Forensic Botany

[JWG]

I posted this on the June 18 sticky thread (with some new edits here) and thought it would be useful to toss in here as well, just to keep things in perspective.

I would not go so far as to say June 18 is a fixed firm date. This is an estimated date based solely on the forensic botanist and / or entomologist report. Plant and insect growth is affected by variations in temperature and precipitation. While the forensics done in this case may have taken local reported weather into consideration, without a rain gauge and thermometer at the dump site, a margin of error must come into play. Given the analysis was done on evidence that had grown or evolved over 178 days, even a tiny 1% margin of error would be nearly two days.

The real significance of the report is that is supports the body being placed in the area within days after death and not moved around one or more times over the ensuing months as has been postulated on this and other sites. I have little doubt that the authors of the report would agree that the 19th or 20th are well-supported by their analysis.

Recent posts Bond and I worked on show that the likely time decompositional fluids leaked into the trunk - based on actual area temperature records - was around 3:30 PM on the 20th. This assumes the time of death was sometime between 3 and 4 PM on June 16, which is well supported by cell phone and computer use evidence as well as testimony from George and JG.

Bond presented compelling evidence in one of his recent posts that the body was dumped at the location on June 20 - as opposed to June 18 or June 24. IMHO the rumored forensic botany and entomology evidence bolster support for the June 20 theory.

 

[gillian]

i dont understand why a paver would be put out where a body was dumped.
who wouldt realize that if a body was found the paver could link them... and converesly (if it wasnt put w caylee) who just randomly wanders way int the woods to dump a paver when waste mgmt will pick it up on garbage day??

:waitasec:

Perhaps she was using it as some kind of marker in case she needed to go back to the site or as a marker to direct someone else to it. Just a thought.

 

[anthrobones]

Thank you for responding BondJamesBond. I took note of this after watching NG last night (09 JAN 09). I went looking on that thread to see if it was discussed but I only saw one or two posts that said suggested that he has discussed the presence of terpenes before.

I know a lot of posters don't put much weight into what LP has to say, but, I for one, usually just can't make sense of what he says, I don't discount it though.

Here is the reference from the NG show:

"PADILLA: Well there, is something else. There is something else. They find terpenes in that car anywhere in the trunk, that`s going to lead them to put the car right at the scene. "

and...

"PADILLA: Well, it`s a residue or a -- that`s given off by certain Florida area and also available in other areas but if they find terpenes, that means that the car wasn`t just up on the roads. It was down in the forest or the weeds or close by. So it`s a situation where there`s no doubt they already know if they have them or they don`t have them. But if they have them that puts the car real close to the scene, rather than just out on the road..."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0901/09/ng.01.html

I just thought it was interesting to note because it might/might not prove to be a link back to KC. I'm not much of a sleuth but I do remember cases (watched on tv) where the crime was solved with the help of plant matter, seeds, and residues from plants and trees.

I am assuming that he means that resin from a certain type of tree was on the car. The sticky sap you seen on pine bark (and some other trees) contains terpenes. I'm not sure if Palm also emits sap like this, but since it is an evergreen I would assume so. Anyone know?

 

[newbie64]

Using forensic botany it is possible to show that Casey was in the woods (where the remains are found) by finding soil with pollen that she could have trailed to the Pontiac.

The bag may have some grains of soil that are foreign to the wooded area and can be traced back to the A's yard.

The fact that we now know that roots were growing through the remains can show how long the remains were in that area. If they were moved or not.

There are many possibilities.

If I had to bet money I would bet your above statments will be exactly what is presented at the trial.

 

[newbie64]

One thing I don't get about LP and the turpines - HOW could you get a car down in that brush? From the photos it looks like there would have been no way that a car would have gotten in there.

I wonder if something - turpenes, soil- was found on the boots in the pontiac and this can be traced back to the scene of the body.

 

[Sammi99]

http://www.rsxtaci.com/Caylee/197712.jpg

http://www.rsxtaci.com/Caylee/196641.jpg


The first photo is where I believe they found the bag and skull, it is between the palmettos and roots and based on where the green shoots of the palmetto are I believe that marks where the water was at its highest level and the square footage of the area the water covered made it inaccesible for the months. Also note from the back how completely covered in palmettos the area was.

 

[Kat]

I can't get the two last .jpg's to come up sammi99

 

[Sammi99]

I can't get the two last .jpg's to come up sammi99

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I just tried them from the post and I can get them. I'll see if I can post it differently.

 

[Sammi99]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I just tried them from the post and I can get them. I'll see if I can post it differently.

I hope these work better


http://http://www.rsxtaci.com/Caylee/197712.jpg


http://http://www.rsxtaci.com/Caylee/196641.jpg

 

[Jay D]

I hope these work better

First two worked fine for me also.
But seein's how I'm here anyway, I really have questions about pinpointing the date of bag disposal using the forensics described in this thread so far. I will say that I watched NG last eve, so am familiar with what was stated. I didn't hear anything about how the body sealed in 1 or 2 plastic bags would factor in though. If the body was sealed in a bag on the 18th, (Just picking a random date here), and placed in the trunk, how would the forensics be any different if the bag was removed from the trunk 10 minutes later or 6 days later? How would the forensics be different (now 6 months later) if the bag/s ripped open one week later. One month later? 5 months later? I can see how forensics can be used to prove that the body had not been moved since it was placed sometime mid to latter June. I just don't see picking an exact date it was placed there, especially in light of it being in plastic, maybe very well sealed, partially sealed, or not sealed at all.
It appears to me to be a case of trying to make the forensics match other clues.
I dunno, Maybe I'm dense.

 

[Kat]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I just tried them from the post and I can get them. I'll see if I can post it differently.

Thank you Sammi99 I can see them clearly. Wow, those palms cover the ground almost completely. What is the name of that plant? Saw palmetto?

 

[BondJamesBond]

FWIW, IIRC, in the previously released reports on the Pontiac, soil found in the trunk was taken into evidence. I have always assumed the soil would be from G&C's...however, I hafta admit I don't have any better explanation for it coming from G&C's than it coming from the disposal site.

In the original doc release (400pgs) IIRC, LE commented on the suspicious "depression" near G&C's pool and, IIRC, George agreed with this assessment. Now, Cindy explained it away in the Greta interview as being the result of moving the hibiscus, AND she said she didn't think there were any alerts by the cadaver dogs in that corner. Perhaps George's "agreement" was something like, "Yes, I see what you mean..." and then he/Cindy went on to explain the hibiscus move story and that didn't make it into LE's report. My recollection may be off a bit, perhaps others can correct/fix where I am.

The forensic report on the shovel, IIRC, did not find any remarkable evidence. IOW, no sign of contact w/ Caylee. Additionally, the shovel showed no visible signs of even being used as evidenced by no new dirt, etc. IIRC.

Casey having the shovel around an hour to an hour-and-a-half plus soil recovered from the trunk has always led me to believe she started to dig in the G&C's backyard in very loose soil, but, aborted the idea. And/or Casey bagged up some loose soil from G&C's backyard (i.e. where the hibiscus had been was easy digging) with the thought she could dump the soil on top of the bag/body where she was taking it...perhaps taking advantage of a naturally occurring "hole". Sorta like a lazy way of burying the body that would mean she wouldn't hafta dig at the disposal site. This would be the forensic botanists dream, I would guess...even though much would be affected by Faye flooding...I imagine there might be remnants of the soil still there.

All of the aerial shots of CSI in G&C's backyard excavating show the area between the playhouse and the sandbox as having the survey flags (I assume to mark spots of interest or cadaver dog hits, or outline same). Cindy also confirmed on the Greta interview there were cadaver dog alerts in this area.

I've spent too many hours staring @ 195831.jpg. I believe I see some items that appear to be something like a...hard to describe... milk crate-type make-up. I saw a pic on the "Floorplan" thread looking into G&C's garage and they have some plastic storage racks that have this kinda design. This design is used in plastics construction to reinforce a part to make it stronger without making it solid or heavy...kinda honeycomb-like. It also reminds me of the design you sometimes see in a "flat" of plants when you buy them as seedlings. I was curious when I saw them if Casey just found some potting soil from G&C's shed to accomplish the lazy-burial described above.

...not exactly intending to converge all of this to a point here...I'm just re-thinkin' out loud regarding soil-related activity in the backyard...maybe it'll spur some productive thought...

 

[Sammi99]

Thank you Sammi99 I can see them clearly. Wow, those palms cover the ground almost completely. What is the name of that plant? Saw palmetto?

Yes, TM was taken to the scene and he reported that the bag and skull was tucked right under one of those palmettos. He said when they were there to search, that area was waterlogged and he made the decision to call off the search so they wouldn't accidentally push the remains further into the mud. Right now I just watched Geraldo and the one of the defense people was talking about how that area was not wet in the video the PI's shot or when the MR found it, but hopefully an expert for the prosecution will explain that these areas get swampy in the rainy season/summer and then dry out when rainy season is over.

 

[Sammi99]

FWIW, IIRC, in the previously released reports on the Pontiac, soil found in the trunk was taken into evidence. I have always assumed the soil would be from G&C's...however, I hafta admit I don't have any better explanation for it coming from G&C's than it coming from the disposal site.

In the original doc release (400pgs) IIRC, LE commented on the suspicious "depression" near G&C's pool and, IIRC, George agreed with this assessment. Now, Cindy explained it away in the Greta interview as being the result of moving the hibiscus, AND she said she didn't think there were any alerts by the cadaver dogs in that corner. Perhaps George's "agreement" was something like, "Yes, I see what you mean..." and then he/Cindy went on to explain the hibiscus move story and that didn't make it into LE's report. My recollection may be off a bit, perhaps others can correct/fix where I am.

The forensic report on the shovel, IIRC, did not find any remarkable evidence. IOW, no sign of contact w/ Caylee. Additionally, the shovel showed no visible signs of even being used as evidenced by no new dirt, etc. IIRC.

Casey having the shovel around an hour to an hour-and-a-half plus soil recovered from the trunk has always led me to believe she started to dig in the G&C's backyard in very loose soil, but, aborted the idea. And/or Casey bagged up some loose soil from G&C's backyard (i.e. where the hibiscus had been was easy digging) with the thought she could dump the soil on top of the bag/body where she was taking it...perhaps taking advantage of a naturally occurring "hole". Sorta like a lazy way of burying the body that would mean she wouldn't hafta dig at the disposal site. This would be the forensic botanists dream, I would guess...even though much would be affected by Faye flooding...I imagine there might be remnants of the soil still there.

All of the aerial shots of CSI in G&C's backyard excavating show the area between the playhouse and the sandbox as having the survey flags (I assume to mark spots of interest or cadaver dog hits, or outline same). Cindy also confirmed on the Greta interview there were cadaver dog alerts in this area.

I've spent too many hours staring @ 195831.jpg. I believe I see some items that appear to be something like a...hard to describe... milk crate-type make-up. I saw a pic on the "Floorplan" thread looking into G&C's garage and they have some plastic storage racks that have this kinda design. This design is used in plastics construction to reinforce a part to make it stronger without making it solid or heavy...kinda honeycomb-like. It also reminds me of the design you sometimes see in a "flat" of plants when you buy them as seedlings. I was curious when I saw them if Casey just found some potting soil from G&C's shed to accomplish the lazy-burial described above.

...not exactly intending to converge all of this to a point here...I'm just re-thinkin' out loud regarding soil-related activity in the backyard...maybe it'll spur some productive thought...

I have spent hours staring at 195831.jpg and am quite familiar with it. Where do you see the honeycomb-like pattern? I never thought of the possibility that Casey may have used soil from the A's to cover the bags. That would be great if she was lazy enough to contaminate that area from soil from the A's home instead of digging. Anyway, I'm curious about the plastic in the photo.

 

[Pink Panther]

I have spent hours staring at 195831.jpg and am quite familiar with it. Where do you see the honeycomb-like pattern? I never thought of the possibility that Casey may have used soil from the A's to cover the bags. That would be great if she was lazy enough to contaminate that area from soil from the A's home instead of digging. Anyway, I'm curious about the plastic in the photo.

Can you post a link to this particular photograph???

 

[Sammi99]

Can you post a link to this particular photograph???

It's the one that has been exhaustively analyzed over on the crime scene photo thread.


http://www.rsxtaci.com/Caylee/195831.jpg

 

[Pink Panther]

It's the one that has been exhaustively analyzed over on the crime scene photo thread.


http://www.rsxtaci.com/Caylee/195831.jpg

Oh ok, I hadn't realized that it was the same one. Thanks for answering Sammi!

 

[BondJamesBond]

I have spent hours staring at 195831.jpg and am quite familiar with it. Where do you see the honeycomb-like pattern? I never thought of the possibility that Casey may have used soil from the A's to cover the bags. That would be great if she was lazy enough to contaminate that area from soil from the A's home instead of digging. Anyway, I'm curious about the plastic in the photo.

OK...you MADE me do it, Sammi99. I updated to show the honeycomb (not a great description, but, you'll see what I mean) as well as some other items. I'll carry this over to the Crime Scene Photos thread as well 'cause of the other stuff that's not related to botany.

Also noted some landscape edging as you'll see. May or maynot be related to G&C's...although missing landscape edging there by the playhouse would be most intriguing...:waitasec:

ETA: I failed to highlight a milk crate located just above the "honeycomb" description box.

 

[BondJamesBond]

...with the cadaver dog alerts in close proximity to the sandbox...I'm liking the earlier suggestion that sand from it (or perhaps mulch) made its way to the disposal site.

 

[Paintr]

FWIW I just finished reading B Bass' book 'Beyond the Body Farm'. In it he makes a comment (I am recalling this so not a direct quote) that when searching for a dead body, they often look for the plants to have grown higher or faster because the decomposing body fertilizes the soil. So a patch of higer plants is a place they would look at closely.