FL FL - Peggy Houser, 18, Tampa, 14 June 1981

[zinc]

I'm bumping this up after seeing Carl mention it again in the Identified forum as an example of a case that appears to be a slam dunk match but ends in a rule-out. Carl, those dentals are startling.

 

[Cubby]

Do we know if a DNA comparison was ever done? especially with we know about false rule outs by dentals?

 

[CarlK90245]

Do we know if a DNA comparison was ever done? especially with we know about false rule outs by dentals?

The UID's NamUs page indicates that the UID is in FBI NMPDD (i.e., CODIS)

FWIW, according to Peggy Sue Houser's NamUs page, there is no DNA profile available.

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/1307/0

DoeNet makes no mention of a DNA profile available either.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/592dffl.html

Neither of these sources are 100% reliable though.

 

[Donjeta]

Current Doe links:
Teresa Alfonso http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2dffl.html
it says her DNA is in CODIS.

The UID:
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/424uffl.html
It says her DNA is in CODIS as well, so it would rule Teresa Alfonso out as a match, wouldn't it?

Peggy Houser:
https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/1307/0/
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/592dffl.html

Her DNA is not available.

Who understands the dentals?
UID:

Dentals: Available. #'s 1, 16, 17, 32 - impacted. retained primary (deciduous) second molars K&T. #'s 8-9- Diastema. #2- pulp stone.

Peggy Houser:

Dentals: Available. She has a gap between her front teeth. She is missing her upper 4, 5, 12 and 13 teeth and her lower 20 and 29 teeth. These 6 teeth never erupted.

 

[believe09]

This is how I am reading this Donjeta:
Dentals: Available. #'s 1, 16, 17, 32 - impacted. retained primary (deciduous) second molars K&T. #'s 8-9- Diastema. #2- pulp stone.

BBM-these are molars. (here is a reference link: http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/abyss/dep1151_1.htm )

Number two-secondary molar that has a hard bone like structure within the tooth where the pulp would be.

Numbers 8 and 9= Gap

ETA: The way I am reading the deciduous comment is that she never lost her secondary molars to make way for her adult ones. I think it is close enough to the UID's to warrant an email or call to LE...see how they could be saying the same thing?

 

[believe09]

On to Peggy:
Dentals: Available. She has a gap between her front teeth. She is missing her upper 4, 5, 12 and 13 teeth and her lower 20 and 29 teeth. These 6 teeth never erupted.

Her premolars never erupted.

Now, there are medex's and forensic odontologists who use the word impacted to indicate teeth that never erupted.

 

[CarlK90245]

Current Doe links:
Teresa Alfonso http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2dffl.html
it says her DNA is in CODIS.

The UID:
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/424uffl.html
It says her DNA is in CODIS as well, so it would rule Teresa Alfonso out as a match, wouldn't it?

Yes, if it was Teresa Alfonso you would probably get a CODIS hit.

Who understands the dentals?
UID:

Dentals: Available. #'s 1, 16, 17, 32 - impacted. retained primary (deciduous) second molars K&T. #'s 8-9- Diastema. #2- pulp stone.

Peggy Houser:

Dentals: Available. She has a gap between her front teeth. She is missing her upper 4, 5, 12 and 13 teeth and her lower 20 and 29 teeth. These 6 teeth never erupted.

If you compare the description of Peggy's dentals provided in DoeNetwork, they are indeed inconsistent to the UID's dental chart in NamUs. The UID's NamUs chart says that the UID is missing 5, 6, and 13 antemortem. These would be her upper-right canine and the adjacent first bicuspid; and an upper-left second bicuspid. From Peggy's DoeNet description, it says that she is missing her upper 4, 5, 12 and 13 teeth and her lower 20 and 29 teeth. So if you assume that the UID's chart and Peggy's dental description are correct, this would be a rule-out because although they are both missing #5 and #13, the 4, 12, 20, and 29 are described as missing for PSH, but present for the UID.

However, I can see several problems with the charting of the UID's teeth, and the dental comments below the chart.

In the comments, it says that the UID has "retained primary (deciduous) second molars K&T". Deciduous teeth are known commonly as "baby teeth". Normally, a child has 10 baby teeth on the lower jaw, indexed K through T (left to right). So if the UID still had the K&T teeth, she never lost her the rear-most baby teeth on both sides of the lower-jaw. However, when you look at the chart, the teeth in the positions where K&T would be, it is notated "N" for natural tooth. It seems to me that it should be marked "O" for "Other Features (described in dental comments)".

It also says that 1, 16, 17, and 32 (i.e., the four wisdom teeth) are impacted, meaning that they grew horizontally into the adjacent molars. These teeth are notated on the chart with an "N", when they should have been marked "I".

Finally, it says that #2 consists of pulp stone. This is a calcified mass of core-material from a partially deteriorated tooth. Tooth #2 is also notated on the chart with a "N".

I am suspicious of the accuracy of the charts (1) due to the charting errors mentioned above, and (2) because Peggy retained her baby teeth well into her teens. Are the missing 4, 12, 20, and 29 actually baby teeth that recently fallen out and were replaced by permanent teeth after she last visited a dentist?

If the rule-out was based on just a chart comparison and not an actual evaluation of her dental x-rays by a Forensic Odontologist, I would suspect the validity of the rule-out.

 

[Reannan]

Carlk..... I really think this case needs a deeper look. What do we need to do in order to get someone to look at it?? k

 

[believe09]

Usually, they will resurect the dental charts and see if they need to be compared by a forensic odontologist-but for example in the Grateful Dead/Jason Reynolds comparison he was ruled out based upon his dentals, yet there was enough of a question that the VA medex has moved on to a FRS DNA comparison between Jason and Grateful Dead....once we found a legitimate source for the FRS, or she found us. Jason Reynolds was adopted when he was 3 by the Reynolds family.

 

[carbuff]

There are degrees of "impacted" teeth. My son's dentist always described his unerupted wisdom teeth as "impacted" even though they were only slightly out of alignment.

 

[CarlK90245]

Get a load of this!!!!

According to NamUs this decedent has been identified as Peggy Sue Houser !!!!

https://identifyus.org/cases/216

She was finally ID'd by nucDNA and mtDNA after they had already ruled her out on dentals !!!

I see that Peggy Sue Houser is listed in NamUs as a rule-out for this UID - But how in the "H" can this not be a match? There must be a mistake!!!

Peggy Sue Houser's Charley Page: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/houser_peggy.html
DoeNet Case 424UFFL: http://doenetwork.org/cases/424uffl.html
NamUs Case 216: https://identifyus.org/cases/216

* Both PSH and the UID are from TAMPA.
* The UID's skeletal remains were found on January 3, 1982, (i.e., 5 1/2 months or 203 days after PSH's Date of Last Contact)
* Both PSH and the UID have identical gaps, between 7 and 8 AND between 8 and 9. IN ADDITION TO A LARGER GAP behind 7.
* Four of PSH's upper teeth, and two lower teeth never erupted. The UID has retained her primary deciduous (i.e., baby teeth) in place of her second molars (i.e., 2, 15, 18, and 31), and the two upper wisdom teeth (i.e., 1 and 16) were impacted (as were her lower wisdom teeth). The only difference here is the distinction between impacted and unerupted.
* PSH's height (5'4" to 5'5") matches spot-on to the UID.
* PSH's age (18) is within range for the UID (14 - 20)
* PSH's B&W photo overlays very cleanly to the straight-on view of the reconstruction. (except that the UID Recon's teeth aren't clenched, so the chin aligns a little lower than PSH's chin)

Somebody had to have ruled these two cases out in error.

WHAT GIVES???!!! :waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

 

[Angie4b1g]

Good grief. Well, at least they finally got their heads our of their southern regions and gave this girl her name back. Pity it took this long.

Looks like she made it home from Ohio, just not quite all the way.

 

[CarlK90245]

Why is it that these things always happen in Florida? (e.g., Colleen Orsborn, and 27 years to declare Otis Toole as the perp in the Adam Walsh kidnapping/murder when it was obvious at the time)

 

[KLCD620]

Congrats, Carl! You did it again with the match! I don't really know how you able to find the match between photos of missing persons & UID. There are too many to list from NAMUS, Doenetwork, etc. You're the most successful of all sleuths!

Edit: No offense to others that have good track record of ID's.

 

[CarlK90245]

Congrats, Carl! You did it again with the match! I don't really know how you able to find the match between photos of missing persons & UID. There are too many to list from NAMUS, Doenetwork, etc. You're the most successful of all sleuths!

I wouldn't say that. Snufamonbobball, Chaddylex, and a few others have pretty good track records.

And AFAIK, this ID did not happen as a result of anything I did. Athough I was pounding my fist on the table that there must be an error, I never called it in because I know how difficult it is to get Florida authorities to do anything on a possible match. I was sure that they would have blown it off, given that they have insisted until now that this was not a match. It appears that this was finally solved by CODIS.

 

[dogperson]

Wow! A lot of other cases have been ruled out by dentals. Makes you wonder how many rule-outs are incorrect.

 

[believe09]

RIP Peggy Sue. I am so glad you finally have your name back.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

I have looked at Peggy Sue's case so many times. You know how some just stick with you? I freaked out when I saw her name on this thread next to "Identified." I'm so happy that she will finally be able to be laid to rest properly with her own name.

 

[UncoolNegated]

Wow! A lot of other cases have been ruled out by dentals. Makes you wonder how many rule-outs are incorrect.

Yes. There need to be higher standards to rule out possible matches based on dentals in my opinion.

Also can someone tell me what the story behind the UID was? Where was she found?

 

[CarlK90245]

Yes. There need to be higher standards to rule out possible matches based on dentals in my opinion.

Also can someone tell me what the story behind the UID was? Where was she found?

Peggy was last seen on June 14, 1981 at the B-52 Bar near the McDill Airforce base in Tampa. She was found in a field north of 4811 W. Sligh Avenue in Tampa on January 3, 1982 (i.e., less than 7 months later). There is not much info on cause of death.

There was a lot of discussion of her possibly going to Ohio on the back of a motorcycle with an unnamed male. But if she did, she must have returned to Tampa without contacting anyone that she knew.