FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[GatorFL]

That video is right in line with my visualization of this incident from the beginning. I think the biker was going dangerously fast to begin with and she pulled into "his" lane without seeing him which pissed him off and he escalated and escalated and escalated it again. You can see ample videos of this kind of thing in YouTube posted by the bikers themselves. They strap GoPros on their helmets and record what they believe to be roads full of "cagers" out to kill them and their heroic videos of mostly punching people's side mirrors off but there's no shortage of videos with swarms of bikers beating on car windows with their helmets trying to drag drivers out of their cars on the street.

I think that in this case this particular biker was much more aware of the letter of the law than Sara and consciously engineered a situation in which he could legally kill her - but she was very foolish to go to the edge of her property brandishing a firearm like that. It would have been a lot better for her mom to have had a video camera than an unloaded gun. Sara would still be dead but we would know if she was objectively threatening the guy's life.

Let's face it, Sara was the aggressor. If she were in such fear of the bikers, no way would she have walked the 75-100' to the edge of her yard to confront them with her gun. The evidence shows this. Derr is not going to be charged, ever.

 

[Cryptic]

If she were in such fear of the bikers, no way would she have walked the 75-100' to the edge of her yard to confront them with her gun. The evidence shows this. Derr is not going to be charged, ever.

I agree, this evidence is not good for Sara at all.

I still strongly suspect that if Derr participated in a "one up" contest with Sara earlier, he is going to get charged.

As a side note, Derr states to 911 that he and two others "Chased her down". This does not exactly imply a calm and purposeful following of Morales by Derr.

My bet is that Derr's "chasing her down" combined with any evidence of a "one up" contest is going to lead to charges- just not murder.

 

[Razz]

Which is why I am interested in all of the 911 calls. What was the dispatcher telling her? Obviously not the right stuff. And why couldn't they get a police officer or deputy to her location before this really went south?

What I'd like to hear are D's calls to LE. I vaguely remember the dispatcher asking if anyone was hurt, and someone replied no. I can't help but think the dispatcher would have told these boys not to follow SM, and to let police handle it. But they, bikers and truck driver weren't about to be deterred.

I'd like to see a grand jury convened and have everyone testifiy under oath.

 

[Ozoner]

That video is right in line with my visualization of this incident from the beginning. I think the biker was going dangerously fast to begin with and she pulled into "his" lane without seeing him which pissed him off and he escalated and escalated and escalated it again. You can see ample videos of this kind of thing in YouTube posted by the bikers themselves. They strap GoPros on their helmets and record what they believe to be roads full of "cagers" out to kill them and their heroic videos of mostly punching people's side mirrors off but there's no shortage of videos with swarms of bikers beating on car windows with their helmets trying to drag drivers out of their cars on the street.

I think that in this case this particular biker was much more aware of the letter of the law than Sara and consciously engineered a situation in which he could legally kill her - but she was very foolish to go to the edge of her property brandishing a firearm like that. It would have been a lot better for her mom to have had a video camera than an unloaded gun. Sara would still be dead but we would know if she was objectively threatening the guy's life.

The information that you shared convinces me that I need to get a gun in order to protect myself from bikers. And I would rather be in prison than dead, so if a biker ever acts in a threatening way towards me, I will not be taking any chances.

 

[evilwise]

The information that you shared convinces me that I need to get a gun in order to protect myself from bikers. And I would rather be in prison than dead, so if a biker ever acts in a threatening way towards me, I will not be taking any chances.

The majority of motorcyclists are normal people of course and I really do not want to encourage violence, I want to make that perfectly clear. I just think it's important to know the law and know yourself. As the law in many states stands and iirc Florida as well if someone reaches into your car and tries to assault you you can shoot them. In my state this was a "castle doctrine" thing that extended into cars before we went full "stand your ground" but in this particular case Sara would have probably fared no better of the gun had been in her car. She would have similarly brandished it and the outcome would have probably been the same.

Car Castle Doctrine type laws basically say what should have happened was once she knew there'd been an accident (the car kicking is unmistakable) she should have pulled over and called the police. Since she felt threatened she should have stayed in her car where she had assurance of safety and a right to defend. Of course what she did do was not entirely wrong, returning to her home where she had the same assurance of safety. I dunno about bringing your kids into it so it might have been some mama bearism even beyond feeling invincible once she had a gun. It's hard to say but when you have a gun in your hand is the absolute worst possible time to be irrational

 

[evilwise]

Let's face it, Sara was the aggressor. If she were in such fear of the bikers, no way would she have walked the 75-100' to the edge of her yard to confront them with her gun. The evidence shows this. Derr is not going to be charged, ever.

Sadly for Sara and her family I think that yes legally in the deadly force portion of this crime Sara was at fault. I'm sure they were "menacing" her or whatever the Florida definition is, possibly some form of stalking. I would like to see them all charged to the first extent of the law on all that sort of thing and I hope her family pursues significant civil action based on that, too.

It can't just be perfectly okay to do what they did. That can't be the message the DA wants to send.

 

[GatorFL]

I agree, this evidence is not good for Sara at all.

I still strongly suspect that if Derr participated in a "one up" contest with Sara earlier, he is going to get charged.

As a side note, Derr states to 911 that he and two others "Chased her down". This does not exactly imply a calm and purposeful following of Morales by Derr.

My bet is that Derr's "chasing her down" combined with any evidence of a "one up" contest is going to lead to charges- just not murder.

We need those 911 calls.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Which is why I've said I do expect charges for him. For this, but not for her death.

ETA: Aggressive is sort of a judgment call, don't you think? Who wouldn't be aggressive if someone hit you?

I don't think aggressive is a judgment call. When someone pulls up beside you, yelling at you that's aggressive, no matter what happened before that.

 

[Ozoner]

The PD are crazy if they don't charge Derr. This is the biggest victim-blaming crap I've seen in a long time. He didn't have to follow her. He didn't have to shoot her. At the very least, he didn't have to fire 8 times. That guy belongs in prison.

I wonder how many other victims he has in his background. We don't know much about Derr. <modsnip>

 

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[BrownRice]

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[Auntie Cipation]

Even if we assume that her going out into her yard with a gun gave Derr the legal option to shoot in self defense, I think the key will be what laws were applicable before/as she did that. Namely:

Once she had entered her home, did the Stand Your Ground law protect her right to go back outside with her weapon?

In other words, does the SYG cover her yard too or just if someone breaches her home?

And does someone standing outside the protected zone (ie in the street) but presenting a perceived threat (with or without a visible weapon) fall within that law?

 

[Razz]

I'd like to see not only the 911 calls themselves but the phone records of who called who and when. IMO, dispatch had a duty to call these guys off once they knew what was happening.

Also, I wonder if dispatch advised SM in any way. Ex: Do what you have to to protect your family or... stay inside the house until police get there. Something to that effect.

 

[Razz]

The majority of motorcyclists are normal people of course and I really do not want to encourage violence, I want to make that perfectly clear. I just think it's important to know the law and know yourself. As the law in many states stands and iirc Florida as well if someone reaches into your car and tries to assault you you can shoot them. In my state this was a "castle doctrine" thing that extended into cars before we went full "stand your ground" but in this particular case Sara would have probably fared no better of the gun had been in her car. She would have similarly brandished it and the outcome would have probably been the same.

Car Castle Doctrine type laws basically say what should have happened was once she knew there'd been an accident (the car kicking is unmistakable) she should have pulled over and called the police. Since she felt threatened she should have stayed in her car where she had assurance of safety and a right to defend. Of course what she did do was not entirely wrong, returning to her home where she had the same assurance of safety. I dunno about bringing your kids into it so it might have been some mama bearism even beyond feeling invincible once she had a gun. It's hard to say but when you have a gun in your hand is the absolute worst possible time to be irrational

But are you ever rational in the heat of battle? Are you ever rational drawing down on someone and shooting 5 times?

Does pulling your weapon indicate that you are rational even if you "fear" your life is in danger?

Not trying to be argumentative, just thoughtful.

 

[evilwise]

But are you ever rational in the heat of battle? Are you ever rational drawing down on someone and shooting 5 times?

Does pulling your weapon indicate that you are rational even if you "fear" your life is in danger?

Not trying to be argumentative, just thoughtful.

If you want to stay alive and free, yes.

 

[evilwise]

Even if we assume that her going out into her yard with a gun gave Derr the legal option to shoot in self defense, I think the key will be what laws were applicable before/as she did that. Namely:

Once she had entered her home, did the Stand Your Ground law protect her right to go back outside with her weapon?

In other words, does the SYG cover her yard too or just if someone breaches her home?

And does someone standing outside the protected zone (ie in the street) but presenting a perceived threat (with or without a visible weapon) fall within that law?

When you approach someone you are literally no longer standing your ground, no. What you do have in many states including Florida is a right to use force to remove someone from your property if they refuse to leave it. These bikers knew that and that's why they stayed on public property - and furthermore the stand your ground law where their rights are concerned says that they do not have a duty to retreat from anywhere they are legally allowed to be - which is actually probably the specific letter of the law they had in mind but it of course won't contradict the property protection laws. In fact they may have even been on her property but dutifully retreated exactly until they set foot on public property then turned around and shot her.

I really really wish we had video of the actual incident because it would be useful in establishing precedent but all we have is a he said/she said where the primary "she" is dead and the other she doesn't really seem familiar with the law. Somebody needs to go to bat for this lady and her family.

 

[GatorFL]

When you approach someone you are literally no longer standing your ground, no. What you do have in many states including Florida is a right to use force to remove someone from your property if they refuse to leave it. These bikers knew that and that's why they stayed on public property - and furthermore the stand your ground law where their rights are concerned says that they do not have a duty to retreat from anywhere they are legally allowed to be - which is actually probably the specific letter of the law they had in mind but it of course won't contradict the property protection laws. In fact they may have even been on her property but dutifully retreated exactly until they set foot on public property then turned around and shot her.

I really really wish we had video of the actual incident because it would be useful in establishing precedent but all we have is a he said/she said where the primary "she" is dead and the other she doesn't really seem familiar with the law. Somebody needs to go to bat for this lady and her family.

Here is the statute: Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

IMO it all boils down to this part of the law:

(b) Deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

I also agree with you that she was outside the boundaries of statute when she charged the men and ran approximately 100' from her house to the edge of the road with a gun. While I think she had some legal problems before that happened, everything changed in that instant and she lost her life as a result.

I don't think anybody can go to bat for her. If they could, Derr would be in jail.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

When you approach someone you are literally no longer standing your ground, no. What you do have in many states including Florida is a right to use force to remove someone from your property if they refuse to leave it. These bikers knew that and that's why they stayed on public property - and furthermore the stand your ground law where their rights are concerned says that they do not have a duty to retreat from anywhere they are legally allowed to be - which is actually probably the specific letter of the law they had in mind but it of course won't contradict the property protection laws. In fact they may have even been on her property but dutifully retreated exactly until they set foot on public property then turned around and shot her.

I really really wish we had video of the actual incident because it would be useful in establishing precedent but all we have is a he said/she said where the primary "she" is dead and the other she doesn't really seem familiar with the law. Somebody needs to go to bat for this lady and her family.

Mom needs an attorney to pursue civil action at the very least and maybe through that, the attorney can fight for Sara on a criminal level.

 

[GatorFL]

Mom needs an attorney to pursue civil action at the very least and maybe through that, the attorney can fight for Sara on a criminal level.

I don't think that is the way that criminal law works. I agree the mother can file a civil lawsuit, but prosecutors work off the facts of the case, not the outcome of a civil trial.

In my readings for this case I did see that there is no blanket protection for civil liability in a FL Stand Your Ground case.

 

[katydid23]

Mom needs an attorney to pursue civil action at the very least and maybe through that, the attorney can fight for Sara on a criminal level.

I'm not sure they would win anything in a civil trial. If they have the witnesses that can credibly testify that she purposely veered into his motorcycle, hitting it as he was riding on the highway, then she escalated things herself.

And the same thing with her going outside, armed, and going to the edge of her property. Up until then she was safe and sound inside and they were on the street. She had no good reason to escalate things by going outside face to face, waving a gun around, IMO.

I don't think a civil trial would help that much.