Forensic Botany

[Woe.be.gone]

Hi woe.be.gone the most simple explanation that I could find about what terpenes were is the following:

"Terpenes: Terpenes are organic compounds consists of hydrocarbons, found mainly in conifers. Terpenes have strong characteristic odors."

http://www.motherherbs.com/herb-glossary.html

Now, I do not have a degree in Chemistry. In fact I haven't had a college level chemistry class since 1991.

I have been reading trying to figure out exactly what they are and can only find that they are many things once they are distilled from the plant.

But I don't think the reference was to distilled terpenes (say for instance the the pine fragrance from pine sap we use in cleaning ) but rather the terpenes that occur when a plant is crushed or sap is released by injury and transfer is made to whatever caused that injury.

I'm still looking into what it may or may not mean. LP did not say they had found them only that IF they find them.

Chemistry has never been my thing but I do like plants. Like a lily, a hibiscus flower has a stamen that, apparently, holds the sap that produces terpenes (if damaged?) It sounds like an oil. Also it has to do with reproduction making it identifiable back to the species? LP did not confirm they found terpenes? He was hyphothesizing? I wonder if we'll see any more evidence reports released any time soon? (these are my thoughts/not facts) Fact = a hibiscus flower feels sticky and releases pollen.

 

[clannad]

THE MISSING PART FROM GRETA'S TOUR OF THE ANTHONY'S BACKYARD WHERE CINDY TELLS ABOUT THE PLANT BEING MOVED.

IT'S ABOUT 7 MINUTES IN-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuytbDbzIOk&feature=related

Thank you so much for posting the link to the missing part from Greta's tour.
I've been trying to find a picture of the Anthony's pool filter for the past week, and I finally found it at the 7:52 mark on the above tape.

I'm working on a possible diatom transference theory between the Anthony pool, yard, the location where Caylee was found, and clothing found or taken as evidence, and needed to see what type of filter they use for their swimming pool.

I'm not sure if my theory will fly, but if the Anthony's use DE (diatomaceous earth) in their filter, I'm pretty sure that forensic scientists can/and may have tested Caylee's bone marrow to rule out drowning.

In addition, because Caylee's remains had been submerged under water for a period of time, I'm also wondering if diatoms had been found at the recovery site, and if so, is it possible those specific diatoms were also found on Casey's boots or in the car? (I think diatoms can only be found in or around water, so I'm not sure how diatoms from the recovery site can be linked. But, it might be possible...right?)

At the 7:52 mark on the above link, it looks to me like they do use a DE filter.
(it would be the dark thing with the handle on it) The problem I'm having is it looks like there is a lighter color object in front of the filter and I'm not sure if it's a reflection, artifact or another piece of pool equipment.

What does everyone else think the lighter object is?

Please feel free to blow my theory out of the water (no pun) It's been driving me crazy for a week now.

(the diatom testing for possible pool drowning will not work if the Anthony's have a sand filter. It will only work for a DE filter or Cartridge filter if they use DE for the cartridge)

 

[Kat]

I am interested in hearing your theory clannad. I had forgotten about diatoms and how they will migrate quickly to the bone marrow of a drowning victim.

 

[Kat]

At the 7:52 mark on the above link, it looks to me like they do use a DE filter.(it would be the dark thing with the handle on it) The problem I'm having is it looks like there is a lighter color object in front of the filter and I'm not sure if it's a reflection, artifact or another piece of pool equipment.

What does everyone else think the lighter object is?

<Respectfully snipped for space>

Are you talking about the light colored thing sitting directly in front of the filter system? If so, I went back and viewed the few seconds prior to the scanning and they showed that side of the house. There is a rain gutter that goes down the side of the house. If you go full screen at the mark you said, it looks to me as if that is an additional piece of guttering that connects to the rain gutter on the side of the house in order to run the rainwater off to another area instead of right there where the spout ends.

 

[Bev]

Clannad, that is an excellent observation. What we are observing in this case is the application of the (relatively) new discipline of forensic taphonomy. Taphonomy means burial laws and it's the study of the fate of biological remains. That science has been around for some time, but a subfield, which is now considered its own discipline is forensic taphonomy - how burial laws can aid in investigatory work in LE. It assists both the medical examiner and the crime scene investigator in determining the affect that burial, decomposition, exposure and dispersal has on a particular environment.

When a body is introduced to a new environment, it is bringing with it its own micro environment and with that introduction of a new environment it will bias the biology, the geography, the fauna, the botany and the entomology and impact the environment. By measuring and assessing that impact, forensic taphonomists can assist LE in determining the length the body was there, the condition of the body when it was first introduced to the environment and at what rate the body decomposed.

Clannad's theory is very interesting because it is possible to measure the impact that pool chemicals could have on the decomposition and the environment. The transference of any variable is extremely important and that is why the LIBS is so important to this case. It can measure at the atomic level the organic and inorganic elements brought to the body disposal site and how it affected the site itself.

 

[BondJamesBond]

At the 7:52 mark on the above link, it looks to me like they do use a DE filter.
(it would be the dark thing with the handle on it) The problem I'm having is it looks like there is a lighter color object in front of the filter and I'm not sure if it's a reflection, artifact or another piece of pool equipment.

*snipped*
I spent the last 30mins searching the forum and the eBay link I found to the item(s) Lee purchased for the pool are no longer available to view...grrrr. It was reported that he purchased some items for the pool...perhaps a filter, skimmer, etc....couldn't find anything else detailing what may've been purchased. In the "Time to Drain the Anthony's Pool" thread there was some discussion 'bout whether Lee purchased a cartridge filter or something else (i.e. DE). Sorry...wish it were more help.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

*snipped*
I spent the last 30mins searching the forum and the eBay link I found to the item(s) Lee purchased for the pool are no longer available to view...grrrr. It was reported that he purchased some items for the pool...perhaps a filter, skimmer, etc....couldn't find anything else detailing what may've been purchased. In the "Time to Drain the Anthony's Pool" thread there was some discussion 'bout whether Lee purchased a cartridge filter or something else (i.e. DE). Sorry...wish it were more help.

I remember that discussion too (when I was a lurker). In the hopes of being useful, I was going to look for that/those posts. I'll look, just in case I see something you didn't. Like proof reading!

 

[clannad]

Thanks everyone Bev, I'm glad that I wasn't driving myself crazy on something that was way off base...lol

Kat, I have to look at the "picture" again, but if you stop the tape at the 7:52mark, and look straight towards the filter, it looks like there is a light color thing in front of the pool filter which looks like it may be attached to the pump? I looked at a whole bunch of pool filter pictures and there are no filters or pumps that look like the one the A's have. I'm wondering if the light thing is pool equiptment or some kind of light reflection?

The following is a link to a pool and pump site. I don't see anything that looks like those 2 things together, but maybe someone else will be able to see a filter that looks like the A's. With the exception of that light thing, I think their filter looks to be a DE filter, but I could be wrong.

http://www.cheappoolproducts.com/Pool~Filters_15~supplies.html

James, thanks for spending the time to look on ebay for the pool stuff Lee purchased. That was a lot of help and I appreciate it I'll see if I can find additional info on the "time to drain the pool" thread.

I found a few good links on diatoms if anyone is interested in reading up on them.

http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=112803&org=NSF

http://www.icfmt.org/vol3no3/publication.htm

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g124154173611258/

http://www.svazi.com/v1/forensic/diat_intro.htm

http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/2794.htm

Bev, is it possible to link diatoms to a pool using a sand filter? I didn't look into diatoms and sand filters, but I really hope that it would be possible to check for diatoms in that case as well.

 

[Bev]

I have no idea, Clannad, but now you have me intrigued, I'm going to take a look at your research, thanks!

 

[clannad]

Bev, Thank You! LOL...my head is spinning from information overload, so I'm really glad you're intrigued!

If the A's have a sand filter, I just found something that they "may" use in their sand filter that would replace the sand. Zeolite! Now I'm wondering if the zeolite in one persons swimming pool, would be the same or different in anothers pool. Does anyone know?

 

[cocoamom]

Hi everyone,
I had an email conversation with my biologist/scientist son today. He is very smart when it comes to these scientific biological things but I don't get a lot of em. He usually can explain it in simple terms for me to understand. Today I asked him about "turpenes" - evidently they are geographical and long distances may be needed for comparisons to show anything - at least that's what he gave me. I don't know what LP is indicating (I really do like him) but sometimes he gets a little carried away and maybe he was speculating like I do here sometimes!

The son doesn't realize that matching to a particular hibiscus bush is what we are hypothesizing here! He doesn't follow the case very closely! Here's the email (addresses omited and you have to read from the bottom up - sorry!):

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mom-
You wont be matching it to a single TYPE of plant, youd be matching it to A plant with DNA, very impractical and improbable. Also, the turpine signature of plants 20 houses down is most likely 100% the same as the signature at the site. Unless one of the sites being compared used mad crazy Miracle Gro fertilizer every single day, the two sites, 20 houses apart are going to be virtually indistinguishable by turpine comparisson.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bud:
That's what I think they are trying to do!!!

So, if they found the body in the woods just 20 houses down and found "turpenes", what would they try to match turpenes to in the back yard? If nothing then would they see something in the woods (visible, not microscopic) that would send them to the back yard of the house 20 houses down? Something like, hey - we found this hibiscus flower with the body and now we can match it to the hibiscus bush in the back yard? Or bamboo? or something?

It might just be speculation that the turpenes have anything to do with it unless you can see a way that they would forensically fit in?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buddy

Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:29 PM

To: mom
Subject: Re: turpenes??question



No, and plant DNA wouldn't do you any good unless you were trying to match a sample to an EXACT single plant


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do they carry a plant's DNA?
Thanks again, mom



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Buddy
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:04 PM
To: mom
Subject: Re: turpenes??question


You could probably use them to narrow down a region. Probably not within the same state. ie. if one sample of turpenes was collected in FL it would show say a high concentration of certain turpenes from pine trees, you could match that to similar concentrations of the same kind of turpene in other areas, say Montana or whatever. You can't match within the same general region b/c they will have the same levels of turpenes (ex. trees in Orlando will have the same level of any given turpene as ones in Cocoa).

Here is a link, the summary may help you understand them a little

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terpene


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Bud,

In really dumbed down English for me can you describe what plant turpenes are and if finding them and testing of some kind you can match them to a plant in another location by like plant DNA or something? Is is just like plant sap or what? Why would it be forensically important to the Caylee Anthony case where her remains were found in the woods and investigators spent time in their back yard?

Thanks for your time~ mom

 

[Ripley007]

*snipped*
I spent the last 30mins searching the forum and the eBay link I found to the item(s) Lee purchased for the pool are no longer available to view...grrrr. It was reported that he purchased some items for the pool...perhaps a filter, skimmer, etc....couldn't find anything else detailing what may've been purchased. In the "Time to Drain the Anthony's Pool" thread there was some discussion 'bout whether Lee purchased a cartridge filter or something else (i.e. DE). Sorry...wish it were more help.

Bond-Made the seriously bad choice to step away from this site for a week. Still, I kept up with nightly with Nancy and Greta reports...but, they've got nothing on WS!!! It's like watching "live" TV with a 3 day delay!

Anyway, struggling to play catch-up. But re: ebay. Closed auctions are available to see for only two weeks (used to be 4). However, MANY times, google captures info no longer available at the ebay site. Try a google search for Lee's user name or for a specific item you think he may have purchased and you may find what you're looking for. Also, I know there are sites that track online sales including ebay. You may have to pay a small fee to access their tracking info. Also, keep checking his Ebay FeedBack as this will give you more info on items recently bought or sold. I believe a buyer or seller has like 90 days in which to do this. Once FB is left, you will then have an ebay item number to use in either an ebay or google search. Hope this helps.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'm asking this off topic question here, if one cannot find a post that contains specific information, is it possible it has been removed from this site because it contains specific information?

 

[Ripley007]

I'm asking this off topic question here, if one cannot find a post that contains specific information, is it possible it has been removed from this site because it contains specific information?

I really new here so this will be like the blind leading the blind, but if you can't find a particular post, try looking in a spot called "The Parking Lot". Accessed from the home page. Some of the more contriversial posts get sent there due to content.

 

[magic-cat]

I'm asking this off topic question here, if one cannot find a post that contains specific information, is it possible it has been removed from this site because it contains specific information?

Yes that is not only possible but probable depending upon the type of information. If it is someone's personal info who has been cleared by LE or is under NO scrutiny and is not a "public" player in the case, then it will be removed.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Yes that is not only possible but probable depending upon the type of information. If it is someone's personal info who has been cleared by LE or is under NO scrutiny and is not a "public" player in the case, then it will be removed.

Thanks Magic (and Ripley too). Is that the only reason or could something be removed because it became evidence?

 

[JBean]

bumpity bump for woe.be.gone

 

[Harmony 2]

Background Information

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToRbA2y-9jc[/ame]

http://www.cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100764.pdf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Pg.4/10456- Entomology report lists small and large botanicals found in trash bag in trunk

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf



LIBS report page 20 http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19801995.pdf lists limonene and pinene under TST- Compounds identified in trash bag contents from Florida trunk? YES (limonene)

Terpenes (one source is from vegetation)


Then in this Email from Dr. Vass three months before the remains were found he opines that limonene and pinene products suggest disposal in a marshy area.


-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D


We know that Caylee's remains indeed were found in a shallow, marshy, swampy area as Dr. Vass had predicted. I am wondering if this can be used at trial to tie Casey to the remain's site. Anyone know what the small and large botanicals were?



(Note: I am a Speech Pathologist.... not a Botanist.)

 

[treeseeker]

Harmony, I think the brownish item on top of the foil packet might be one of the botanicals? I know there are better pics than these, I'll try to find them:

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/040609casephotosset2/1/lg/6.htm

 

[Harmony 2]

I am a little perplexed by what appear to be discrepancies in the docs. In my post above #138 it is noted that botanicals were found in a trash bag. These items were tested by Hall and Vass. In the recent doc dump there is a bench note stating botanicals were found in a trash bag.

page 254 http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2010/0521/23631365.pdf

However, the list of items found in the trash bag does not have plant material or botanicals listed.

The list is on page 23 and 24 of this document: http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18...overy.com/files/18530237.pdf&ecid=AFF-7975437


When going back and looking at the initial processing this information is found:

Page 9 http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18...overy.com/files/18530237.pdf&ecid=AFF-7975437

Note the New York tag #.

Yet in the doc dumped recently it has this information on pages 48 and 99:

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2010/0521/23631365.pdf

Note the Florida tag# for Casey's Pontiac.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It makes sense that plant material would adhere to the chassis of a vehicle if parked in an area with tall grass but whose vehicle had the botanical material on their chassis? It is difficult to tell from the information in the documents.

Photos of Suburban Drive:

http://www.foxnews.com/images/478761/0_63_320_121108_greta_caylee_scene.jpg

photos #10, 11 and 12

http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/18311691/detail.html

Was the plant material found in the trash bag, on Tony's vehicle or Casey's vehicle? :waitasec: