FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[darring21]

It wasn't self defense because she didn't use it. She brandished it, Derr shot her as a result. 100% a crime on her part.

Just because she didn't use it in self defense, doesn't mean it wasn't necessary. She can have a gun out on her property for purposes of self-defense. Absolutely not a crime.

Otherwise, you are arguing that it is only legal to pull a gun on someone if you use it. If you pull a gun on someone and don't use it, it is illegal. That is not correct.

 

[happyday]

Trespassing is a crime, and he was trespassing on her property. She told him to leave, and he killed her.

I don’t think the “crime” of leaving the scene of barely a fender bender with zero injuries as you call police and tell them your name, location and exactly what you’re doing because you are afraid of the guy who is yelling at you and chasing you would hold up in court.

 

[darring21]

You didn't look at the right statute. Proper one would be leaving the scene of an accident: Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

Trespassing is a crime, and he was trespassing on her property. She told him to leave, and he killed her.

I don’t think the “crime” of leaving the scene of barely a fender bender with zero injuries as you call police and tell them your name, location and exactly what you’re doing because you are afraid of the guy who is yelling at you and chasing you would hold up in court.

I don't think we know exactly where he was and it might be a very important part from a legal standpoint. Was he in the street or was he on her property? I believe if he is on her property, he loses the right of self-defense because he is committing a separate crime. That may be arguable, though.

 

[happyday]

I don't think we know exactly where he was and it might be a very important part from a legal standpoint. Was he in the street or was he on her property?

It is important, and I don’t think we know for sure. I read in one article that her road was even actually a private road, but I don’t know that for sure either.

Orange City Police Department

Linking the Orange City police fb page as there are many discussions in comments about these kinds of things. You have to scroll down to the post about this case.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

It wasn't self defense because she didn't use it. She brandished it, Derr shot her as a result. 100% a crime on her part.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying because it's in direct contradiction to the links that you posted. Are you suggesting that had she shot him, it would be self defense but because she didn't shoot him, it was illegal for her to even show it?

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

You didn't look at the right statute. Proper one would be leaving the scene of an accident: Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

Considering the damage to his vehicle was microscopic and he didn't fall or get hurt in any way, she may not have even known that there was contact.

We've really fallen pretty low as a country when we villianize a woman driving alone for failing to stop after a man harassed her on the roadway.

 

[GatorFL]

Just because she didn't use it in self defense, doesn't mean it wasn't necessary. She can have a gun out on her property for purposes of self-defense. Absolutely not a crime.

Otherwise, you are arguing that it is only legal to pull a gun on someone if you use it. If you pull a gun on someone and don't use it, it is illegal. That is not correct.

I am a FL resident and have a FL CCL license. I've been through the CCL training and our instructor was clear: if you pull a gun and don't use it you're guilty of brandishing it. I've purchased and read Jon Gutmacher's book, he's the state's foremost authority on FL gun laws. The law is actually pretty clear. A woman got 20 years in FL about 10 years ago for firing a warning shot against her abusive ex husband: Fla. mom gets 20 years for firing warning shots

 

[GatorFL]

Considering the damage to his vehicle was microscopic and he didn't fall or get hurt in any way, she may not have even known that there was contact.

We've really fallen pretty low as a country when we villianize a woman driving alone for failing to stop after a man harassed her on the roadway.

I've said it a few times, I think they BOTH were at fault. This was a series of events that spiraled out of control and someone died because of it. It's a sad situation.

I am only commenting on this thread because I grew up in the area where it happened, I have a little knowledge of the law because of my training, and mostly I am interested in the outcome of this case. If it were as clear cut as people think, Derr would be in jail right now. He's not, and that says a lot to me, IMO. I don't think he will walk though. I do expect him to be charged, perhaps for the harassment while driving and/or following her home. But I don't expect charges for shooting her. JMO.

 

[darring21]

I am a FL resident and have a FL CCL license. I've been through the CCL training and our instructor was clear: if you pull a gun and don't use it you're guilty of brandishing it. I've purchased and read Jon Gutmacher's book, he's the state's foremost authority on FL gun laws. The law is actually pretty clear. A woman got 20 years in FL about 10 years ago for firing a warning shot against her abusive ex husband: Fla. mom gets 20 years for firing warning shots

Unless you do it for purposes of self-defense. She was clearly doing that. In the linked article, the women went outside to her car and came back in and fired over his head so the judge could not apply stand your ground. She would have been guilty of murder if she had shot him because stand your ground doesn't apply. That doesn't apply here. If she had fired and missed, would she have been guilty of brandishing? It is a ridiculous argument.

 

[Razz]

I am a FL resident and have a FL CCL license. I've been through the CCL training and our instructor was clear: if you pull a gun and don't use it you're guilty of brandishing it. I've purchased and read Jon Gutmacher's book, he's the state's foremost authority on FL gun laws. The law is actually pretty clear. A woman got 20 years in FL about 10 years ago for firing a warning shot against her abusive ex husband: Fla. mom gets 20 years for firing warning shots

 

[wary]

I am a FL resident and have a FL CCL license. I've been through the CCL training and our instructor was clear: if you pull a gun and don't use it you're guilty of brandishing it. I've purchased and read Jon Gutmacher's book, he's the state's foremost authority on FL gun laws. The law is actually pretty clear. A woman got 20 years in FL about 10 years ago for firing a warning shot against her abusive ex husband: Fla. mom gets 20 years for firing warning shots

I understand the general principle about brandishing, but what if, as you pull your gun, the person turns and runs? Are you really committing a crime for not shooting them in the back? And what if, instead of firing a warning shot, you’re simply a bad shot, and miss?

 

[Catmommy]

Brandishing a weapon is a fool's game in every sense of the word. Guns give many people a sense of power. You don't pull a gun unless you are prepared to use it. You don't use a gun unless you are prepared to kill somebody. That is the whole nature of having a handgun. It is a huge responsibility. This is my opinion as someone who once banned guns from my house but now conceal carry always.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I am a FL resident and have a FL CCL license. I've been through the CCL training and our instructor was clear: if you pull a gun and don't use it you're guilty of brandishing it. I've purchased and read Jon Gutmacher's book, he's the state's foremost authority on FL gun laws. The law is actually pretty clear. A woman got 20 years in FL about 10 years ago for firing a warning shot against her abusive ex husband: Fla. mom gets 20 years for firing warning shots

Bad case to use as a comparison because she was given a new trial and got out after time served (3 yrs) and one article says that FL changed its law but I can't confirm that. The other difference is that this was a he said/she said domestic dispute and the charge against her stemmed from the fact that she shot the gun at the wall behind her husband as opposed to the ceiling. In the Morales case, he chased her home. He was aggressive with her during the incident. He kicked her car. None of that is disputed by witnesses. AND Morales was on the phone with 911 when she told them to leave her alone and that she was frightened. She never fired her weapon whereas the woman in your not only fired her gun, but she fired it at the wall behind her husband which opened her up to the argument that she was trying to strike him. It's an entirely different case. Morales essentially proved she was feeling threatened, unlike the woman in your link.

 

[Ozoner]

Trespassing is a crime, and he was trespassing on her property. She told him to leave, and he killed her.

I don’t think the “crime” of leaving the scene of barely a fender bender with zero injuries as you call police and tell them your name, location and exactly what you’re doing because you are afraid of the guy who is yelling at you and chasing you would hold up in court.

Bingo!

 

[Razz]

I've said it a few times, I think they BOTH were at fault. This was a series of events that spiraled out of control and someone died because of it. It's a sad situation.

I am only commenting on this thread because I grew up in the area where it happened, I have a little knowledge of the law because of my training, and mostly I am interested in the outcome of this case. If it were as clear cut as people think, Derr would be in jail right now. He's not, and that says a lot to me, IMO. I don't think he will walk though. I do expect him to be charged, perhaps for the harassment while driving and/or following her home. But I don't expect charges for shooting her. JMO.

Well then, law enforcement people are horrible examples. They're pulling their guns all the time giving people the opportunity to back off. Now, if you pull the trigger, you should be shooting to kill.

 

[GatorFL]

Bingo!

I'm not so sure he trespassed. Did you see the body cam video?

 

[GatorFL]

Well then, law enforcement people are horrible examples. They're pulling their guns all the time giving people the opportunity to back off. Now, if you pull the trigger, you should be shooting to kill.

There is a whole different set of statutes for LEO in FL. Check it out.

 

[Razz]

There is a whole different set of statutes for LEO in FL. Check it out.

Well D was certainly worried. Please don't shoot me. Don't kill me.....as Police, with weapons drawn, advanced on him as he took the prone position. I wonder what would have happened to D had police come upon him sooner? He might have been the one 6 feet under. He never should have taken matters into his own hands. And I realize that some think the other 2 are innocent but they're not. IMO, they are accessories to SM's murder.

 

[GatorFL]

Well D was certainly worried. Please don't shoot me. Don't kill me.....as Police, with weapons drawn, advanced on him as he took the prone position. I wonder what would have happened to D had police come upon him sooner? He might have been the one 6 feet under. He never should have taken matters into his own hands. And I realize that some think the other 2 are innocent but they're not. IMO, they are accessories to SM's murder.

If that is your rationale then so is her mother who was also brandishing a firearm.

 

[Razz]

If that is your rationale then so is her mother who was also brandishing a firearm.

As it was, Mama had no bullets. But D didn't know that. Perhaps she would have been #2? But Police, by that time knew that SM and her mother were not the dangerous ones.