FL - Mass Shooting at Pulse Nightclub, Orlando 12 June 2016 #4

[CARIIS]

Would you explain why you steadfastly reject the idea that this was at least in part Muslim terrorism? I don't mean site facts, I mean why?

Do you think it would detract from the gay victims? Or the seriousness of hate crimes against gays? Or do you think it is important that this NOT be labeled as foreign inspired terrorism? There are a whole lot of people that have very good reasons for labeling this "homegrown, lone wolf" domestic terrorism and that is well recognized.

Why do you feel so strongly that this must strictly be labeled as a gay hate crime and other motives MUST be rejected?

Hi!

I think I am not expressing myself well. I think it domestic terror for sure. Just not all this ISIS over there teachings. I am coming from a very strong bipolar place, that some say is an "excuse". There is not a hunt for an excuse on my end. There is a hunt for some notions about why. Mental is not an excuse. It is a physical illiness just like diabetes, thats changes thoughts, behaviors and how views the world around them.

As more and more of his psycosoical came out it fleshed out the "why" part - very mentally ill. Does that matter to the families probalby not - but for everyone looking for causation it is vital.

Then after learning the intensity of that reliogons notions about homosexually, that certainly plugged into a "why" Pulse question. What better way to end ones life while peasing daddy. Then in connecting what better to make one feel (in his mind) he is not gay, go kill a lot of gay people. It worked - it is happening here - if he were gay why would he kill a bunch of homosexuals? In his mind, I will put that humilating , casue of religion, notion to bed.

Then when all the conduct disorder stuff in early years, that helps give an answer to why. That kind of behavior is a budding anti social personality disorder, another answer to why, that is so far removed from ISIS. Then it comes out that he was placed in an acadmic environ for the severly mental ill as a child, and that he had invovment with psychiatrists at that time - takes me back to mental illiness as far as causation in answering why did he do this.

Bipolar and drinking heavily are super corrleated.

Then is is revealed that in his social world people are not negativily responding to him becasue all he talks about is religon. His wife said he had a belief system surrounding it , but that he was not obessive about it. Again that takes me away from this huge ISIS link. People pushed back from him becasue of his behaviors - thats mental illiness, not ISIS rantings for years.

Then we find out he has been almost delusionial at times in regards to all his statements about his ISIS ties, that , for me negated the ISIS cell phone calls. Then it comes out that in the last 3 calls he referenced his "casueation and motivations as being ISIS related, but could not keep it together enough (giving less credence to the 911 ISIS stuff) and explained he was doing this for three completly different ISIS organizations, which have totally different religious notions, who they hate etc. Eroded the ISIS angle even more.

Then when the Disney visit came out it super magnified the internilized homophobia - helps answer the "why" as well. COmbine that with a serious mood disorder and you have a very disturbed depressed young man.

Then the getting affairs in order is so common in suicide. He did not have the guts to do it - let LE kill me. Again away from ISIS stuff.

Then we see video of his apt - totally western with Star Wars - no korans all over the place? That has not been the case in the other attacks.

Then the only thing they find worth reporting (and to this day) on his electronics is gay sex stuff, nothing ISIS ey.

The it comes out , that what she said to him was NOT do not attack Pulse, it was do not do anything violent, which is totally congruent with an indicvdaul who is bipolar becoming increasingly violent in action and thoughts- there is a difference, do not attack PUlse is more ISIS eee than asking a mentally ill person with a history of violence and intense impulse control issues - takes why back to mental illiness -not ISIS as an answer to why he did what he did.

Then it comes out he was bullied, and that the jumping up and down on 911 (giving an ISIS notion) was not true either. He was being teased about being a muslum by peers - he acted out- has nothing to do with being a big ISIS fan.

Then I learn that the portrayal of dad is total BS. He is this big terrorist related political entity. He ran to be a president of a country that is not having an election. That sounds more "mental" to me. Mental is genetic.His poliical stuff is he makes some posts on his FB page, spewing hate. People do that all the time. That is not IMO this big terrorist ISIS leader deal. We were also given the notion that his video posts were like this great terrorist using the internet to rile people up to become a raging terrorist. The dude paid money for airtime, its not like he was this big followed terrorist leader.

Then the first wife does another interview and tells us that the FBI asked her not to tell the AMerican media her notions about his sexual orientation. That takes me back to his real issues are related to that, very closeted,which results in some pretty intense suicidal, self hate stuff. Again another explaination of the why being so far away from ISIS.

Then the big story he went over there two times and the media is playing that like that has this huge terrorist tie thing, but have been totally unable to link either visit even remotly related to terrorism.

Then they say he was going to some terrorist training school. The school is an online entity, they looked to see if he had ever been on the site and he had not. Again a myth about all this ISIS terrorist nonsense the media has , errounously been claiming since the beginning.

And the the medical "friend" who they do not even reveal who area of medicine he is invovled in --talks to him and their discussion is about mediacations and that there are other alternatives. What could that be referring to , from a friend other than suicide?

Then we find out they texted during the event, giving this big San Bern "feel" to it . Husband and wife like ISIS feel, when the reality is she asked him where he was and then tells him she loves him. That correlates with her realization that he is probably going to get killed.

It has not been like from the day one I did not think this was a ISIS terrorist attack - it is in reality there has been so much ISIS terrorist put out there, and all have been proven not to be true.


So, in looking for a why, and the ISIS stuff keeps getting rebuffed, the answer to why moves elsewhere

With the whole picture I cant help but conclude that this was a severally mental individual, with sucidal wishes,who despises gay men becasue they seem to be doing what he cant (accept self) and the picture fits. At the finale , after cowering for hours, he comes openly out guns blazing - if that is not a want to be killed by cops I am not sure was could be! That is no imo martydom, that is suicide, which tends to correlate with mental, not the sucidal ISIS ee terrorist stuff



Its hideous whatever the why is-but there continues to be this avalanche of information that directly contradicts the image that his been errounoulsy put out there - and it keeps building up to a totally different "reason" than this radicalized terrorist.

Even after finding out one of the marriages was arranged media continue to play the we dont really think he was gay? COnflicted gay men do that all the time

May I ask the same question, what valid information have we gotten that indicates this horrible ISIS terrible?

moo

Thank you for asking!!

 

[atthelake]

:goodpost:

 

[Jen Darme]

Geez...had another thought that the media probably won't want to mention.

How many of the survivors will have to get tested for HIV over the next few months?

If someone was shot in a crowd with a round of .223 the bullet could have passed through another victim before hitting them. Plus a lot of these folks were trying to help victims or huddled in corners with copious amounts of blood.

It's no secret that exposure to blood-borne pathogens via blood, bodily fluids, tissue, or biological foreign bodies, eg, bone fragments, is a concern for first-responders/rescuers and victims of natural and man-made disasters as well as those who investigate and otherwise work at the scene later.

CDC: Recommendations for Postexposure Interventions to Prevent Infection with Hepatitis B Virus, Hepatitis C Virus, or Human Immunodeficiency Virus, and Tetanus in Persons Wounded During Bombings and Other Mass-Casualty Events

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think getting his affairs in order shows he was suicidal. His mission was to carryout an Islamic terrorist attack and he knew the police would come so he planned for that ahead of time.

He knew when he went in to do the terrorist attack that police would eventually gain entry and he would most likely be shot and killed especially if he did not give up but fired back at the officers when confronted.

What it does show is extreme premeditation and planning on his part to carryout this terrorist attack. That shows me he wasn't some mentally ill guy but one who was capable of clear cognitive thinking to plan ahead.

IMO

 

[tangelo]

I wonder if the Muslim man who is the head of the trauma center there in Orlando is terrified for his family and himself now?

I wonder if everytime he or his family leaves the house he thinks some person who has been stirred into a frenzy over Muslims will attack him or his family?

or he or a family member could stumble across the wrong website & become self radicalized & murder a bunch of people for allah (US govt says this could happen)

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I don't think getting his affairs in order shows he was suicidal. His mission was to carryout an Islamic terrorist attack and he knew the police would come so he planned for that ahead of time.

He knew when he went in to do the terrorist attack that police would eventually gain entry and he would most likely be shot and killed especially if he did not give up but fired back at the officers when confronted.

What it does show is extreme premeditation and planning on his part to carryout this terrorist attack. That shows me he wasn't some mentally ill guy but one who was capable of clear cognitive thinking to plan ahead.

IMO

The fact that he tried to buy a vest tells me he intended to hold out as long as he could, killing as many people including LE as possible. JMO

 

[Sonya610]

May I ask the same question, what valid information have we gotten that indicates this horrible ISIS terrible?

moo

Thank you for asking!!

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

The reason most of us believe it was radical Islamic terrorism is because

a) he did everything he possibly could to make sure everyone knew it was Islamic Terrorism related to ISIS (yet people are still in denial)

b) he was investigated by the FBI twice

c) he carried on a lengthy communication with an Al Queda operative

d) he enrolled in courses lead by a known Islamic radical with ties to international terrorism and international terrorist training

e) he made two trips to Saudi Arabia (neither were for Hajj). On one trip he was put up in four star hotels. He makes very little as a security guard so WHO paid for a first class trip to a very expensive country like Saudi Arabia? And why??? Terrorist training seems like an obvious reason, they hop on over to Yemin for training after arriving in S.A. Plus Muslims are expected to go to Hajj once in their lifetime, yet this guy makes two trips neither of which was for Hajj? He isn't rich so why???

f) the first official WH statement made it clear they were going to pursue a domestic agenda, not a foreign one! The investigation was just starting yet they had already made that determination. They want to target American Citizens as a whole and ignore any foreign policy changes. In order to pursue that agenda they MUST have this labeled as domestic terrorism with no ties to foreign allegiances.

Orlando gunman Omar Mateen’s two trips to Saudi Arabia, one of which was a pricey package that included four-star accommodations and fancy meals, were highly unusual and may have been cover for terror training, according to experts.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/15/mateens-twin-trips-to-saudi-arabia-raise-suspicions.html

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I don't think that Isis cares much if the people they indoctrinate into being terrorists have a mental illness. All they care about is if the person can kill and create terror.

Isis is probably happy that some feel that this wasn't an Islamic terror attack but simply a mental heath problem. It may make it possible that no meaningful changes will be made to prevent further attacks.

JMO

 

[atthelake]

I don't think getting his affairs in order shows he was suicidal. His mission was to carryout an Islamic terrorist attack and he knew the police would come so he planned for that ahead of time.

He knew when he went in to do the terrorist attack that police would eventually gain entry and he would most likely be shot and killed especially if he did not give up but fired back at the officers when confronted.

What it does show is extreme premeditation and planning on his part to carryout this terrorist attack. That shows me he wasn't some mentally ill guy but one who was capable of clear cognitive thinking to plan ahead.

IMO

Are you familiar with the rusty sneiderman case in Atlanta where Hemy Neuman killed him in Disguise outside of the sun daycare center in Dunwoody Georgia?

Guilty of very much methodical and cognitive planning, but convicted of guilty but mentally ill.

He had Angel speaking to him, movie star speaking to him excetera. ( many folks here may remember his "love" was Andrea sneiderman.)

The two ( planning and mentally ill) aren't mutually exclusive :moo:

 

[popsicle]

From link Everyday Grace posted last night.

Also Friday, a senior law enforcement official said investigators have so far not found a gay dating app on Mateen's cell phone.

Some men in Orlando have said that they received messages from Mateen through various dating apps, but some of those have turned out to be cases of mistaken identity, investigators say.

However, officials still take seriously the claims by others who say they saw Mateen in the Pulse nightclub in the weeks — and even months — before the shooting.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...ateen-twice-took-law-enforcement-test-n594751

 

[Sonya610]

However, officials still take seriously the claims by others who say they saw Mateen in the Pulse nightclub in the weeks — and even months — before the shooting.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...ateen-twice-took-law-enforcement-test-n594751

In addition the reasons for visiting the club ahead of time are not limited to either a) visiting because he was gay or b) casing the joint.

Third reason could easily be because he wanted to go there and ENVISION what he was going to do. Fantasize about the massacre etc... Sort of like a rapist that watches their victims for a period of time before the crime.

They like knowing they will have the power of life or death over the victims. He knew when he finally committed the act he was a goner so reveling in it and imagining it ahead of time makes some sense (especially if he planned to do this during Ramadan).

I would also suspect that if he received training that may be recommended. A lone gunman is different than a group, being familiar with the dim lighting, loud music etc... would make one more effective (and he was very very effective, amazingly so, not like a lunatic unprepared gunman but like someone who thought this through very carefully and performed in a relaxed manner with a very high level of skill.).

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

From link Everyday Grace posted last night.

Also Friday, a senior law enforcement official said investigators have so far not found a gay dating app on Mateen's cell phone.

Some men in Orlando have said that they received messages from Mateen through various dating apps, but some of those have turned out to be cases of mistaken identity, investigators say.

However, officials still take seriously the claims by others who say they saw Mateen in the Pulse nightclub in the weeks — and even months — before the shooting.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...ateen-twice-took-law-enforcement-test-n594751

Thank you! I've spent the last hour trying to find where I read this!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[Tillicum]

I don't think getting his affairs in order shows he was suicidal. His mission was to carryout an Islamic terrorist attack and he knew the police would come so he planned for that ahead of time.

He knew when he went in to do the terrorist attack that police would eventually gain entry and he would most likely be shot and killed especially if he did not give up but fired back at the officers when confronted.

What it does show is extreme premeditation and planning on his part to carryout this terrorist attack. That shows me he wasn't some mentally ill guy but one who was capable of clear cognitive thinking to plan ahead.

IMO

I also think his attempt at purchasing a bullet proof vest kind of conflicts with the suicide theory JMO.
Sorry, see this was already mentioned.

 

[popsicle]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/

Investigators are "highly confident" the gunman was self-radicalized through the internet, Comey said.

According to one official, analysis of Mateen's electronic devices showed searches for jihadist propaganda, including videos of ISIS beheading videos and of Anwar al-Awlaki -- an influential American-born imam who worked as a spokesman for al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and was killed in 2011.

"He consumed a hell of a lot of jihadist propaganda" online, the source said.

^ That

 

[CARIIS]

I also think his attempt at purchasing a bullet proof vest kind of conflicts with the suicide theory JMO.

That is a good notion.

 

[CARIIS]

Yelp website

I do not know why this surprised me :
[h=3]Active Cleanup Alert[/h][h=3]Pulse Orlando - Temp. CLOSED - 21 Photos & 70 Reviews - Dance ...[/h]www.yelp.com › Nightlife › Dance Clubs

Yelp




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http://www.yelp.com/biz/pulse-orlando-closed-orlando


[/FONT]

 

[Sonya610]

I also think his attempt at purchasing a bullet proof vest kind of conflicts with the suicide theory JMO.
Sorry, see this was already mentioned.

If he expected to survive it he wouldn't have posted it all over facebook or called a dozen people.

He also would have negotiated with the police and turned himself in, they spent a whole lot of time trying to negotiate with him and it went no where. There was simply no way he was going to escape and avoid being blamed for the crime, he had heavily publicized the fact he did it!

The vest was likely to prevent getting taken out before he accomplished his mission.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

The reason most of us believe it was radical Islamic terrorism is because

a) he did everything he possibly could to make sure everyone knew it was Islamic Terrorism related to ISIS (yet people are still in denial)

b) he was investigated by the FBI twice

c) he carried on a lengthy communication with an Al Queda operative

d) he enrolled in courses lead by a known Islamic radical with ties to international terrorism and international terrorist training

e) he made two trips to Saudi Arabia (neither were for Hajj). On one trip he was put up in four star hotels. He makes very little as a security guard so WHO paid for a first class trip to a very expensive country like Saudi Arabia? And why??? Terrorist training seems like an obvious reason, they hop on over to Yemin for training after arriving in S.A. Plus Muslims are expected to go to Hajj once in their lifetime, yet this guy makes two trips neither of which was for Hajj? He isn't rich so why???

e) the first official WH statement made it clear they were going to pursue a domestic agenda, not a foreign one! The investigation was just starting yet they had already made that determination. They want to target American Citizens as a whole and ignore any foreign policy changes. In order to pursue that agenda they MUST have this labeled as domestic terrorism with no ties to foreign allegiances.

Adding to your list...

f) ISIS claimed responsibility

g) regarding his orientation, FBI has not found gay apps on his phone (see article cited above) and think a lot of those reports are cases of mistaken identity. First wife lived with him for only 4 months almost a decade ago, comment about his being gay was iirc in her third interview, imo she is not credible. No actual dates or sex partners have come forward for their 15 minutes.

f) watched ISIS videos and propaganda on his computer.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Are you familiar with the rusty sneiderman case in Atlanta where Hemy Neuman killed him in Disguise outside of the sun daycare center in Dunwoody Georgia?

Guilty of very much methodical and cognitive planning, but convicted of guilty but mentally ill.

He had Angel speaking to him, movie star speaking to him excetera. ( many folks here may remember his "love" was Andrea sneiderman.)

The two ( planning and mentally ill) aren't mutually exclusive :moo:

I do remember that case but I haven't seen anything stating Mateen was delusional and hearing voices.

 

[Everyday Grace]

Federal officials said Mateen traveled to Saudi Arabia in 2011 and the United Arab Emirates in 2012. The Saudi foreign ministry said Mateen was in Saudi Arabia during both trips, to perform a Muslim pilgrimage called Umrah. But U.S. authorities say they want to know more about those trips.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...orlando-nightclub-shooter-omar-mateen-n591021

An Islamic center in New York determined Thursday that Orlando shooter Omar Mateen was among a group of roughly 80 people who traveled to Saudi Arabia in 2012 as part of an annual pilgrimage facilitated by the organization.

Mateen and three others believed to be his family members joined a tour group that was organized by the Islamic Center at New York University, university spokesman John Beckman said.

Around five million people from around the world visit Saudi Arabia every year for Umrah. Commonly known as the lesser pilgrimage, it can be performed at any time. By comparison the hajj, the major Muslim pilgrimage, is mandatory once in every Muslim’s life and takes place at a specific time each year.

More:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/orlando...ia-on-trip-organized-by-nyu-center-1466122172