FLDS compound in Texas Court proceedings ONLY please!!!!!

[Blue_Dolphin308]

130 are under the age of 4

 

[barb0301]

Ladybass, thank you for doing the transcribing.

I am surprised they are doing the hearing this way. I had really hoped they would do it by 'family' specifically the fathers family. And have each of the mother's associated with the fathers included with the father. That would give them a large group, give them a better look at the individual family situation and would stop the name-switching, child switching. Unclaimed children could then be dealt with at the end of the proceeding.

Of course it would emphasize the multiple wives and so defense attorneys would probably object. But it would help resolve the attorneys request for individual proceedings.

But do you really think they could do this since everyone is switching names, refusing to identify themselves, etc? How could they ensure that they had the correct "family members" in each group? To ensure that they have the correct birth mothers/fathers, they are going to have to do DNA tests, which is going to take some time, and is going to be strenuously objected to by the FLDS attorneys, IMO.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

1:25 p.m. - Court is still not in session. Lawyers trickle in and huddle in groups, talking about the case. A few people from FLDS sit and wait, and some talk to a reporter.

 

[mollymalone]

Ladybass, thank you for doing the transcribing.

I am surprised they are doing the hearing this way. I had really hoped they would do it by 'family' specifically the fathers family. And have each of the mother's associated with the fathers included with the father. That would give them a large group, give them a better look at the individual family situation and would stop the name-switching, child switching. Unclaimed children could then be dealt with at the end of the proceeding.

Of course it would emphasize the multiple wives and so defense attorneys would probably object. But it would help resolve the attorneys request for individual proceedings.

I'm thinking it could come down to that, especially in specific individual hearings, but first they would have to do dna in order to prove which child belongs to who. Once they can construct a chart showing the man, the wives and which children belong to him it would be easier to present in court.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

1:28 p.m. - Court is back in session.
An attorney who represents multiple mothers begins talking about not having much access to her clients. She is asking that clients be given cell phones so they can contact them, and she wants access to the coliseum, where the children are housed. The women don't have an opportunity to know what's going on in the courtroom. She says there are women with medical issues.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

1:43 p.m. - A passing group of five Girl Scouts stops on the courthouse lawn to talk to a Tom Green County deputy.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

1:28 p.m. - Court is back in session.
An attorney who represents multiple mothers begins talking about not having much access to her clients. She is asking that clients be given cell phones so they can contact them, and she wants access to the coliseum, where the children are housed. The women don't have an opportunity to know what's going on in the courtroom. She says there are women with medical issues.
A court staff member responds, saying people at coliseum are doing the best job they can to make the coliseum accessible to everyone. People are making sure everyone gets a chance to see their clients, he said. The judge says she can't fix last night but will work on today. She says the cell phones were removed because of inappropriate use. The women are free to leave, she said.
"I have no way of knowing what's going on out there," she said.
The lawyer said she wants cell phones returned so they can speak to clients because they won't be in San Angelo all the time.
The judge said she is not keeping the clients; they are free to go any time.

Seems to me that the judge has already made her decision (to keep the children in state custody)! But is just going through the process to give everyone a fair chance!

 

[mollymalone]

I really don't feel good about these hearrings being grouped like this...

I think what has to happen is the decision whether to place them in foster care while the investigation is ongoing. Once that happens and authorities can sort out the family lineages, at that point there will be individual hearings for each child and or family.

The larger problem for the state is, because this really is an intermarrying, inter-related family is the entire compound considered the "home" or is the individual women's quarters considered individual "homes?" One that is decided it will better aid the Judge in deciding whether a child goes back into the abusive culture of this "home" or "homes."

 

[Clearly Confused]

I'm thinking it could come down to that, especially in specific individual hearings, but first they would have to do dna in order to prove which child belongs to who. Once they can construct a chart showing the man, the wives and which children belong to him it would be easier to present in court.

I think you are right. How do they know these mothers are even a childs parent? They don't have birth certificates so any Joe Shmoe could come in and say the kids are thiers. How do you release these kids if you don't know who the parents are?

 

[mollymalone]

1:28 p.m. - She says the cell phones were removed because of inappropriate use. The women are free to leave, she said.
"I have no way of knowing what's going on out there," she said.
The lawyer said she wants cell phones returned so they can speak to clients because they won't be in San Angelo all the time.
The judge said she is not keeping the clients; they are free to go any time.

Those from the FLDS really want those cell phones back into the hands of the women with the children so that they can "advise" or intimidate, not necessarily to check on the children. They want to know who's saying what to whom because there are some potential serious charges a lot of them could be facing, in particular because the testimony that each family had underage wives/girls who were pregnant.

 

[mollymalone]

I think you are right. How do they know these mothers are even a childs parent? They don't have birth certificates so any Joe Shmoe could come in and say the kids are thiers. How do you release these kids if you don't know who the parents are?

There are those who claim to have a birth certificate and I'll bet those are only the "First wives" who have them for their children. The others are not allowed to have them from what I've been hearing/reading. You can't release a child who is clearly from Canada to someone locally who claims to be their parent unless it can be proved.

One of the attorneys said that their client had a birth certificate and a drivers license and authorities could contact her at any time in future for investigating. BS.. IMO she'd be moved out of state immediately once her children were returned to her.

 

[LinasK]

Those from the FLDS really want those cell phones back into the hands of the women with the children so that they can "advise" or intimidate, not necessarily to check on the children. They want to know who's saying what to whom because there are some potential serious charges a lot of them could be facing, in particular because the testimony that each family had underage wives/girls who were pregnant.

I agree, which is why it was a good thing that the cell phones were removed. At least there has been a few days without intimidation and sexual abuse going on. The FLDS men will probably just start over with a new crop/herd of women.

 

[JerzWhim]

From what we know so far, it appears that the judge will be remanding all the children into state custody.

- Underage wives (a parent surrendering his/her child to such a condition constitutes abuse; this followed by the statutory rape of the husband)
- Pregnant minors (the physical result of statutory rape)
- No documented proof of kinship (how do you match each child to a mother and father?). A child can only be remanded to a legal guardian, and this guardianship must be proved by the parent (normally a birth certificate of the child does this).

For the judge to return the children despite the above established facts would be a gross legal error. It is just not going to happen.

I expect an umbrella decision to sort it all out by:
- having the state take custody of the kids
- the kinship relationships properly established
- investigation of any crimes
- an examination of the environment that these children are raised in (did they witness crimes, frequency of that witnessing)
- The filing of a few hundred criminal and custody court cases dependant on the findings.

 

[mollymalone]

From FOX:
Kris Gutierrez: The teens they talked to said according to their beliefs it's okay to be married at any age. Attorney tried to raise questions about the original phone call being a hoax.
Judge: Those questions are for a criminal trial not a court hearing.

Alicia Acuna : Rozita Swinton was arrested on a misdemeanor. The warrant is sealed and it's not usual to seal on a misdemeanor. The Texas Rangers went to Colorado Springs to investigate and see if there was any connections.

Greenberg: there are two cases here, the criminal and the court hearing for custody, in the short term those children will be held in state custody. The Judge can rely on information that turns out to be false. All they have to show in this initial seizure is that at the time the Judge had the information, it was reasonable.

Flora Jessop: escaped as a teen and runs a rescue mission. She took calls from Sarah, the 16 year old.

Flora: the system worked in this case.It's not my job to determine if they are real or not. It's my job to turn over to CPS and LE. When CPS couldn't find the girl. LE worked to find her. They worked closely with us to find this person who called.

I've helped rescue 84 women and children and they can transition, the children are resourceful and they come back. You have to love them into normalcy. You show them that love doesn't mean fear, pain and hate.

Initially, some of the children I have worked with they will say "you say you care but you don't because you don't hit me." They have to be shown that love doesn't mean you get hit across the face, or a belt across your back or locked in a room and not fed.

 

[mollymalone]

From what we know so far, it appears that the judge will be remanding all the children into state custody.

- Underage wives (a parent surrendering his/her child to such a condition constitutes abuse; this followed by the statutory rape of the husband)
- Pregnant minors (the physical result of statutory rape)
- No documented proof of kinship (how do you match each child to a mother and father?). A child can only be remanded to a legal guardian, and this guardianship must be proved by the parent (normally a birth certificate of the child does this).

For the judge to return the children despite the above established facts would be a gross legal error. It is just not going to happen.

I expect an umbrella decision to sort it all out by:
- having the state take custody of the kids
- the kinship relationships properly established
- investigation of any crimes
- an examination of the environment that these children are raised in (did they witness crimes, frequency of that witnessing)
- The filing of a few hundred criminal and custody court cases dependant on the findings.

Great summary. I too think that's what will occur.

 

[mollymalone]

I agree, which is why it was a good thing that the cell phones were removed. At least there has been a few days without intimidation and sexual abuse going on. The FLDS men will probably just start over with a new crop/herd of women.

Not if they can put them in jail for any crimes they may have committed. However, if they believe they'll be charged they'll be long gone, in fact some of them may be already.

 

[Linda7NJ]

A woman was arrested for making a false report of abuse to a former FLDS member. I don't know if it's the same person that made the initial reports that sparked this. But the women is being held and her bail is set a 20K

 

[Floh]

Thread for links in this story. please add a link which you think would be useful. the idea is to keep all links together in one place:

Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas — LINKS ONLY. No discussion.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2146620&posted=1#post2146620

 

[Leila]

130 are under the age of 4

I bet many of the mothers of these children who are under age 4, are girls who were underage when they conceived their first child.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

1:50 Attorney representing boys under age of five, teenage girls believed not to have children continue to ask specifics about what children should stay with their mothers. An attorney for boys age 5 to 11 asks if boys have been coached on how to respond. Objection is overruled. The witness said there is a sense that the children's interactions with strangers were being monitored. He said the boys think the ranch is a special place. Another attorney representing a 6-year-old boy asks which age group of children are at least risk for returning to their mothers only. He said the youngest children or babies are least influenced by any beliefs that may be unhelpful.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/