"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

[Brini]

Although lying might be one way of trying to set up a kidnapping scenario, I think I understood that Princess Rose was looking for something more; like an anticipated ransom demand -- phone call or something like that. As I recall, there was something about a script, instructions and a promise to return the child. Still, the only source of this was KC. Perhaps underlying this somewhat strident "discussion" is the concept that there needs to be "independent corroboration" for some types of evidence? Well, the statement of a co-conspirator implicating another co-conspirator would need independent corroboration. However, a statement of the principle perpetrator doesn't necessarily need independent corroboration. Therefore, there doesn't need to be a real ransom note. Besides, we already know that the kidnapping story was a lie and we agree on that. (At least, I think we do.)

Thanks for the clairification, Themis!

We DID get a phoney TPC from the dead child, "from a private number."

The jury won't like that, either.

This babe is either guilty as Satan, or has the greatest talent for self-incrimination of any criminal, ever. She might JUST as well wear a sign! "I am either a murderess, or I am diligently working at setting myself up."

 

[Brini]

Well I'm personally on the fence about alien abduction from Martian Nannies myself. Sorry that was an unnecessary joke, but felt a need for some humor.

Might as WELL be a Martian as Zanny the Invisinanny and her non-existent sister Sam. If we get into the Blanchard Park kidnapping scenario, there's also the notorious Sippy-Cup Gang. :doh::crazy:

 

[Themis]

I would say a false official report to LE of a kidnapping IS the setting up of a false kidnapping scenario.

I also think that by claiming kidnapping, thus letting the FBI in the door under the Lindburg law, KC, yet, again, gave an example of her non-existent planning skills.

The woman can barely plan a trip to the bathroom!

The point is which came first, the chicken or the egg. The kidnapping was not "set up" like pre-planned and executed (to prove premeditation). If the killing was more spontaneous but still premeditated by grabbing duct tape and smothering her (the act of grabbing, ripping off strips and covering the mouth would have taken time to have the specific intent to cover the child mouth and nose with duct tape). If that was the case, then the kidnapping story is a mere cover-up lie. It was not the original plan, just the cover-up after the fact. Which drove which. Was there a staged kidnapping (however poorly) which shows premeditation, or was there a duct tape smothering murder followed by the invention of the kidnapping as a mere cover story.

So, IMHO, the kidnapping was a cover-up; not a set-up. The duct tape came first, but either way, premeditation would be evident in both scenarios.

 

[Searchfortruth]

This could come pretty close to what KC did with Caylee. If she killed Caylee the afternoon of the 16th,or even that morning [depending on GA's story being true] ,she knew she was running out of time to dispose of the body .CA would be coming home.Maybe those phone calls were to find out when she should expect them home .Since no one answered she couldn't take a chance of CA finding her there so she put Caylee in the trunk and went off to meet TL. She probably didn't realize how quickly a body would decompose.That became a real problem.She needed to get rid of the mess fast so dumped her in a convenient spot. Maybe she intended to come back...who knows.But soon the smell became an issue so she had to dump the car ,and quick.I think KC always intended to go back and "clean up" so to speak,but really couldn't figure a good plan out.Like a lot of us do when faced with a big problem....we ignore it.So she put off finding a better place to dump Caylee.She probably couldn't stomach the thought of dealing with all that decomp again.And she just left the car,probably couldn't stomach the thought of dealing with that smell again.
Eventually the gig was up.
Everything still points to KC and the body placement has no connection ,IMO as to wether it was premeditated or not.

This sounds like a good fit with what we know about Casey. She probably didn't know how fast Caylee's body would deteriorate and put off dealing with it. The placement of the remains so close to the home means, IMO, that it was a place she knew and felt comfortable with. She knew the amount of foot traffic through the area and felt sure no one would "stumble" across it. I believe most murderer's place the deceased person's remains in an area they are familar with...mother's who kill, place their children's bodies close to home, they say.

 

[Themis]

Thanks for the clairification, Themis!

We DID get a phoney TPC from the dead child, "from a private number."

This babe is either guilty as Satan, or has the greatest talent for self-incrimination of any criminal, ever. She might JUST as well wear a sign!



The jury won't like that, either.

Now, now. Haven't you ever heard of a seance in a medium's parlor? I hear these days they are doing them from private number calls on cell phones! :crazy: Just a change in technology, I'm sure. Aren't you? :crazy:

 

[marspiter]

The Sippy-Cup Gang is representing the East Coast.

Yeah I think our gang task force here has some info on them. Weren't they originally a prison gang if not I guess they will be? :behindbar

 

[Brini]

BBM

Exactly!

When the prosecutor's office makes a charge, jobs and reputations are put on the line. Going for an expensive death penalty conviction is a huge expense and risk.

My opinion is that prosecutors are more likely to wimp out than to overreach.

Yes, that is usually the case. Otherwise, the voting public is likely to show up with little chairs and dunce caps, after the DA's office is exposed as idiots at trial.

Many cases don't go to trial at ALL, because although the perp is known, the DA's office deems that evidence is lacking.

 

[Searchfortruth]

The point is which came first, the chicken or the egg. The kidnapping was not "set up" like pre-planned and executed (to prove premeditation). If the killing was more spontaneous but still premeditated by grabbing duct tape and smothering her (the act of grabbing, ripping off strips and covering the mouth would have taken time to have the specific intent to cover the child mouth and nose with duct tape). If that was the case, then the kidnapping story is a mere cover-up lie. It was not the original plan, just the cover-up after the fact. Which drove which. Was there a staged kidnapping (however poorly) which shows premeditation, or was there a duct tape smothering murder followed by the invention of the kidnapping as a mere cover story.

So, IMHO, the kidnapping was a cover-up; not a set-up. The duct tape came first, but either way, premeditation would be evident in both scenarios.

Now this really calls for speculation, but here goes. With what we know about, 10 minute at a time, Casey...I would think the duct tape was used in the murder and the kidnapping story is a "mere cover-up lie". If you look at her past behavior there isn't much planning with any of her crimes, I don't think this murder was that different.

 

[Brini]

This could come pretty close to what KC did with Caylee. If she killed Caylee the afternoon of the 16th,or even that morning [depending on GA's story being true] ,she knew she was running out of time to dispose of the body .CA would be coming home.Maybe those phone calls were to find out when she should expect them home .Since no one answered she couldn't take a chance of CA finding her there so she put Caylee in the trunk and went off to meet TL. She probably didn't realize how quickly a body would decompose.That became a real problem.She needed to get rid of the mess fast so dumped her in a convenient spot. Maybe she intended to come back...who knows.But soon the smell became an issue so she had to dump the car ,and quick.I think KC always intended to go back and "clean up" so to speak,but really couldn't figure a good plan out.Like a lot of us do when faced with a big problem....we ignore it.So she put off finding a better place to dump Caylee.She probably couldn't stomach the thought of dealing with all that decomp again.And she just left the car,probably couldn't stomach the thought of dealing with that smell again.
Eventually the gig was up.
Everything still points to KC and the body placement has no connection ,IMO as to wether it was premeditated or not.

Also, that little patch of ground was under water, when she tossed the bag.

Out of sight, out of mind. Maybe she thought the bag would be washed away, somewhere. Who knows?

It's hard to read KC's mind. It's like trying to use one of those archaic 8 MB computers. (Just dated myself and others) (Please forgive).

 

[Themis]

Also, that little patch of ground was under water, when she tossed the bag.

Out of sight, out of mind. Maybe she thought the bag would be washed away, somewhere. Who knows?

It's hard to read KC's mind. It's like trying to use one of those archaic 8 MB computers. (Just dated myself and others) (Please forgive).

It's okay. I started on "dirty purples."

 

[Brini]

Remember KC's reaction at the jail when she was told the body was found -- remains -- skull and scattered bones. KC's apparent reaction was to double over. Usually, doubling over is sign of stomach problems -- like an unsettled stomach that might retch. Can you imagine what KC's last memories were of Caylee with the badly decomposing body? Enough to make her retch? Enough so the mere recall of it -- triggered by finding the body -- could have re-triggered a retching reaction? This could be physical evidence that KC was directly involved with the decomposing body. This involuntary physical response is triggered by memory. Maybe those tapes are important.

Maybe so. When she viewed OTHER "potential discoveries" of the body on TV, she wasn't fazed. Like JP's "discovery" in Blanchard Park. She saw it on TV, and didn't raise an eyebrow.

Also, as some of the talking-head shrinks opined, the reaction she had was an anxiety attack-- not a grief reaction.

 

[Brini]

This sounds like a good fit with what we know about Casey. She probably didn't know how fast Caylee's body would deteriorate and put off dealing with it. The placement of the remains so close to the home means, IMO, that it was a place she knew and felt comfortable with. She knew the amount of foot traffic through the area and felt sure no one would "stumble" across it. I believe most murderer's place the deceased person's remains in an area they are familar with...mother's who kill, place their children's bodies close to home, they say.

Amazing! Florida in high summer. A semi-tropical enviornment. Prolly the speedy decomp capital of the US. Maybe after Louisiana.

 

[Themis]

Maybe so. When she viewed OTHER "potential discoveries" of the body on TV, she wasn't fazed. Like JP's "discovery" in Blanchard Park. She saw it on TV, and didn't raise an eyebrow.

Also, as some of the talking-head shrinks opined, the reaction she had was an anxiety attack-- not a grief reaction.

Good points. Excellent points, in fact. I was just thinking out loud today.

 

[Flossie JMO]

Jmo, it was premeditated and an act of rage, just a matter of time before she worked up the stones to do it, and the reaction to the discovery of her poor little body was anxiety and fear she would be caught. I don't think Caylee was drugged.

 

[Amil]

Also, that little patch of ground was under water, when she tossed the bag.

Out of sight, out of mind. Maybe she thought the bag would be washed away, somewhere. Who knows?

It's hard to read KC's mind. It's like trying to use one of those archaic 8 MB computers. (Just dated myself and others) (Please forgive).

Do you have a link to prove the area was underwater in June 2008?
I live in Orlando and know that the tropical storm Faye didn't arrive until after the middle of August.
I doubt that area was underwater in June.
http://www.ouc.com/business/Orlando Weather Comparison June 2008.pdf

 

[Brini]

Do you have a link to prove the area was underwater in June 2008?
I live in Orlando and know that the tropical storm Faye didn't arrive until after the middle of August.
I doubt that area was underwater in June.
http://www.ouc.com/business/Orlando Weather Comparison June 2008.pdf

That's what the neighbors said. That it was underwater, IIRC.

But, if I'm mistaken-- please disregard post.

 

[Wudge]

Now this really calls for speculation, but here goes. With what we know about, 10 minute at a time, Casey...I would think the duct tape was used in the murder and the kidnapping story is a "mere cover-up lie". If you look at her past behavior there isn't much planning with any of her crimes, I don't think this murder was that different.

Correct. To conclude the duct tape was the mechanism of death or the cause of death is speculation -- juries are not permitted to speculate.

 

[Amil]

That's what the neighbors said. That it was underwater, IIRC.

But, if I'm mistaken-- please disregard post.

I believe it was said it was underwater in Aug and Sept.
After Kio, psychics and others may have provided info that "she's close to home".

http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache...uly&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

 

[MAMABEAR]

Oh ok I see Themis' response and that makes some sense. She lied about it but did not physically set up a false kidnapping. It's still deceit no matter how you shake it though especially at a point when your daughter is "missing" and authorities are involved.

I still don't git it. It is a lie one way or the other. She even said she had NY plates/Sawgrass/name.

 

[MAMABEAR]

Setting up a false kidnapping scenario would include pre-planning and possibly actions that would lead police to believe that the child had been kidnapped along with a story.

In Casey's case, it seems she just pulled the ZFG story out of the air when confronted by Cindy. I don't see that she thought out ahead of time how to make this look like a kidnapping nor had she planned to claim it was a kidnapping. I don't think Casey thought her mom was going to catch up to her and put her in a position where she was forced to come up with a story.

In contrast, in Susan Smith's case, she rolled her car into a lake with both boys inside, then told police that she had been carjacked and that the unsub had taken off with both of her sons. She got on national TV and cried and plead for their return, she gave interviews, she had a well thought out story that was only discredited by the fact that the traffic light she claimed she was carjacked at would not turn red if there were no other cars around - that's what gave her away. But it's that kind of detail, that the average person would not have known and she had no way of knowing. Up until she was caught in this lie she acted the role of the mother of a kidnapped child.

KC taped her baby's breathing passages---threw her in the woods in trash bags---said the nanny had her---and told her mother to tell nanny that she forgave her---just bring Caylee home. I just don't see the difference.