France - Machine Gun attack on magazine Charlie Hebdo #1

[Momoffourboys]

It's wrong since Holder was not there.

Don't shoot the messenger:gaah:

 

[jillycat]

Didn't the French confirm the link to AlQaeda??


Top Obama military adviser: No al Qaeda link to Paris attacks

http://thehill.com/policy/international/229143-paris-gunmen-have-not-yet-been-linked-to-al-qaeda

Yemeni al-Qaeda claims French magazine attack
Security tight in Paris as al-Qaeda figure says Charlie Hebdo shooting was meant to show France limits of press freedom.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europ...rench-magazine-attack-201511073656841867.html

While I don't think it's yet clear who these killers were or exactly how they were supported, or if they were actually deployed, it's important to remember that the administration's preferred narrative on Islamic terrorism is that aQ is relatively dismantled and these attacks we are seeing are of the "lone wolf" version. The 'lone wolf" theory is critical to the narrative because we are leaving Afghanistan and the appearance of victory over aQ is a top political goal.

I don't intend to make this a political debate, but given the nature of the assault on Paris and who is involved, as well as the emerging news about the Syria factor, it's all but impossible to discuss the attack outside of geopolitics. It is, ultimately, a geopolitical issue and global threat. JMO

 

[SStarr33]

This whole situation is starting to sound familiar to pre WW2 times when many of the European leaders ignored / appeased Hitler, thinking he would only go so far, until it finally dawned on them that he would keep going and they had to do something to stop it. I for one feel like we have been LIED to by our leaders, I think they have hidden the Islamic threat from us, after allowing that threat to grow because they think we, the ordinary citizens will provoke the situation in a direction they do not want, meanwhile they sit on their hands not knowing what to do.



From what I am reading so called extreme Islam (or rather, Islam in it's purest form) has a political agenda that is not hidden, but has been dismissed or minimised for reasons which I cannot understand, and while that has been the case they have made some major in-roads.

Our problem now is home grown terror, not terror coming from overseas. Also we should not forget that the motivation is to make everyone live under Shari'ah law, so a magazine insults the prophet, then the cartoonists shall be punished according to Shari'ah law, since the law of the land is not Shari'ah then those that imposed it shall be punished by the nations laws, as we have seen here, but to the fundamentalists it is still a victory, because they know that the fear will stop others from acting in the same way, and slowly western countries begin to adapt themselves to Shari'ah purely out of the wish to live peacefully.

Also 'terror' is just a by product, it may seem like the goal, but the goal IMO is punishment and deterrent for breaking Islamic laws.

BBM, yes they have tried to hide it, but those of us who looked beyond their words have known about this for years.

And when we tried to tell people, we were called nut jobs, Islamophobes and bigots.

 

[SStarr33]

Don't shoot the messenger:gaah:

LOL, no way--I appreciate the list. I wonder if we can verify if the others were really there. I wouldn't know the majority of them if they were standing right in front of me.

 

[Boytwnmom]

is that "they" are superior and need to be in charge and impose their will as only they possess the requisite qualities. Very similar to the Nazi's, white supremicists and similar. It's us against them mentality where one side must win. There is no coexistence.

I think part of the problem is the sensitivity to religious freedom. Especially in the US. But I think we have made a critical error. Islam is, for many millions of people, NOT just a religion, but a political ideology. I'm sure people can argue that Christianity is the same and would like to impose Christian law. But that is not what has happened even though Christians are a majority in the west. Islam is a much more integrated idea. And in most Muslim counries there is no difference between church and state. All is religiously governed. Not because of it being "imposed" either but through a mutual understanding that Islam compels all affairs to be conducted pursuant to it's law. That is a huge difference between Muslims and other religions (yes, Israel is somewhat different but that is a whole seperate history). I think this goes to the polling results I saw with such a large majority of Muslims in western countries identifying first and foremost as Muslim rather than as British, French, American. This is the type of info that is essential to understanding the terror problem. But it is the type of info that is deemed too sensitive and uncomfortable to acknowledge. That's where we the people come in. We can force our governments to go there.

I know we all hate the Nazi reference. But we need to learn from history. What happens when you appease those who share an ideology which must necessarily end in your death or submission. Yes, there are moderate Muslims. But even they often hold beliefs incompatible with the values of a free society. That's fine. As long as they agree to live under and accept our values. But the fact is many don't. A large majority wanted to see the Danish cartoon people punished. Even US Muslims, the US, where we have a much braoder free speech right than in most European countries and one enshrined in our constitution, in the US, a majority don't believe in the right to criticize Islam or Muhammed.

Wenzel Strategies (2012): 58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment.

Where are the Imams and Muslim leaders leading their followers to accept, respect, enjoy western freedoms? There are two possibilities here-either they can and will do so if needed or they can't as to do so would truly not be in accord with their Islamic values. We kind of need to know this. If ultimately there is little hope of peaceful integration we need to figure out an exit strategy. I never used to believe in political correctness. In that it really existed. It was just being kind, accepting. Things weren't reported and in the news because they weren't newsworthy. I feel duped. I don't like feeling duped. I am firmly committed to dealing with reality. But we all need to acknowledge reality and not hide it out of misplaced sensitivity. People are dying according to a plan.

I was just reading the START web site. Not sure how good/thorough it is but it does have data and is university based: http://www.start.umd.edu/about/about-start They have a Global Terrorism Database: http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/ that you can use to slice & dice info, create charts etc. I made this chart of Muslim Terror:




Lots to learn.

This whole situation is starting to sound familiar to pre WW2 times when many of the European leaders ignored / appeased Hitler, thinking he would only go so far, until it finally dawned on them that he would keep going and they had to do something to stop it. I for one feel like we have been LIED to by our leaders, I think they have hidden the Islamic threat from us, after allowing that threat to grow because they think we, the ordinary citizens will provoke the situation in a direction they do not want, meanwhile they sit on their hands not knowing what to do.



From what I am reading so called extreme Islam (or rather, Islam in it's purest form) has a political agenda that is not hidden, but has been dismissed or minimised for reasons which I cannot understand, and while that has been the case they have made some major in-roads.

Our problem now is home grown terror, not terror coming from overseas. Also we should not forget that the motivation is to make everyone live under Shari'ah law, so a magazine insults the prophet, then the cartoonists shall be punished according to Shari'ah law, since the law of the land is not Shari'ah then those that imposed it shall be punished by the nations laws, as we have seen here, but to the fundamentalists it is still a victory, because they know that the fear will stop others from acting in the same way, and slowly western countries begin to adapt themselves to Shari'ah purely out of the wish to live peacefully.

Also 'terror' is just a by product, it may seem like the goal, but the goal IMO is punishment and deterrent for breaking Islamic laws.

 

[leah]

Thank-you Waddles for the great pictures. Watched it on TV, and the crowds were amazing, must have been surreal being there. What a beautiful country France is.

 

[SStarr33]

AP Exclusive: Witness to Paris officer's death regrets video

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-01-11-12-50-36

Mir said he left the video on Facebook for as little as 15 minutes before thinking the better of it and taking it down.

It was too late.

The footage had already been shared across the site and someone uploaded it to YouTube. Less than an hour after Mir removed the video from his page, he was startled to find it playing across his television screen.

From your link:

"The iconic nature of the imagery - rebroadcast again and again - has anguished Merabet's family. His brother Malek told journalists Saturday: "How dare you take that video and broadcast it? I heard his voice. I recognized him. I saw him get slaughtered and I hear him get slaughtered every day."

Some argue that the video plays a useful role by exposing terrorists' heartlessness. Mir said that one official told him the video helped galvanize French public opinion."

I agree with the useful role part. I never used to watch any real life bloody videos or look at any of the photos until I realized not looking made it seem like something out of a novel--not real life.

Now I force myself to look every time because it reinforces to me that real evil does exist.

I am sorry that the family has to see the horrifying images, though.

 

[faw720]

Personally, I don't think it's appropriate to slander or otherwise abuse any religious belief. However, I also firmly believe in the freedom of the press. I'm not sure how the idea of "you must believe exactly as I do, think exactly like I do" got started. The world has different faiths, different customs, & IMO all should be respected. What I cannot condone is cruel murder & terror, using faith as an excuse. In all actuality, a cold blooded killer has no religion other than hate. JMO

 

[Boytwnmom]

question as to responsibility, except perhaps for which precise Muslim extremeist group did this. Are we seriously going to play this game in the US? It is insulting to the victims as well as our intelligence.

I don't know if the French security services said it, but the terrorists themselves did. They said to some of their hostages that they were al Qaeda, and there was also some evidence that two of them had spent time in a training camp in Yemen.

 

[SStarr33]

Waddles, if you are still here, I have a question for you. Have you ever heard of No Go Zones in France or elsewhere in Europe? I just learned about them yesterday and most of the sites that talk about them have a political bent, so I am not sure if it is real or not. Basically, they are areas where only Muslims go and their laws are followed in those areas.

 

[Zuri]

I think today's gatherings to show solidarity with Paris are truly amazing (apparently our pres.did not agree, as, he sent "someone" in his place). However, I cannot help but think...what good is this if each leader returns to his/her country and does not make changes or support those who are pushing for reform?

If the US President or Vice President were there, the security risk to the masses and other foreign leaders would have been astronomical. Do you have any idea how assassinating the leader of the free world would play out in the terror cells and other radical groups? Very glad they did NOT go as the harm that could befall the innocents would be irreparable.

 

[SStarr33]

question as to responsibility, except perhaps for which precise Muslim extremeist group did this. Are we seriously going to play this game in the US? It is insulting to the victims as well as our intelligence.

We play it every time. Why would this be different?

 

[Footwarrior]

While I don't think it's yet clear who these killers were or exactly how they were supported, or if they were actually deployed, it's important to remember that the administration's preferred narrative on Islamic terrorism is that aQ is relatively dismantled and these attacks we are seeing are of the "lone wolf" version. The 'lone wolf" theory is critical to the narrative because we are leaving Afghanistan and the appearance of victory over aQ is a top political goal.

I don't intend to make this a political debate, but given the nature of the assault on Paris and who is involved, as well as the emerging news about the Syria factor, it's all but impossible to discuss the attack outside of geopolitics. It is, ultimately, a geopolitical issue and global threat. JMO

It is reasonable to assume that the attack was inspired by ISIL or Al Qaeda or perhaps both. It's a lot more difficult to prove it was in fact directed or supported by either of these terror organizations.

We do know that ISIL put the magazine publisher on a hit list in it's online magazine. One of the brothers who attacked the magazine offices and the man who attacked the kosher grocery apparently knew an Al Qaeda member when they were in prison and may have met with him after release. But determining that this was an Al Qaeda or ISIL plot will take a lot more investigation. The good news is that the French police are rather skilled at this kind of police work.

 

[Colin de France]

According to Minister of interior the total today is 3.7 Million ....

 

[SStarr33]

If the US President or Vice President were there, the security risk to the masses and other foreign leaders would have been astronomical. Do you have any idea how assassinating the leader of the free world would play out in the terror cells and other radical groups? Very glad they did NOT go as the harm that could befall the innocents would be irreparable.

Disagree. He went to Mandela's funeral. Here is a list of folks who were there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dignitaries_at_the_memorial_service_of_Nelson_Mandela

 

[CuriousGuy]

Eric Holder.

http://www.npr.org/2015/01/11/376496274/eric-holder-heads-to-paris-in-wake-of-charlie-hebdo-attack

:facepalm:

 

[Boytwnmom]

as it will just make enough people angry they will simply arrive at their own simple decision to, for example, want all Muslims gone. If the government refuses to acknowledge a problem and work with their citizens to address it, you will see movements like in Germany today. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/anti-muslim-pegida-movement-rattles-germany-a-1009245.html and you end up with what they are calling (and I don't know enough about to say whether they are extremists or just frustrated citizens) right wing extremists. I say that because the article seems very mainstram PC and critical of the protestors in a way calcuated to ignore the Islamist element:

Where does this new nationalism, dressed up as patriotism, come from? "Disenchanted citizens with right-wing sympathies" are unable to cope with the social change of the last few decades," says Alexander Häusler, an expert on right-wing extremism in Düsseldorf.

I think a later paragraph may be closer to the truth:

Many citizens apparently believe that politicians and the media are treating an important issue -- the effects of immigration on society -- as a taboo.

Actually, this may, because of German history, not be the best example as their circumstances are unique. But, also, their government is therefore less likely to articulate any issue with Islam given Nazi history. But you can only lie by ommission for so long. The larger point being, governments can't afford to ignore this topic any longer, both for the actual terror consequences as well as for the fact that the threat is NOT diminishing, people are noticing and the ruse of "rogue" elements left from disrupted groups is just about up.

And there it is. It's no longer about being complacent, it's become a willful denial of the facts.

 

[Zuri]

Disagree. He went to Mandela's funeral. Here is a list of folks who were there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dignitaries_at_the_memorial_service_of_Nelson_Mandela

Can't remember if Obama walked out in the open in South Africa along with throngs of other leaders. Yes, I remember he was there.

 

[bettybaby00]

Disagree. He went to Mandela's funeral. Here is a list of folks who were there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dignitaries_at_the_memorial_service_of_Nelson_Mandela

IA. but what's more insulting and inconceivable to me is that its just dawning on me that Holder had already been scheduled to go to Paris prior to the planning of this rally.

Jan. 8th--Washington (CNN)In the aftermath of the horrific terrorist attack at the offices of the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, Attorney General Eric Holder will travel to Paris, France, to attend an International Ministerial meeting on Sunday ...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/08/politics/eric-holder-goes-to-paris/index.html

so the reality is no one was sent to participate today; no one from the US was sent to offer our country's support to the people of Paris by standing with its citizens against these terrorist attacks which are becoming more, and more commonplace.

shameful and deplorable.

MOO

 

[Mrs G Norris]

While I don't think it's yet clear who these killers were or exactly how they were supported, or if they were actually deployed, it's important to remember that the administration's preferred narrative on Islamic terrorism is that aQ is relatively dismantled and these attacks we are seeing are of the "lone wolf" version. The 'lone wolf" theory is critical to the narrative because we are leaving Afghanistan and the appearance of victory over aQ is a top political goal.

I don't intend to make this a political debate, but given the nature of the assault on Paris and who is involved, as well as the emerging news about the Syria factor, it's all but impossible to discuss the attack outside of geopolitics. It is, ultimately, a geopolitical issue and global threat. JMO

I think the whole 'Lone Wolf' idea is a bit of a fallacy, and what has happened is that instead of the big events like 911, extremists have realised that small attacks by smaller cells, or individuals against unlikely civilian targets can have just as much effect and are harder to detect in advance, and therefore more likely to be 'successful'.

Expert warns every place where people live and work becomes a target of “retail terrorism”