FW

  • #121
Brefie said:
I think maybe you didn't mean to agree with me, but rather sissi.

WHY, when LE will not clear JR & PR should they be shown consideration? They are murder suspects! Don't tell me you think Scott Peterson should have been shown more consideration before he was arrested??

John and Patsy lost a daughter, for sure - but they also might very well be guilty and while LE will not clear them, they are fair game. IMO.
Yes you are right, sorry about that Brefie, Sissi.

Sorry I don't know a thing about Scott Peterson. I do know about that Lindy Chamberlain case however. After their baby disappeared, presumably taken by a dingo, she and her husband were absolutely crucified by the media and anyone else who was itching to have someone to focus their hate on. I always thought it was appalling that not only should she and her husband have their beautiful little daughter who was loved and adored taken from them in the cruellest of circumstances but also to be persecuted by the law, the media and the people as being the murderers and actually sacrificing her by slitting her throat!

And just to remind everyone, they were found to be innocent of the crime by the Supreme Court some many years later after new evidence came to light and a highly distinguished medical 'expert' from the mother country was thoroughly discredited at a subsequent trail, not to mention several instances of very shonky local police forensics.

No, I don't agree that they are fair game, they just might be innocent.
 
  • #122
Tricia said:
You see AussieSheila that is where we disagree.

The Ramseys have not only hindered the investigation they have tried to destroy innocent people. I have zero sympathy for them.

All of my sympathy goes to JonBenet.
Yes, but Tricia it is only YOUR OPINION that the people you say the Ramseys have tried to destroy are innocent people.

It is MY OPINION that the Whites have hindered the investigation and have tried to destroy innocent people.

And my sympathy goes to JonBenet AND her parents.
 
  • #123
aussiesheila said:
Yours is an extremely sad story and I am very sorry for you and your family. Every person is an individual and I don't think you can expect every one to react to similar life events in the same way. I do however, think that some abused women behave the way I described. I don't know for sure that Patsy was abused. What I do know is that her behaviour is very, very odd and has to be explained somehow. Maybe she wasn't abused. Maybe she suffers from a personality disorder. I think that is another possiblity.

Can you provide a link of any real case that involves a mother, who was allegedly abused as a child, allowing her own child to be used by pedophilia rings?
 
  • #124
aussiesheila said:
Yes you are right, sorry about that Brefie, Sissi.

Sorry I don't know a thing about Scott Peterson. I do know about that Lindy Chamberlain case however. After baby disappeared, presumably taken by a dingo, she and her husband were absolutely crucified by the media and anyone else who was itching to have someone to focus their hate on. I always thought it was appalling that not only should she and her husband have their beautiful little daughter who was loved and adored taken from them in the cruellest of circumstances but also to be persecuted by the law, the media and the people as being the murderers and actually sacrificing her by slitting her throat!

And just to remind everyone, they were found to be innocent of the crime by the Supreme Court some many years later after new evidence came to light and a highly distinguished medical 'expert' from the mother country was thoroughly discredited at a subsequent trail, not to mention several instances of very shonky local police forensics.

No, I don't agree that they are fair game, they just might be innocent.

No apology necessary, for me anyhow.

I don't know about the Chamberlain case. But I am just trying to point out that whomever (whoever?) is considered to be under an 'umbrealla of suspicion (sp? - jeez brain not working well this am) by LE should be fair game for a discussion forum.

Let's not forget that nobody has been arrested in this case, so if the key players who have not been cleared are not fair game - who is?
 
  • #125
hollyjokers said:
Can you provide a link of any real case that involves a mother, who was allegedly abused as a child, allowing her own child to be used by pedophilia rings?
Sorry hollyjokers, I can't. I am not familiar enough with the literature to post any links of any real cases that show how any mother who was abused as a child behaves with respect to her own children.

While I do not think that most abused women behave in this way I think Patsy did. It is a theory. It might be correct, it might not be. I think Patsy is a very self-obsessed woman, I think possibly she might even have a personality disorder. I think her needs were of prime importance to her, not her children's. I think it would be in character for her to have treated JonBenet in this way.
 
  • #126
Brefie said:
No apology necessary, for me anyhow.

I don't know about the Chamberlain case. But I am just trying to point out that whomever (whoever?) is considered to be under an 'umbrealla of suspicion (sp? - jeez brain not working well this am) by LE should be fair game for a discussion forum.

Let's not forget that nobody has been arrested in this case, so if the key players who have not been cleared are not fair game - who is?
I'm having brain problems too. I think I thought you meant 'fair game' as in attacking them, condemning them etc which I don't agree with. But 'fair game' as in subjecting to scrutiny and analysis, that's OK.
 
  • #127
aussiesheila said:
I'm having brain problems too. I think I thought you meant 'fair game' as in attacking them, condemning them etc which I don't agree with. But 'fair game' as in subjecting to scrutiny and analysis, that's OK.

Hmmmm. I DO think they are open to scrutiny, although I am sure I am guilty of attacking them. I *think* I am usually careful about what is my opinion and stating that it is only my opinion, but I am sure if you look, I have stepped over the line. When I discuss it rationally with a poster such as yourself, I am way more careful and articulate, but when I discuss with a poster who will not give an inch on what is most definitely 'iffy' about Ramsey behaviours, I know I get carried away.

I do believe that there is a whole family cover up. I actually think that Burke caused her death and JR and PR are covering for him. I also think that the fact that they wouldn't sit for an interview for four months is absolutely 100% disgraceful.

So as for condemning them - I am definitely guilty. I think that their behaviour after the murder - regardless of their guilt or innocence - makes them fair game for condemning. There is no other story like this one where I have ever heard of such behaviour from parents who insist they are innocent.

If only this board were made up of people like you and I (yeah, I did just toot my own horn a little, but yours too :D) who can have totally differing opinions and discuss instead of bait.
 
  • #128
hollyjokers said:
Can you provide a link of any real case that involves a mother, who was allegedly abused as a child, allowing her own child to be used by pedophilia rings?
I am sure I could. Very often mothers who were abused as children are the same mothers that stand by and do nothing & sometimes participate when their own children are being sexually abused.
 
  • #129
Linda7NJ said:
I am sure I could. Very often mothers who were abused as children are the same mothers that stand by and do nothing & sometimes participate when their own children are being sexually abused.

I *thought* that it was more likely that an abused person would later go on to abuse. To allow is to abuse, IMO. I know I will be corrected if I am wrong, but please, I have worded carefully to avoid an attack.

BTW, I do not think that Patsy allowed JBR to be abused.

I have never heard of any mother allowing her children to be abused by a 'ring'. I am full sure that it happens, but cannot recall one instance.
However, from statistics I have heard in the past, I would think that a mother allowing this to happen to her child was likely to have been abused herself.
 
  • #130
aussiesheila said:
I think Patsy was pressured into covering up by the pedophiles themselves. She was closely connected to some of them and I imagine they had a powerful hold on her. I do not think that this makes Patsy a monster. I do not think Patsy is a monster, they are your words. I think Patsy was a victim of sexual abuse herself. She had been mentally affected by the abuse in her own childhood was incapable of stopping her daughter's abuse. IMO Patsy is to be pitied, not condemned. As far as I am concerned pageants have got nothing to do with this case.

I have no opinion re whether Patsy was herself abused in childhood, but I do think it's very obvious the evidence was all "planted", "staged", and that no guilty people would stage evidence incriminating themselves!

It's all as simple as that, imo. The staged evidence pointing to them actually proves there was someone else. Maybe a lot more than one someone elses. Guests at the party on the 23rd are noticeably absent and lying low. There had to be something strange about that party.

Marilyn Van De Bur (sp?) has children now? Anyone know? She's the one I believe reported that she'd been sexually abused in childhood. Yet she's not a monster. Not that any statistics would prove anything about any certian case. PR's certainly not a monster either, but as a lot of us have said previously, it seems someone had a very powerful hold on her and on all the "friends". If she's covering up, so are they all, about what was happening at the party on the 23rd.

My hunch is that JonBenet was spunky enough to try to call 911 and that the phone was snatched away from her, or the hangup button hit, and a cover story for that was invented. Who ever heard of turning away police at your door, or rather at someone else's door? What the heck was going on there? And someone who wasn't pictured may have been there. May even have suggested group pictures thinking that would prove he wasn't there, judging by someone's thinking planted evidence would convict the victims. (I agree with several of us that PR must have been awfully gullible, and trusted someone too much, but so did the whole gang. The parents weren't the only ones.)

"If, if, if" the mastermind, possibly using someone else he could completely control, to do the deed was motivated by an obsession about beauty queens, remember that someone waited until Vanessa Williams was a winner to reveal a youthful mistake of hers so that she'd have to step down. Why isn't he still doing this to all of them? Probably because he'd get caught and blow his cover by doing it too many times. Just another outside-the-box thought for consideration. Whoever brought that up about Vanessa, and I can't remember what it was, surely had to have known it before she became a winner but waited, maybe even exerted some subtle influence to make her the winner. That was so sadistic. She's a sweet girl and has won some success in spite of that. It probably would have ruined some peoples' lives, health, etc., forever. There may be worse truths about all the other contestants. Maybe the malicious accuser thought that doing that to one would also cast suspicion on all the others. Maybe Vanessa even knew who was behind it, but, like Patsy and all the friends, she's also not telling. Carl Rove (?) is in trouble for supposedly "outing" someone, though it really doesn't sound like he even knew what she was.
 
  • #131
The staged evidence pointing to them actually proves there was someone else. Maybe a lot more than one someone elses. Guests at the party on the 23rd are noticeably absent and lying low. There had to be something strange about that party.

That's somewhat the conclusion I have come to about that Christmas Eve evening when JBR was murdered. I have come to the conclusion that the Ramseys got into something "way over their heads" and JBR's death resulted from it. Remember Patsy said "We didn't mean this to happen."
 
  • #132
Brefie said:
I *thought* that it was more likely that an abused person would later go on to abuse. To allow is to abuse, IMO. I know I will be corrected if I am wrong, but please, I have worded carefully to avoid an attack.

BTW, I do not think that Patsy allowed JBR to be abused.

I have never heard of any mother allowing her children to be abused by a 'ring'. I am full sure that it happens, but cannot recall one instance.
However, from statistics I have heard in the past, I would think that a mother allowing this to happen to her child was likely to have been abused herself.

The only instances I can think of this happening is if the mother is being abused by her partner, & is too overwhelmed herself to stop the abuse of the child, or going back to the days of slavery when a slave could do nothing to stop the abuse of her child. I just can't make the leap from either of those situations to Patsy handing JonBenet over to a pedophilia ring because she was intimidated by someone. If the Ramseys are innocent, then their whole problem in this mess is that they would not be intimidated by "kidnappers", BPD, or the FBI. They were above it all.
 
  • #133
BrendaStar said:
That's somewhat the conclusion I have come to about that Christmas Eve evening when JBR was murdered. I have come to the conclusion that the Ramseys got into something "way over their heads" and JBR's death resulted from it. Remember Patsy said "We didn't mean this to happen."

That's about the smartest post I have read in a long time.
 
  • #134
That's about the smartest post I have read in a long time.

Thanks. :blowkiss:
 
  • #135
I know from experience that mothers do cover for abusers. My husbands first wife was abused many years by her father as were her sisters. None of this came out until years later ,when her son by a previous lover (that my husband adopted) was found out to be his wife and HER FATHERS Son. He had to be told because the son was trying to have a baby. Needless to say my husband and their biological children were in shock. My husband came to find out that her mother knew of the abuse and the incest.The strange and sad part is that his wife left their daughter in the care of the grandparents and as my husband found out the grandfather molested his daughter(his own grandaughter). Now this man was an old man at this point,but still felt the need to molest his grandchild.He did spend some time in jail due to my husband pursuing this. The other strange thing is that at this mans funeral all of his family attended and his daughters were in tears.
My point is these things really do happen and some women will cover it up. I think part of it is denial.I wonder if Patsy did see JR or JAR acting suspiciously(incest) but because of her background or the stress she was living with (cancer) did not really want to believe,
I also want to agree with Tricia about FW,the only suspicious behavior that day was the R,s.
 
  • #136
I find it interesting that the ones called to the home on the morning of the 26th have laid low.
 
  • #137
I find it interesting that the ones called to the home on the morning of the 26th have laid low.

I always found it suspicious that they called all their "friends" that morning so they could have their fibers and dna all over everything. Who would have a coffeeklatch when their daughter is missing and they have a ransom note threatening to cut off her head? Those "friends" just conveniently wiped the kitchen counter clean.
 
  • #138
BrendaStar said:
I always found it suspicious that they called all their "friends" that morning so they could have their fibers and dna all over everything. Who would have a coffeeklatch when their daughter is missing and they have a ransom note threatening to cut off her head? Those "friends" just conveniently wiped the kitchen counter clean.
My recollection is it was the advocates who went around wiping things off after the fingerprinters went through. BUt I could be wrong.
 
  • #139
tipper said:
My recollection is it was the advocates who went around wiping things off after the fingerprinters went through. BUt I could be wrong.

That's my understanding, too. I think I read it in ST's book.

I still think that the reason they were invited over was to contaminate the scene, though.
 
  • #140
Quote from BrendaStar:
"I have come to the conclusion that the Ramseys got into something "way over their heads" and JBR's death resulted from it."

That's the smart part ... maybe it included people called over to the house on 12/26 ... maybe not.
 

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