Flight to London Gatwick crashes at airport in India .June 12 th 2025

[indicolite22]

Thanks Dotta , I actually read the article you posted and unfortunately she's not mentioned which flight she was referring to .

I tried to do a bit of digging in the accident database and on 17th January at Osaka , this aircraft suffered engines shutdown after landing and was stuck on the runway . This , though , occurred after thrust reverser actuation and it remained stuck in position .
Assuming this is the incident she's referred to , it would appear technically unrelated as there's no apparent visual indication from the footage we have that this occurred to AI171 .

I'm interested in what she said simply because she's alluding that this has somewhat happened before without pilot's interference/action on a B787 , without giving appropriate context .
Essentially she's saying " this has happened before , could have happened again" .
Which is a bit too much on the vague side of things when it comes the technical aspects of a modern airliner , in my view.

All of the above is of course, as always JMO .

Link for the ANA flight I think she might refer to

Incident Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner JA825A, Thursday 17 January 2019

A Boeing 787-8 of All Nippon Airways operating ANA/NH985 from Tokyo/Haneda to Osaka/Itami stuck on runway 32L while landing at Itami due to sudden shut-down of both engines after Thrust R...

asn.flightsafety.org

Schiavo alluded to the same ANA incident in the media even before the Air India 171 preliminary report came out. It appears as if she hasn't read the report.

Article from June 25:

Plane crash disaster attorney reveals theory on Air India tragedy

Mary Schiavo, lead attorney in the aviation department at law firm Motley Rice, suggested that a computer error could have caused the Boeing 787 Dreamliner's engines to throttle back.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Spectrix]

I still have a lot of doubts as to how is the RAT out so early after lift off and I'm struggling to reconcile this with the fuel having been cut off so early and the aircraft still managed to gain ( relatively ) significant altitude after this point .

You're right, the RAT was deployed so soon after lift off because those fuel switches were turned off just seconds after the wheels left the tarmac.

The reason that the Aircraft was able to acsend after this point is due to transient speed from the take-off run.
It was - for a short while - able trade air speed for positive lift.
So it gained altitude only until its airspeed dropped low enough for a stall.

 

[Charlot123]

I don't care what Ted Bundy's or this guy's life story was. Nothing in their past could mitigate their decision to murder innocent people. (JMO)

How can we prevent if we don't know?

I assume that in cases of Ted Bundy, school shooters or, a recent one, BK, we may never understand nor prevent it because we enter the area of sadistic dreams that break into reality. It will be, "what medication also increases homicidality?", more chemistry- based.

JMO: suicial pilots are not Bundy by any means. Maybe they are closer to Nicole Lindon, a bipolar nurse who managed to kill six people in a horrible fiery crash? Or some suicidal driver who bangs his vehicle into a tree, or another car, causing a massive chain collision? Or, people who jump off rooftops or bridges and kill someone else upon landing? When their world is going to end, they don't factor in that they can also end someone else's life. But, amidst this impulsivity there is still some shred or rational thinking. In other words, Sabharwal probably didn't expect his involvement to come out. Shah didn't think he'd be blamed; he just forgot about military radars and didn't know about Immarsat. Start with this; there still is some logic and the wish to make a crash it look accidental; it gives me hope.

Reading through the suicidal pilots group, a very small one, in none of the cases harming the passengers seems to be the goal. I see stressed out people, I see a person erroneously qualified to fly despite preexisting mental disorder. In one case, there is money loss and a life insurance bought shortly before the flight. Perhaps some pilots are angry with "the industry". And while i expected to see more "young and impulsive" people, it would seem that the group nearing retirement is more vulnerable.

These people are ill. But, it is a small group, with some shreds of logic remaining amidst the chaos, and I think there is the room for prevention to minimize the risk.

So yes, I think we should study their lives/intentions.

 

[CriLondon]

You're right, the RAT was deployed so soon after lift off because those fuel switches were turned off just seconds after the wheels left the tarmac.

The reason that the Aircraft was able to acsend after this point is due to transient speed from the take-off run.
It was - for a short while - able trade air speed for positive lift.
So it gained altitude only until its airspeed dropped low enough for a stall.

Thank you for the well expressed reply !

From the picture I've uploaded it's still fairly close to the tarmac , which makes me think this happened literally after rotation if not during .

 

[indicolite22]

More leaks from the investigation, this time to an Italian publication (translation by Google):

"The plane is in your hands." With these words, Captain Sumeet Sabharwal entrusted First Officer Clive Kunder with the takeoff of Air India Flight 171 from Ahmedabad to London Gatwick. The conversation was among the first recorded by one of the "black boxes" at 12:39 on June 12, two Western sources familiar with the matter told Corriere della Sera.
...
At 1:38:44 PM, sources say, the microphone attached to the first officer's seat recorded Kunder asking, with great surprise, "Why did you shut off the engines?" A second later, the other microphone, assigned to the captain's seat, recorded a vague "I didn't." Kunder was unconvinced and asked the same question several more times, for another six seconds.
...
First Officer Kunder, initially surprised, panicked, repeatedly asking his superior why he had done so, while the captain denied it and then remained silent.

Air India, la trappola del comandante Sumeet Sabharwal al primo ufficiale: «L’aereo è nelle tue mani». Era depresso

Le indagini ora cercano di capire cosa abbia spinto il comandante a far precipitare l’aereo. I dialoghi in cabina, gli schermi che si spengono e la disperazione del primo ufficiale. Un collega: soffriva di depressione

www.corriere.it

The first part wouldn't be unusual if it happened before the flight started. The second part reveals that the FO first questioned the captain just a second after both switches were turned off and repeated the question over and over. This could mean that the FO saw it happen.

 

[Cryptic]

Pilot certifications (apart from flight instructor) don’t expire, per se. They are for life,I would say it’s be almost unthinkable for an airline pilot to continue flying without the requisite certifications, unless forgery was somehow involved.

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking that various certificates could require retraining on simulators, or with mentors to remain valid etc. But.... that does not appear to be the case.

As a side note, other You Tube crash analysis videos described a crash where a pilot had an Instruments Flight Rules certificate, but then effectively had not actually flown in IFR conditions for years. He then tried to do an IFR landing, got disoriented and crashed.

As you noted,however, once he obtained the IFR certificate, he had it for good. There was no required retraining to maintain it. Nor, was there a requirement that he actually fly in IFR conditions to keep the certificate etc.

 

[warp3dwing]

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking that various certificates could require retraining on simulators, or with mentors to remain valid etc. But.... that does not appear to be the case.

As a side note, other You Tube crash analysis videos described a crash where a pilot had an Instruments Flight Rules certificate, but then effectively had not actually flown in IFR conditions for years. He then tried to do an IFR landing, got disoriented and crashed.

As you noted,however, once he obtained the IFR certificate, he had it for good. There was no required retraining to maintain it. Nor, was there a requirement that he actually fly in IFR conditions to keep the certificate etc.

No, you are correct. To actually use the certificate, certain things have to be done in certain timeframes. Airline pilots go through sim training sessions every few months, and they also stay legally current through regular flying.

An instrument rating requires 6 instrument approaches flown within the last 6 months to be current and legal. That’s no issue with airline pilots who fly IFR all the time, but there are plenty of instances where private pilots fly IFR while out of practice/currency and get themselves into big trouble.

 

[GraceG]

Similar to the US, Indian airline pilots are required to hold a class 1 medical. For those pilots over 40 years of age, an exam must be completed every 6 months. The airline will require a successful medical certificate to allow the pilot to fly.

Pilot certifications (apart from flight instructor) don’t expire, per se. They are for life, unless the administrator revokes them for some reason (unless things are castly different in India). However, certain things need to happen for the certificate to remain valid. But at the airline level, the airline itself will make sure their pilots meet the requirements to carry passengers, operate under IFR, etc. I would say it’s be almost unthinkable for an airline pilot to continue flying without the requisite certifications, unless forgery was somehow involved.

You are correct that pilot certs outside of the flight instructor don't expire though obvious currency requirements must be met prior to carring passengers. But that is in the United States. India may have expirations on some pilot certificates including those used at the Airline Transport Level.

From the following article regarding Airline Pilots Association of India petition for change to regulations on license expiration:

"ALPA India says , Earlier the validity of Indian CPL and ATPL licenses were limited to one year and subsequently validity was increased to Five years.

Now, there is a need to bring Indian Licensing standard at par with ICAO and License validity to be made indefinite , which is being followed by majority of regulators around the world."

Airline Pilots’ Associaton of India 'ALPA' writes to Indian Regulator DGCA to issue pilot's Licence without an expiry date !

ALPA India - The Airline Pilots’ Associaton of India . ALPA India says , Earlier the validity of Indian CPL and ATPL licenses were limited to one year and subsequently validity was increased to Five years. Now, there is a need to bring Indian Licensing standard at par with ICAO and License...

fl360aero.com

 

[warp3dwing]

You are correct that pilot certs outside of the flight instructor don't expire though obvious currency requirements must be met prior to carring passengers. But that is in the United States. India may have expirations on some pilot certificates including those used at the Airline Transport Level.

From the following article regarding Airline Pilots Association of India petition for change to regulations on license expiration:

"ALPA India says , Earlier the validity of Indian CPL and ATPL licenses were limited to one year and subsequently validity was increased to Five years.

Now, there is a need to bring Indian Licensing standard at par with ICAO and License validity to be made indefinite , which is being followed by majority of regulators around the world."

Airline Pilots’ Associaton of India 'ALPA' writes to Indian Regulator DGCA to issue pilot's Licence without an expiry date !

ALPA India - The Airline Pilots’ Associaton of India . ALPA India says , Earlier the validity of Indian CPL and ATPL licenses were limited to one year and subsequently validity was increased to Five years. Now, there is a need to bring Indian Licensing standard at par with ICAO and License...

fl360aero.com

Interesting, thanks for posting that. It looks like they require renewal paperwork alongside proficiency checks. For an active airline pilot in India, the renewal wouldn’t be a concern. The requirements aren’t too different from the U.S.’s currency requirements, plus medical, of course. But if a pilot had stopped flying for a significant period of time, it would be more difficult to renew.

Do you know if the captain stopped flying for a length of time?

 

[IQuestion]

The revelation of the CapSumeet, was "calm" in spite of the young co-pilot asking over and over again, "Why did you cut off the fuel?!"
is revealing, horrible and tortuous to read. But, I am not surprised. Once a person in a psychiatric crisis makes a decision to commit self harm or harm others they have already accepted their fate.
Suicide is a selfish act. One of my friends called it "the ultimate temper tantrum." The final act of control, in a life out of control.
" Unfortunately, appearing calm for no clear and meaningful reason is generally not a good sign in the midst of psychological turmoil. Too often, it is a reflection of someone in distress who has decided to commit homicide or suicide, with an ensuing sense of relief in the decision. In this case, it was homicide."

Beware of an Unexpected Calmness in our Patients and Others

Is this patient reaction the calm before the storm?

www.psychiatrictimes.com

 

[Dotta]

I'll be honest
I'm very unpleasantly surprised by these leaks.

I consider this situation highly unprofessional.
Running to the Media with stories.
Media, of course, eagerly print everything
not minding sensationalism.
No surprise here cough, cough.

I have always thought
that the Investigation Team
(I'm not sure of the official name)
works in solidarity.

And after diligent work
and checking all options & possibilities
they present OFFICIAL report.
That they are Unity.

It seems
my belief is naive.

JMO

 

[Cryptic]

That’s no issue with airline pilots who fly IFR all the time, but there are plenty of instances where private pilots fly IFR while out of practice/currency and get themselves into big trouble.

That was exactly the circumstances. Private pilot who had completed a training course and had been given the certificate. But.... after a lack of practice, could only do IFR in theory, not in actuality

 

[australianwebsleuth]

Similar to the US, Indian airline pilots are required to hold a class 1 medical. For those pilots over 40 years of age, an exam must be completed every 6 months. The airline will require a successful medical certificate to allow the pilot to fly.

Pilot certifications (apart from flight instructor) don’t expire, per se. They are for life, unless the administrator revokes them for some reason (unless things are castly different in India). However, certain things need to happen for the certificate to remain valid. But at the airline level, the airline itself will make sure their pilots meet the requirements to carry passengers, operate under IFR, etc. I would say it’s be almost unthinkable for an airline pilot to continue flying without the requisite certifications, unless forgery was somehow involved.

“Forgery”, not at all, just the customary fee that is at the centre of all business transactions in India…. “Bribery”.

I wonder how many other AI pilots are in breech.

It’s why I fly QANTAS.

 

[indicolite22]

The bolded part is new:

The first officer was at the controls of the Boeing 787 and asked the captain why he moved the fuel switches into a position that starved the engines of fuel and requested that he restore the fuel flow, the source* told Reuters on condition of anonymity because the matter remains under investigation.
...
The U.S. assessment is not contained in a formal document, said the source, who emphasized the cause of the June 12 crash in Ahmedabad, India, that killed 260 people remains under investigation.

* a source briefed on U.S. officials' early assessment of evidence

Air India cockpit recording suggests captain cut fuel to engines before crash, source says

The U.S. assessment is not contained in a formal document, said a source, who emphasized the cause of the deadly crash remains under investigation.

www.reuters.com

 

[Charlot123]

Similar to the US, Indian airline pilots are required to hold a class 1 medical. For those pilots over 40 years of age, an exam must be completed every 6 months. The airline will require a successful medical certificate to allow the pilot to fly.

Pilot certifications (apart from flight instructor) don’t expire, per se. They are for life, unless the administrator revokes them for some reason (unless things are castly different in India). However, certain things need to happen for the certificate to remain valid. But at the airline level, the airline itself will make sure their pilots meet the requirements to carry passengers, operate under IFR, etc. I would say it’s be almost unthinkable for an airline pilot to continue flying without the requisite certifications, unless forgery was somehow involved.

Very interesting.

Sabharwal passed his medical certification on September 5, 2024. Kunder passed his in February of 2025.

Could it have been the issue? If India has the same requirements for pilots over 40, once every 6 months, then Sabharwal was way overdue with his medical exam.

Did he delay his because he was going to “retire”, but never retired?

 

[indicolite22]

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing have privately issued notifications that the fuel switch locks on Boeing planes are safe
...
Two U.S. safety experts said on Saturday they backed ALPA India's request to be observers in the probe, but said the investigation report did not suggest a bias toward pilot error.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/amid-air-india-probe-us-faa-boeing-notify-fuel-switch-locks-are-safe-document-2025-07-13/

 

[Skigh]

Air India pilot's final words as he left home before plane crash

Captain Sumeet Sabharwal, 56, was the senior pilot onboard the Boeing 787 Dreamliner that plummeted into a residential area, killing 241 people on board and 19 people on the ground.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Friends and colleagues also reject the idea Sabharwal was responsible, claiming he was a 'gentle soul' and an 'ace pilot' who had never been involved in any major incident prior to the crash.

Neil Pais, 61, a former colleague of Sabharwal, told The Telegraph he was 'one of the nicest people you could ever hope to fly with'.

'He had absolutely no airs about himself, so humble, so respectful. Always a smile when he spoke to you,' he added.

'I never once saw him raise his voice or lose his temper. And yet he never compromised on work or safety. If there was an issue, he'd point it out, but always in the nicest possible way.'

Another colleague and close friend, Captain Kapil Kohal, said Sabharwal was a 'hero' with a 'gentle soul'.

Despite his nickname of ‘Sad Sack’, given because of his 'melancholic eyes', Sabharwal was 'deeply charismatic and always ready to help,' he added.

But the sadness noticed by his peers was endemic of a deeper tragedy.

Sabharwal had struggled to come to terms with the death of his mother in 2022 and in the wake of her passing had separated from his wife and moved from Delhi to Mumbai, to be closer to his elderly father, Pushkaraj.

 

[emirates1957]

Due to their design the fuel control switches could not be accidentally turned off. IMO the captain knew what he was doing. His denial and subsequent non-reaction also speak for themselves.

“Forgery”, not at all, just the customary fee that is at the centre of all business transactions in India…. “Bribery”.

I wonder how many other AI pilots are in breech.

It’s why I fly QANTAS.

With all due respect it just doesn’t work like that. Also QANTAS stands for Quick And Nasty Typical Australian Service. Hubbie was a Lame for QF for over 40 years. Perhaps bribery in transactions….but not flying.

 

[IQuestion]

Air India pilot's final words as he left home before plane crash

Captain Sumeet Sabharwal, 56, was the senior pilot onboard the Boeing 787 Dreamliner that plummeted into a residential area, killing 241 people on board and 19 people on the ground.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Sabharwal had struggled to come to terms with the death of his mother in 2022 and in the wake of her passing had separated from his wife and moved from Delhi to Mumbai, to be closer to his elderly father, Pushkaraj.

SNIPPED FOR FOCUS: I had read and heard he was divorced. And, a broadcast with two other pilots claimed "he went through a bad divorce" but that it was not uncommon. Okay.
Unfortunately this has become a "them vs us discussion/topic" and claims of corporate cover ups.
One journalist claiming the WSJ got the story even before the initial investigation was released. Hmmm. maybe many news outlets received it, but India Press chose not to print it, because it was not what they expected?? This has become a rallying point to air past aggrievances. and therefore every piece of evidence, regardless of how factual will be overshadowed by claims of bias.
Indian Airline?, Indian Pilots?, Indian Airport?, Indian Maintenance? But it has to be someone else's fault., right? Wrong!

• Jan. 1st, 1978. Air India Flight 855 crashed due to the pilot being Spatially Disoriented. All 213 are killed.
• 2010: Air India Express Flight 812 goes beyond the runway and crashes. 160 people are killed.

 

[Charlot123]

So I read again through official Air India preliminary investigation.

Pilot Sabharwal had his last Class I medical evaluation on September 5, 2024.

Pilot Kunder has similar evaluation on February 4, 2025.

————-

I don’t know how often pilots need to have their medicals done in India. Is it every 6 months or annually? But surely, Sabharwal’s one was not “shortly before” the flight. It was almost a year before.

About licenses: Sabharwal’s ATPL license holder was valid till September 14 2026.

Kunder’s CPL license holder was valid till September 26 2025.

—————

So on the captain’s side, either the medical evaluation lapsed or he knew that he won’t pass another one.

On the FO’s side, his CPL license was expiring soon.

The way it looks to me, one pilot is quite experienced, with some issues going on in his life, some stress of which we still know little, planning to retire.

The other pilot, fit physically, but needing to extend his license. Question, what was needed for it and whether “pilot flying” was the condition for extension, hence, he flew on 171 flight?