For Those Who Do Not Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[Karinna]

There's no logic behind the "planting the body."

Never a cohesive, rational explanation for exactly how TH's remains ended up in SA's burn pit in a planting scenario.

- The planter or planters would have arranged to get TH's phone, camera, PDA and leave that in the burn barrel near SA's trailer, without being seen and without Bear the dog alerting to a stranger.
- The planter(s) coincidentally arranged for SA to be seen dumping a bag in the barrel the afternoon of TH's disappearance, then arranging for a fire to be lit in the burn barrel.

- Someone would have to get a hold of TH and kill her, wearing the clothes she wore while at ASY.
- That person or persons would have to burn her body and get some of her remains intertwined within steel belts from burned tires.
- Then her charred bones, tooth (or teeth) and other burned items (jean rivet(s) etc) would have to be transported to ASY, along with the melded steel belts that intertwined with some of TH's bones.
- Then those charred bones would have to be spread in the burn pit outside of SA's trailer.
- The planter felt it was important to put one or more of TH's larger bones in the burn barrel between SA & Janda trailers and did so without any detection or alerting by Bear.
- This master planter would need to be at ASY long enough to do all this planting, without detection, having gotten past Bear the German Shepard, and also cause Bear to not bark at the stranger approaching with TH's remains.
- The cremains were not just sitting on top in the burn pit, they were discovered underneath a layer of ash and dirt, so the planter needs to make that happen. It was coincidentally very helpful for SA to leave tools at the burn pit that would help the planter plant those charred bones and steel belts melded with some TH bones in the pit -- shovel, hacksaw blade, hammer.
- Then the planter or planters need to make sure SA used his fire pit to coincide with TH's day of disappearance, knowing she had not been seen or heard from by anyone else from the time she was seen walking toward SA's trailer door.
- The planter was able to make sure TH never used her phone again at the same time she happened to be at ASY and in the presence of SA.
- Then the planter or planters had to make sure investigators found TH remains that were buried under the layer of ash in SA's burn pit. They didn't make it easy for her remains to be found -- it required a trained cadaver scent dog to alert on the burn barrel which ultimately led investigators to SA's trailer, burn pit and cremains discovery.
- Then, in a master stroke of pure evil genius, the planter ensured that SA's nephew, the one who definitely helped SA clean a 3x3 area of SA's garage floor with 3 chemicals, staining his pants with bleach whilst doing so, and then helping his uncle start a large fire that burned for hours, felt traumatized to the extent that he talked to his female cousin and had her so troubled she seeked out counseling at the guidance counseling office at school, where she talked about blood, concrete, body being moved and her concern about her cousin.


Not even Agents Scully or Mulder would believe that one.

Teresa Halbach's alleged bones were found in various locations not just one location, how do you explain that?

 

[Karinna]

I think i know where the Fairytales are coming from and its not from the facts of the case.

 

[IDK]

What about the cut on Avery's finger? Did LE plant that too? LOL

Can you please explain how a cut on his finger is proof of guilt? This is very common for mechanics and others who work with their hands. Obviously SA was not a white collar professional!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

But of course!

I want to say its a pleasure to post with you. It's satisfying to post with you because you understand the obvious without needing a detailed explanation.

 

[CoolJ]

Can you please explain how a cut on his finger is proof of guilt? This is very common for mechanics and others who work with their hands. Obviously SA was not a white collar professional!

Sitting here right now, i can count 3 small cuts on my hand. And i don't work in a Salvage yard by any stretch of the imagination.
Not to mention, if one is to believe there was no framing or planting of evidence they should at least comprehend the framing and planting theories:

The cut on Avery's hand is not a sign of guilt whatsoever because we have evidence/testimony this cut was previous to the murder. On the contrary, this cut gave the planters (doesn't necessarily have to have been LE) an opportunity. When they saw the cut on his hand they knew exactly how they could frame him. Or direct others on how to frame him.

 

[CoolJ]

We have heard that there were anywhere from 50-100 LEO's at the ASY during the searches. We also heard that MCSO was to only be involved in the investigation to assist with resources.

Why then, are MCSO officers, out of the 50-100 on site, always the ones hanging around when evidence is found. This is highly, highly suspicious.

And then we have the before and after pictures of the bookshelf where the key was found. Colbourn said he was quite violent with it in order to shake the key lose. But everything on top, including COINS is in the exact same place. THIS IS EVIDENCE of framing right here. It proves Colbourn lied.

How come Kratz and his new sidekick Fassbender don't address these questions?
How come Kratz' puppets don't address these questions?

 

[Madeleine74]

I want to say its a pleasure to post with you. It's satisfying to post with you because you understand the obvious without needing a detailed explanation.

Thank you and likewise!

 

[Limaes]

What about the cut on Avery's finger? Did LE plant that too? LOL

:floorlaugh:: :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Limaes]

Going over the newer photos now that I have more time and attaching court testimony. Something important to mention is that this particular photo was shown to the jury. It was never presented to them as BD's version of the bedroom furniture but a combination of both BD's & JS descriptions.

Wiegert testified at BD's trial...

"When we interviewed Brendan, he had stated that you could see now -- you could see Teresa from looking down that hallway. And we initially thought, well, how can that be? Because if the bed is here, there's no way you could see Teresa on that bed from looking down the hallway, when he says he just walks in the house and he looks down there."

In closing argument, the jury heard...

"How about the location of the bed? Counsel would have you believe that because the defendant's version of all of the placement of all the furniture is somewhat different than Jodi Stachowski's, that he shouldn't be believed. Again, core details versus peripheral. What's important. What's not. The location of the bed is the critical fact. In other words, you can look down that hallway and see that bed, and that's the point."


Basically what the Defense claimed, and what SA's supporters continue to do, is suggest that every single item in that room should have matched in both BD & JS descriptions. This is hyperbole. They both put the bed right in the view of someone looking down the hallway, which is what BD stated in his accurate confession and the jury obviously agreed.

So SA, between Oct 31st and Nov 5th, shampooed his carpets and rearranged his furniture and we're to believe it was a coincidence? Riigghht [emoji57]

JMO

 

[Madeleine74]

Going over the newer photos now that I have more time and attaching court testimony. Something important to mention is that this particular photo was shown to the jury. It was never presented to them as BD's version of the bedroom furniture but a combination of both BD's & JS description. {snipped for space}

So SA, between Oct 31st and Nov 5th, shampooed his carpets and rearranged his furniture and we're to believe it was a coincidence? Riigghht [emoji57]

If you recall, when you first opined, maybe a couple months ago, that SA vacuumed or otherwise cleaned his carpets, the response was prove SA did any such thing. Since then we recently learned there is a recorded phone call between SA and JS while she was in jail, from Nov 1, 2005, in which the two (SA and JS) discuss the fact that SA did endeavor to clean his carpets, then took back the carpet cleaner he had been using to clean and then returned with another one.

Predictably, the reaction to this carpet cleaning revelation was, so what, he cleaned his carpets.. besides, it's not like a carpet cleaner would really work to get out DNA and evidence (as if SA would know or believe this). The relevance is SA's activities are occurring around the time TH was murdered and that links SA, SA's specific cleaning activities, and a short timeframe. Further, SA used cleaning agents on some surfaces (remember LE who first entered his trailer noted the smell of cleaning chemicals). I noticed that SA was no neat nick, the layers of dust on and in some of his bedroom furniture as shown in various pictures taken in his bedroom, contrasted with the areas he chose to clean.

So now there's proof that SA did clean his trailer and carpets around Oct 31, 2005, direct proof in his and JS's own words. That's on top of 2 witnesses providing independent statements that SA's bedroom furniture before and on Oct 31 was in different spots than when LE saw his bedroom. SA had nearly 4+ days after disappearing TH, it's no surprise he spent time cleaning areas.

 

[Madeleine74]

Back to the burn pit.

When exactly did someone "plant" TH's cremains in that burn pit?

SA stayed home the afternoon of Monday Oct 31, 2005, after TH was there. Bear the dog was outside over the next several days, seen and photographed when LE was there, around his usual spot near the berm of the fire pit.

Saturday Nov 5 is supposedly when SA went up to Crivitz. Earl supposedly did not go, as the salvage yard was open for business, with customers coming and going. Barb, Bobby and Scott supposedly did not go to Crivitz that weekend.

So who did it, when did they do it, and how did they manage to get past Bear or otherwise cause Bear not to alert SA or anyone else while they not just sprinkled, but buried those bones under a layer of ash, tire remnants, a burned bench and other flotsam?

 

[Limaes]

Back to the burn pit.

When exactly did someone "plant" TH's cremains in that burn pit?

SA stayed home the afternoon of Monday Oct 31, 2005, after TH was there. Bear the dog was outside over the next several days, seen and photographed when LE was there, around his usual spot near the berm of the fire pit.

Saturday Nov 5 is supposedly when SA went up to Crivitz. Earl supposedly did not go, as the salvage yard was open for business, with customers coming and going. Barb, Bobby and Scott supposedly did not go to Crivitz that weekend.

So who did it, when did they do it, and how did they manage to get past Bear or otherwise cause Bear not to alert SA or anyone else while they not just sprinkled, but buried those bones under a layer of ash, tire remnants, a burned bench and other flotsam?

That is a good question. Really, the suggestion that LE, or anyone else that has been thrown under the bus, took tiny fragments of bones and painstakingly sat there intertwining them through the wire from the tyres is...it can not be put into words is all I can say. If one was writing a script for a bad made for tv movie about the case, you couldn't come up with a plausible scenario of this occurring if you want the viewers to believe what you're selling.

JMO

 

[Limaes]

If you recall, when you first opined, maybe a couple months ago, that SA vacuumed or otherwise cleaned his carpets, the response was prove SA did any such thing. Since then we recently learned there is a recorded phone call between SA and JS while she was in jail, from Nov 1, 2005, in which the two (SA and JS) discuss the fact that SA did endeavor to clean his carpets, then took back the carpet cleaner he had been using to clean and then returned with another one.

Predictably, the reaction to this carpet cleaning revelation was, so what, he cleaned his carpets.. besides, it's not like a carpet cleaner would really work to get out DNA and evidence (as if SA would know or believe this). The relevance is SA's activities are occurring around the time TH was murdered and that links SA, SA's specific cleaning activities, and a short timeframe. Further, SA used cleaning agents on some surfaces (remember LE who first entered his trailer noted the smell of cleaning chemicals). I noticed that SA was no neat nick, the layers of dust on and in some of his bedroom furniture as shown in various pictures taken in his bedroom, contrasted with the areas he chose to clean.

So now there's proof that SA did clean his trailer and carpets around Oct 31, 2005, direct proof in his and JS's own words. That's on top of 2 witnesses providing independent statements that SA's bedroom furniture before and on Oct 31 was in different spots than when LE saw his bedroom. SA had nearly 4+ days after disappearing TH, it's no surprise he spent time cleaning areas.

Yes, that was also when I read testimony about how many hairs were found. I will see if I can find it again.

 

[Madeleine74]

I know a picture of BD's bleach stained jeans are posted above, but I saw this negative reversal done to better show the amount and arrangement of the bleach stains and I thought it was quite illustrative. The red areas and numerous red dots are the bleach stains.

I'm posting the link as the photo itself is too large for a forum.

http://i.imgur.com/wPSJrK5.jpg

 

[Madeleine74]

That is a good question. Really, the suggestion that LE, or anyone else that has been thrown under the bus, took tiny fragments of bones and painstakingly sat there intertwining them through the wire from the tyres is...it can not be put into words is all I can say. If one was writing a script for a bad made for tv movie about the case, you couldn't come up with a plausible scenario of this occurring if you want the viewers to believe what you're selling.

It's been suggested that LE had it in for SA and this was their way of putting him away because they (MTCO) were worried about paying out $$$$ in a lawsuit and it's been further suggested the motive the cops had centered around concern about losing their pensions.

Pensions are protected by Federal and State laws, which would not be subject to any seizure due to a lawsuit, so that excuse doesn't wash. The county itself, as most governments do, carries property and liability insurance. That is administered by the County Comptroller. The county and its employees was protected by whatever liability insurance limits they had in their plan(s), which typically include umbrella policy coverage.

Second, none of the cops or personnel involved in the 2005 murder investigation were named defendants or subject to personal liability for the wrongful conviction lawsuit. Lenk & Colburn were deposed but neither their pensions nor personal finances were at risk due to the lawsuit. Neither of them was considered a party to the wrongful conviction. They were witnesses, not defendants in the lawsuit.

So financial motive for "framing" doesn't exist -- not for the MTOC personnel who were involved in investigating the murder case.

Practically, if the police "had it in for SA" and "wanted to get him and put him away" they could have with absolutely no framing. SA had in his possession at least 1 (and maybe 2?) firearms. As a convicted felon he was not allowed to possess any firearms. He had firearms in his trailer, ripe for LE to find anytime. A conviction would net up to 10 years in prison for each offense. Further, a criminal complaint was filed by M.A., SA's niece, who accused SA of sexual assault/rape during the summer of 2004 (this is in the case file). That case could have been litigated and I don't know how many years SA could get but I bet more than just a few.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

A clear and convincing motive for LE framing Steven Avery has eluded me.

 

[mckaylahamilton]

Here are my musings:

For me, I just see Avery for what he is, which is not a very nice guy who was and still is, if released, totally capable of killing people. When you hear a story about this "poor innocent" guy who spent 18 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit you think oh my gosh, how horrible. And, it is. But, he wasn't truly innocent. Six of those 18 years he was concurrently serving a sentence for assaulting a woman. You never hear that. Filmmakers and big Avery supporters try and brush his criminal history under the rug but the reality is that he was a young man who was unable to go more than about a year at a time without getting caught committing crimes. And, the crimes were escalating in nature. First it's robbery, then it's animal cruelty and then assault. It's not a big stretch to rape and/or murder with that criminal history.

I also disregard any arguments about how he was framed to avoid a big judgment in Avery's civil case. People act as if because he asked for millions of dollars he was going to get that much. There recently was a case in Wisconsin of a man who could show that the police planted evidence (oddly, his name was Avery too) and a civil jury gave him very little as a result. Avery was never going to get $30 plus million dollars and even if he had it's not as though that money was going to come out of the detectives pockets.

If the police had been desperate to get Avery back in prison they could have planted heroin, a handgun, or something else on his property or in the trailer far easier than either actually killing Theresa themselves or lucking into someone else killing her and disposing of her body on his property. And, as it turns out, they didn't even have to plant a firearm because he already had one despite being a felon and knowing he couldn't. Huh, big surprise that not even out of prison two years and he was committing more crimes. Currently, he is properly in prison serving time for being a felon in possession of a firearm so I'll worry about Avery being wrongfully in prison again in another year when he'd be due to be released if he hadn't been convicted for Theresa's murder.

I also see the phone calls as just a huge red flag. That he was always specifically requesting Theresa, that he purposely tried to make her uncomfortable by opening the door in just a towel, that he gave his sister's name when he called to request her, that he called her repeatedly but blocked his phone number, etc. just really starts to add up to something not being right.

And then there's Brendan. Although I believe some of what he told the police maybe have been fabricated, I don't believe the overall gist of what he said was. I feel bad for him because he was a kid with a crappy uncle who pulled him into something he was wholly unable to handle. He probably didn't feel he had a choice but to go long with what was happening, be it killing Theresa or just being involved in burning her body, but instead of arguing that, he chose to confess and then recant.

I let time get away from me. I'm late getting the kids in bed but I'll be sure to check back later to see what others think.

I've watched many documentaries and read many books and articles about Theresa Halbach death and the prosecution of Steven Avery. And I 100% agree with your standing. There is no doubt in my mind that he is guilty of everything he was on trial for. His long criminal history shows the escalation of violent behaviour. Murder is not a far cry from crimes he had already committed. A man being wrongfully imprisoned is unfortunate to say the least, but with the death of Theresa Halbach this was not the case. They had the right man. He preyed on her for a long while before taking action. And Brendan was taken advantage of, though I do believe he knew that what he was participating in was wrong. I don't agree that he should be released as early as he was, because he was fully aware of the crime he committed he just didn't mastermind it all. He shouldn't serve life in prison like Avery but he does deserve longer behind bars then he got.


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[missy1974]

I've watched many documentaries and read many books and articles about Theresa Halbach death and the prosecution of Steven Avery. And I 100% agree with your standing. There is no doubt in my mind that he is guilty of everything he was on trial for. His long criminal history shows the escalation of violent behaviour. Murder is not a far cry from crimes he had already committed. A man being wrongfully imprisoned is unfortunate to say the least, but with the death of Theresa Halbach this was not the case. They had the right man. He preyed on her for a long while before taking action. And Brendan was taken advantage of, though I do believe he knew that what he was participating in was wrong. I don't agree that he should be released as early as he was, because he was fully aware of the crime he committed he just didn't mastermind it all. He shouldn't serve life in prison like Avery but he does deserve longer behind bars then he got.


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Welcome to websleuths! :wagon:

Just so you know, Brendan has not been released yet. He is still waiting on the 7th Circuit Court to decide his fate, his latest hearing was on Feb. 14th. You can find the details of that on this thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...rpus-Petition-Granted&p=13205570#post13205570 It's a fairly lengthy thread, but as developments come along, it's usually posted in there

If you have the time ... www.stevenaverycase.org is a wonderful site that has all the trial transcripts, including pre and post trial transcripts. It also has photo's, exhibits, reports, etc. It's a great resource if you are looking for the facts. IMO I wouldn't rely on any book or article in this case, there is a lot of misinformation out there (and I'm not just referring to Kratz or MG's books).

Happy sleuthing and again, welcome to websleuths!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I've watched many documentaries and read many books and articles about Theresa Halbach death and the prosecution of Steven Avery. And I 100% agree with your standing. There is no doubt in my mind that he is guilty of everything he was on trial for. His long criminal history shows the escalation of violent behaviour. Murder is not a far cry from crimes he had already committed. A man being wrongfully imprisoned is unfortunate to say the least, but with the death of Theresa Halbach this was not the case. They had the right man. He preyed on her for a long while before taking action. And Brendan was taken advantage of, though I do believe he knew that what he was participating in was wrong. I don't agree that he should be released as early as he was, because he was fully aware of the crime he committed he just didn't mastermind it all. He shouldn't serve life in prison like Avery but he does deserve longer behind bars then he got.


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Excellent first post on Websleuths. Don't let minor things being pointed out like Brendan not being released yet keep you from posting your opinion about this case,

You may have noticed that there is a certain group that believes Avery was framed and evidence planted(modsnip).

(modsnip)

 

[Madeleine74]

Welcome mckaylahamilton!

Those of us who do not believe any planting or framing occurred in this case discuss the case from that angle in this thread.

There are scores of threads in the MaM subforum, as you no doubt noticed, but this thread is focused on a shared conclusion about what was alleged in the miniseries and by the defense.