FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

  • #341
Florida's castle doctrine only extends to a person's front door. The law wants for her to remain in her home. The bikers' argument hints on Florida's stand your ground law, which requires them to have been in a place they were legally allowed to be. If Sara ordered them off her property then they were not legally allowed to be there.

All this stuff becomes confusing because we live in a time when everybody thinks they have all the rights all the time.

Ideally the law wants for there to be a door between you and the threat, which crazily enough is also the most logical, tactical way to handle it as well. If someone is trying to break into your house then not only is the law clear but it is also simply much easier for you to shoot them than it is for them to shoot you.

However, in this case if I were a prosecutor (or a judge or a jury member) the clear implication is that Sara went out on her porch with her gun to order these dudes off her property and I would need to be convinced otherwise. Maybe they were familiar with the law though, went as far as the street and she continued to argue and brandish the weapon.

Maybe that's why it's taking so long. Forensic investigators may be painstakingly trying to conclusively establish exactly where the shot was fired from.
Florida stand your ground does not require you are inside your home and there is no duty to retreat but you lose immunity if you are in a place you are not legally allowed to be.
George Zimmerman was not in his home and was immune because he felt threatened.
That case also included an attempt at citizen’s arrest and detaining for LE of someone he suspected of a crime.
 
  • #342
I think this is only true in stand your ground states. In my state, she could have pulled her gun and told them to get off her property, but she still had a duty to retreat. She could not have just shot someone for trespassing. If they had pulled their gun, then she could have shot. IMO, the stand your ground law can be troubling.
Here’s another crazy example of stand your ground immunity and road rage in Florida.
Stand your ground is nothing more than a license to kill.

Stand Your Ground law: Fatal road rage shooting in Florida justified under law, SAO says

ETA:

Collier County asks family to move memorial of deceased loved one
 
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  • #343
Here’s another crazy example of stand your ground immunity and road rage in Florida.
Stand your ground is nothing more than a license to kill.

Stand Your Ground law: Fatal road rage shooting in Florida justified under law, SAO says

ETA:

Collier County asks family to move memorial of deceased loved one

I would love to know if the folks complaining about the memorial are at all concerned about a young man shot dead over road rage? I think I already know the answer. :(
 
  • #344
In my state, she could have pulled her gun and told them to get off her property, but she still had a duty to retreat.

Please double check that- then check it again. I have no idea what State you live in, nor its laws.

That aside, many States have fine print that includes "ifs", "ands" and / or "buts" as to when it is legal to point weapons at trespassers. A certain number of You Tube self defense gurus gloss over the fine print.

In general (key word), pointing weapons at trespassers is just not legally a good idea. Though your State could be an exception, it might not be.
 
  • #345
That's incorrect. As per Sara's 911 call, she exited her car rather than the house. Sara never made it inside the house. Sara couldn't remain in the car with the doors locked because her mother was outside and panicking, plus her daughter was alone in the house. Also, it's reasonable to assume that at least one of the male stalkers would have gotten inside the house or car.

Not so sure if Castle Doctrine is necessary here. It's common sense that three men stalking a woman driving alone presents a serious threat to the woman's safety. Plus as per Sara's 911 call, she had already told them on the road to back off.

I would post Sara's 911 call but it was removed by moderators because it originated on YouTube rather than MSM.

By the way, the male stalkers made two 911 calls. In the first, it illustrates that the men already had Sara's license plate number BEFORE they started following her, as per the first call. In the second, it suggests premeditation because the male witness knew EXACTLY what to tell the 911 Dispatcher, just one or two seconds after Sara was shot multiple times. Also, Derr did not immediately drop his gun. This resulted in an active shooter situation, and therefore there was a delay in transporting Sara to medical facilities. Listen carefully to the second 911 call: Derr does not drop his weapon.

I can re-post the men's 911 calls if you want, since they were published on MSM.

Again, not so sure if Castle Doctrine is necessary, since it's common sense and more than reasonable that any woman driving alone and stalked by three men is in imminent danger.

Again, Sara never made it to her house.

No way would I remember a license plate number after reading it out to a 911 operator with all of the commotion going on.

If the caller saw her draw her gun, he would know it was self defense. It doesn't take but a couple of seconds to figure that out.

As was stated in the call, the guys were talking to a neighbor before all of this happened. It seems like she must have corroborated what they said, which is why there was no arrest.
 
  • #346
No way would I remember a license plate number after reading it out to a 911 operator with all of the commotion going on.

If the caller saw her draw her gun, he would know it was self defense. It doesn't take but a couple of seconds to figure that out.

As was stated in the call, the guys were talking to a neighbor before all of this happened. It seems like she must have corroborated what they said, which is why there was no arrest.
Cell phone cams have caused a lot of arrests and also gotten people off from charges, there’s nothing like video evidence.
 
  • #347
Can you please cite the legality of following a driver who has left the scene of an accident? This is just a quick Google search leading to a lawyer site, but it says:

“Leaving the scene of an accident is a serious offense. Drivers who do so face harsh penalties. If you are involved in an accident and the driver leaves the scene, you should not follow them. You should neither leave the scene, as this will lower your chances of getting justice. Take notes of the incident, record a police statement, and contact your insurance provider.”

What to Do if the Driver Leaves the Scene? - LamberGoodnow
It's not recommended but it is not illegal.
 
  • #348
  • #349
  • #350
Morales "yapped" at him. Certainly that was reason enough to shoot her.....5 freaking times? Really?! Another motorcyclist advised Derr was traveling at a high rate of speed when she changed into his lane.

1).They never should have chased her.

2). He had no business being on or near her property.

3) Doesn't sound like anyone is willing to say she pointed the gun at him.

IMO, he is guilty of murder. And the others who were in on the chase are accessories to the murder.
 
  • #351
2). He had no business being on or near her property.

Way too broad. She left the scene of an accident, so he followed her.

That aside, a man in Georgia was also determined to have "no business" in a particular neighborhood. Regulators then brandished one weapon and pointed another weapon at him. One of the regulators then used the pointed weapon.

At the end of the day and barring a court order, public property (streets) are well, public Members of the public do not need a declared "business" to be on public property. They can be riding a unicycle, bicycle, motorcycle- or jogging.

Likewise, a regulator's gender, occupation, age, and real or perceived community reputation does not matter. What does matter is that she pointed a weapon at another person. Thus, there was the assumption that she was going to use it.

Sorry for the shrill tone of the post.....

A young family member of mine was "advised" in the past that he had "no business" fishing on certain public land and thus being around certain properties (wealthy area). I still have a bad taste in my mouth about it.
 
  • #352
This is certainly a different picture of them was painted initially. Is there any relationship between the motorcyclist, the other cyclist and the person following in the truck? i’m just very surprised that other random people decided to join this man and following the driver back to her home…

edited to add… Something about this story just doesn’t seem right. I mean the motorcyclist, completely innocent! pulled up next to her just to merely be like “wtf!” And then she tried to hit him with her car! And then he tried to be helpful by following her home, with his concealed gun, with other people, just because he was scared to death.

Sorry not buying it.
 
  • #353
Morales "yapped" at him. Certainly that was reason enough to shoot her.....5 freaking times? Really?! Another motorcyclist advised Derr was traveling at a high rate of speed when she changed into his lane.

1).They never should have chased her.

2). He had no business being on or near her property.

3) Doesn't sound like anyone is willing to say she pointed the gun at him.

IMO, he is guilty of murder. And the others who were in on the chase are accessories to the murder.
You didn't read the article? She tried to kill him. Gives them even more reason to follow her then we knew before.
 
  • #354
You didn't read the article? She tried to kill him. Gives them even more reason to follow her then we knew before.
Wrong.They should call the police and not be vigilantes.
 
  • #355
Way too broad. She left the scene of an accident, so he followed her.

That aside, a man in Georgia was also determined to have "no business" in a particular neighborhood. Regulators then brandished one weapon and pointed another weapon at him. One of the regulators then used the pointed weapon.

At the end of the day and barring a court order, public property (streets) are well, public Members of the public do not need a declared "business" to be on public property. They can be riding a unicycle, bicycle, motorcycle- or jogging.

Likewise, a regulator's gender, occupation, age, and real or perceived community reputation does not matter. What does matter is that she pointed a weapon at another person. Thus, there was the assumption that she was going to use it.

Sorry for the shrill tone of the post.....

A young family member of mine was "advised" in the past that he had "no business" fishing on certain public land and thus being around certain properties (wealthy area). I still have a bad taste in my mouth about it.
The only one who says she pointed a gun at him was Derr. (The one who shot her 5 times.) The other witnesses said she was waving the gun around. Read the new article above.
 
  • #356
Way too broad. She left the scene of an accident, so he followed her.

That aside, a man in Georgia was also determined to have "no business" in a particular neighborhood. Regulators then brandished one weapon and pointed another weapon at him. One of the regulators then used the pointed weapon.

I think you've got it backwards. It's Morales who would be the analogous "victim" in the GA case. They were pursuing her, not the other way around.

At the end of the day and barring a court order, public property (streets) are well, public Members of the public do not need a declared "business" to be on public property. They can be riding a unicycle, bicycle, motorcycle- or jogging.

Likewise, a regulator's gender, occupation, age, and real or perceived community reputation does not matter. What does matter is that she pointed a weapon at another person. Thus, there was the assumption that she was going to use it

According only to him she pointed the gun. In my opinion, his word is of little relevance considering her followed her home. Yes it's public property, but he left a highly charged incident on the roadway and followed her home. That was both stupid and triggering to her.

If I had that kind of encounter with someone and they followed me home, I might very well bring out my gun too. I wouldn't shoot them or point it at them, but I'd want my gun for my own protection.
 
  • #357
The only one who says she pointed a gun at him was Derr. (The one who shot her 5 times.) The other witnesses said she was waving the gun around. Read the new article above.
You really think that there is a big difference between waving a gun around and pointing it. Doubt the police or courts think so.
 
  • #358
You really think that there is a big difference between waving a gun around and pointing it. Doubt the police or courts think so.

There absolutely is a difference. 100%. If someone follows me home and I grab my gun, in what universe can THEY claim self defense just because I have a gun in my hand? If I point it at someone, then they may be able to say they felt their life was in danger and they acted impulsively in self defense.
 
  • #359
The way I see this is...SM may have unknowingly moved to his lane, but according to others he was traveling at a high rate of speed. He then rides beside her "yapping" at her. She probably was frightened as she may have felt she was being menaced. I think I would have felt that way. (I hope her doors were locked because I would have been afraid he was going to pull me out of the car.) No way would I stop, get out of my car and talk rationally to this loon. In trying to get away, she scuffs his saddlebag with her car. And then the chase is on.

I would have been terrified! Where else would she go but to her home where she felt safe. But home wasn't safe because Derr and others on motorcycles followed her there. She may have been "yapping" at them but I can only imagine what they were saying (screaming) at her.

He feels threatened? <modsnip>

So, he pulls his gun and shoots her 5 times. I'm sure one of those shots ripped through her pregnant belly and killed the unborn child inside.

Murder plain and simple. But not just one, but 2 murders.

I hope they let him pack his precious saddlebags so he can at least have some "comfort" in jail.
 
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  • #360
I do not think he should have shot her multiple times.
However, it seems like she was behaving aggressively and possibly out of anger or recklessly. I do not believe all of her described actions were from fear alone. Swerving her vehicle at him, could have caused his death.
They both should have backed off and waited for police.
I believe they both made unwise choices that culminated in a tragic death.
It sounds like the other two witnesses did not have a relationship with either Derr or Morales.
*My opinions
 

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