...yeah I know he used the word naturalized but he meant neutralized. Also he expressed sympathy towards the victims. As a parent I could never imagine having to do what he has done and in my mind at least better than any parent I recall of mass shooters like James Holmes, Adam Lanza or any of the others.

Yes I admit he may not be 100% sincere but he is far from the California preacher who says from the Pulpit that he feels the shooter should have finished the job.

Pastor Roger Jimenez said he wishes government would line up gays and shoot them

LGBT community plans a protest at Verity Baptist Church

Sacramento mayor condemns contents of sermon

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article83693667.html#storylink=cpy

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article83693667.html

About two days ago I looked at the fathers FB for about a minute, it is quite prolific as in 100's of photos and video so maybe there is hatred there, I do not know as I only glanced at it briefly

 

[kimlynn]

I agree, if they can't charge him, ship him back to where he came from.
I really don't get, they hate us, but they all want to be here????

I'm sure the father is under investigation for all the good that may do. Maybe while shipping this guy can go along.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sacramento-baptist-pastor-roger-jiminez-post-orlando-anti-gay-preaching/

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Really? Not even to vote? Or to write a check? I don't have to show one in my tiny little neck of the woods for a check, but I do to vote.

The only time I can remember having to show our original marriage license with the seal on it was when we first got married 32 years ago and my husband had to prove we were legally married in order to put me on his health plan with his employer.

In order to vote a drivers license or an ID of some kind is required with a photo on it.

 

[Strangeworld]

I think the term "terrorist" has gotten way overused. Its big business, billions and billions. If the exact same event happened before 9/11 mental health would be the headline here imo.


Internalized homophobia and mental issues go hand in hand.


As we have all learned the intensely radicalized martyr themselves.


If we go back in the context of the past mass shootings and take a look at the primary motivator / influences we find different patterns as it relates to causation and outcome as it relates to terrorism in the "pure" form .


We find that James Holmes who was profoundly mental ill did not kill himself.

Same for Roger Elliot, a very ill young man , did not kill himself.

The guy who did the congress woman, very very sick, did not kill himself.

The church guy did not kill himself.

Luka did not kill himself.

Planned parent guy.

All of these were very mentally ill individuals compare that to the authentic terrorist we find totally the opposite pattern - martyrdom.


Certainly there is not one "entity" in any of these.

All I am saying is this event seems to have less to do with "terror", in the traditionial sense, than the media seems to want to acknowledge.

He was a terrorist, whether he was a mentally ill terrorist, homophobic terrorist, gay terrorist, whatever. He was a terrorist. I'm not sure what a 'traditional' terrorist looks like? In this day and age, there is no traditional terrorism - ISIS and other extremist organisations will continue to keep reinventing ways to bring fear to their enemies, so it's best to not look for traditions, and instead do exactly what we are all doing and try to understand motivations and signs to hopefully increase our chances of stopping the next attack.

IMO of course.

 

[Everyday Grace]

Omar Mateen drove around the Orlando area the night before the nightclub massacre, visiting several places, the mayor said Wednesday as investigators tried to piece together the killer’s movements and zeroed in on how much his wife may have known about the plot.

*SNIP*

The FBI has recovered Mateen’s phone and will use location data to verify whether he previously visited the club, the official said. Orlando is nearly a two-hour drive from Mateen’s home in Fort Pierce, Florida.

*SNIP*

Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer said Mateen drove around on Saturday night before he opened fire at the gay nightclub about 2 a.m. Sunday in an attack that ended with the 29-year-old American-born Muslim being killed by a police SWAT team.

More at the link:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...gunman-wife/sozEZm3hxeDGPiqnxfoo1O/story.html

I'm thinking today's press conference may involve the release of some specifics (confirmation and clarification) regarding Mateen's movements prior to the beginning of the shooting at Pulse.

 

[kimlynn]

Interestiing

Drew Griffin imo good. Interview with the father. We all have this image that dad is some "polical figure" over there.

On two occasions Drew stated

re father "He, at least in his own mind" feels as if he a political figure over there. THen Drew got it in as he posts some videos on line.

Basicaaly, makes me really wonder if dad is far less "big shot" over there.. ANyone can post some You Tube videos - it would be neat to see his webiste, be funny if he had 324 views on a post from 2014!!!

I think the son got it honest. Both had a vision of being more important than they actually were/are.

 

[CARIIS]

If he had been driving around an hour and half from home for several days, where did he stay? 3.5 hours daily drive is quite a hassle.

Where did he stay when he was doing gay days?

The manner in which the media has portrayed the wife, if she knew a when where why and how she would have been arrested IMO, several days ago. In other events they have hauled in entire famiies right after .

I think the media misconstrued her stating that she had concerns he might do "something".

If I yelled at you, while in an agitated state, going to do "something" that is drastically different than the medias protrayal that she knew he was going to go the bar Pulse, on Saturday night, with a semi assualt weapnon and a pistol and kill everyone in the room, that is radicaaly different story.

IMO it is clear that the driving to Pulse together, might have been in early June when doing gay days.

 

[Magdalyn]

I understand legalities with DMV, government agencies, just saying I think I would find it odd if I visited someone's home and they had it on display.

Did I read somewhere their certificate was on display? If so, I think it may have been her Muslim marriage certificate from their Muslim ceremony. Which is not a marriage license any more than a Catholic marriage certificate is a marriage license. We had to apply for and receive our license before our ceremony for it to be 'legal'.

We have one of our wedding invitations matted, framed, and hung in our foyer. Perhaps a Muslim marriage certificate is sometimes displayed this way? :dunno:

 

[popsicle]

WFTV Eyewitness News &#8207;@WFTV 18m18 minutes ago
Latest on the #PulseShooting from @VEcholsWFTV: Investigators are now trying to reconstruct the crime scene #WFTV

 

[2Hope4]

I just watched a video, and accidentally closed the page, but it was saying Marteen pretended to be a victim when the police came in. He laid in the floor with the real victims!

 

[Magdalyn]

The only time I can remember having to show our original marriage license with the seal on it was when we first got married 32 years ago and my husband had to prove we were legally married in order to put me on his health plan with his employer.

In order to vote a drivers license or an ID of some kind is required with a photo on it.

I've had to pony mine up to change my name on my driver's license, when my husband's insurance provider occasionally asks to see it, and when our state changed our ID laws and I had to bring in just about everything short of a DNA sample. (Birth certificate, social security cards--pre-marriage and post marriage, 2 pieces of mail with your name and current address, old DL, marriage license).

 

[2Hope4]

Has it been said why he legally did a name change?