GA: Deborah (Debbie) Collier 10 Sept 2022 autopsy implies foul play

[asmi106082]

But if she inhaled the super hot gases, wouldn’t her lungs contain soot?? But they didn’t? MOO

 

[Seattle1]

But if she inhaled the super hot gases, wouldn’t her lungs contain soot?? But they didn’t? MOO

Not necessarily. Signs and symptoms of smoke inhalation can vary widely. I believe they speculated she died in a “flash fire” due to the presence of a nearby gas can. No soot in her lungs is not indicative. Signs in the skin color and soot in the nostrils or throat can also signal the degree of smoke inhalation. I'd be more confident after a second opinion from somebody given all the facts including photos of the body, etc. JMO

 

[fred&edna]

I was definitely in the camp that thought self-harm was out of the question. However, I've never been a huge fan of Dr Baden.

jmo

 

[Cedars]

In her case, I think they'd be able to determine how many pills she took: especially whether she took all the pills that were left in her current prescription...that would certainly indicate intent.

JMO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

^^rsbm

I checked with my BIL, a medical examiner, and he added some needed clarity.

As he explained, without any knowledge of the physical examination, we are only seeing a few words here or the summarized cause of death.

In this case, in the order of importance, DC's cause of death was primarily due to the inhalation of superheated gases [burns your respiratory tract, typically, respiratory arrest, cardiac arrest, and death], Thermal Injuries [skin injuries by excessive heat], and Hydrocodone Intoxication [under the influence of hydrocodone] -- not to be confused with hydrocodone toxicity. And each of the above contributed to DC's death.

When oxygen levels are at:

• 21 percent .... an individual experiences: .... normal outside air,
• 17 percent .... impaired judgment and coordination,
• 12 percent .....headache, dizziness, nausea, fatigue,
• 9 percent ..... unconsciousness,
• 6 percent ..... respiratory arrest, cardiac arrest, death.

IMO, seems we all applied layman's definitions to a medical determination.

I'm not arguing that hydrocodone intoxication could have contributed to the circumstances that caused her death...I'm saying that hydrocode "intoxication " isn't an actual cause of death. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen the actual autopsy reports. Perhaps her cause of death was listed as inhalation of super heated gases and thermal injuries. That would make perfect sense, since both of those things can cause physiological changes to the body which can result in death. Perhaps, somewhere else on the report (not directly listed under cause of death ), the ME made an additional note explaining that hydrocodone intoxication could have been a contributing factor in the circumstances of her death. I've only read the msm reports, so I really don't know. It's also a possibility that journalists misread or misinterpreted what the report actually said.

JMO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

or, Death by Misadventure?

Probably statistically unlikely in we older ladies....

That is also not a "cause of death ".

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Exclusive | Famed pathologist Dr. Baden believes Debbie Collier’s autopsy implies murder

“I think the medical examiner doesn’t understand what forensic pathology is,” Dr. Michael Baden quipped to The Post.

nypost.com

Citing her toxicology report, Baden said about “a little less than half of people would die” from those levels. But if she did die of an overdose, the question of how the fire started remains, he said — and then her cause of death should be labeled “hydrocodone overdose with post-mortem fire injuries.”

 

[Cedars]

I'm not arguing that hydrocodone intoxication could have contributed to the circumstances that caused her death...I'm saying that hydrocode "intoxication " isn't an actual cause of death. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen the actual autopsy reports. Perhaps her cause of death was listed as inhalation of super heated gases and thermal injuries. That would make perfect sense, since both of those things can cause physiological changes to the body which can result in death. Perhaps, somewhere else on the report (not directly listed under cause of death ), the ME made an additional note explaining that hydrocodone intoxication could have been a contributing factor in the circumstances of her death. I've only read the msm reports, so I really don't know. It's also a possibility that journalists misread or misinterpreted what the report actually said.

JMO

Could be.

When I look up the effects of 'hydrocone intoxication' I notice it lists 'short and shallow breathing.' [Hydrocodine Addiction Conditions & Treatment at Pinelands Recovery]

So, as per Seattle1's post above, perhaps the autopsy indicates the cause of death was inability to inhale enough oxygen, due to the combination of burns in the airway, and her lowered ability to breath because of the drug.

Would that be some sort of suffocation?

I notice Dr. Baden is 88, I wonder whether he's as familiar with autopsies involving opiods as modern pathogists, who probably see it every day with the current crisis.

I don't think this would have been the intended result, but perhaps, if that hadn't gotten to her, an OD plus general burns would have...

Perhaps the hydrocone was able to numb the pain. And some people discover, OD is not guaranteed.

Just my uninformed opinion.

 

[phcrider]

Do we have a map of where the “self-immolation “ (which I am highly skeptical of) supposedly began and where she was found down the hill? How far apart were these two places? From what I’ve read her daughter seems satisfied with the suicide theory, not sure about the rest of the family.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Do we have a map of where the “self-immolation “ (which I am highly skeptical of) supposedly began and where she was found down the hill? How far apart were these two places? From what I’ve read her daughter seems satisfied with the suicide theory, not sure about the rest of the family.

If you go back into the earlier threads there are maps links. If memory serves, AB did seem satisfied with the suicide theory but JB did not.

 

[Jade]

Do we have a map of where the “self-immolation “ (which I am highly skeptical of) supposedly began and where she was found down the hill? How far apart were these two places? From what I’ve read her daughter seems satisfied with the suicide theory, not sure about the rest of the family.

I don’t think anyone thinks it was “self-immolation”. Actually catching fire was not anticipated, imo.

The theory is it was an attempt to use the fumes from the paper towels for a smoky fire, which is quick it only takes a few breaths, but a flash fire overwhelmed her as the result of the accelerant including catching her flammable jersey on fire.







All imo

 

[Sundog]

Do we have a map of where the “self-immolation “ (which I am highly skeptical of) supposedly began and where she was found down the hill? How far apart were these two places? From what I’ve read her daughter seems satisfied with the suicide theory, not sure about the rest of the family.

LE seems satisfied with the medical examiner's determination of suicide.

How the family feels is a private matter, IMO.

 

[Seattle1]

LE seems satisfied with the medical examiner's determination of suicide.

How the family feels is a private matter, IMO.

IMO, how the family feels ceases being a private matter when they take their feelings public and voice their concern over the investigation!

Debbie Collier's Son Frustrated by Lack of Answers, Says Sheriff Laughed at Him and Threatened to Hang Up

 

[Jessthinkin]

I think the burns were 100% accidental. If she were trying to end her life, perhaps she'd pictured overdosing on opiates, then hanging out around a "campfire" as she slowly drifted off to a peaceful sleep, then eventually death. And perhaps she did drift off to sleep. But that "peaceful exit" was interrupted by the gas container exploding, which caught her on fire and woke her, and she tried to escape the flames by either crawling/scrambling down the hill, where she was ultimately found. Just my theory, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me....

 

[Donswife48]

I will just add, I never thought DB was suicidal. Did she take the pills, alone, or was she forced or encouraged to take the pills. Did she pour gas on herself, or was it thrown on her, then a match was thrown to lite the fire? Unfortunately, I doubt we will ever know.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I will just add, I never thought DB was suicidal. Did she take the pills, alone, or was she forced or encouraged to take the pills. Did she pour gas on herself, or was it thrown on her, then a match was thrown to lite the fire? Unfortunately, I doubt we will ever know.

Pathologists are able to tell what happened to her and there is substantial video evidence of her activities that day. She purchased the items used at the death scene. She had prescriptions for the drugs found in her system. She wasn't forced to buy those items at the store or to drive to that location, far from her home. Just as she wasn't forced to get fast food on her way there. Her external burns are not the primary cause of death, the (not unheard of) damage to her breathing passages/lungs from breathing in the fumes/hot air from the shirt catching fire, prevented oxygenation, causing suffocation. The events were investigated thoroughly as if it was indeed a homicide. There was zero evidence of anyone else being involved or accompanying her, at the scene or in her vehicle, to the restaurant or the stores, or when driving past traffic cameras.
Those of us that have lost family members to suicide have to reconcile the odd behaviors of the victims and eventually, we do indeed recall the signs that the person was struggling.
Those outside of her immediate family have no access to any of this very personal information, other than what the daughter told us of conversations and tears in her mother's eyes. You're saying "We will never know" but we aren't LE, pathologists, or immediate family. I feel that I do know, based on actual evidence, that it was suicide. Not directed at you, but outsiders denying a suicide can be hurtful to the families of victims. It implies we shouldn't trust the pathologist and LE, in this case, it implies an accusation toward a family member, who was persecuted even after being cleared by LE.
MOO

 

[Argonaut]

I will just add, I never thought DB was suicidal. Did she take the pills, alone, or was she forced or encouraged to take the pills. Did she pour gas on herself, or was it thrown on her, then a match was thrown to lite the fire? Unfortunately, I doubt we will ever know.

I agree.

There is more to the story.

 

[Sundog]

I will just add, I never thought DB was suicidal. Did she take the pills, alone, or was she forced or encouraged to take the pills. Did she pour gas on herself, or was it thrown on her, then a match was thrown to lite the fire? Unfortunately, I doubt we will ever know.

The posts on DC's Facebook page before it was taken down showed a person struggling with feelings of helplessness and depression over several years.

She may have hid it from her family and co-workers, as many do who are suicidal.

May she rest in peace, and prayers for her family and all who loved her.


edited to re-word

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I never thought DB was suicidal.

I agree.
There is more to the story.

Just curious and always concerned about the myths and stigmas associated with suicide, what information made you think she wasn't suicidal and did you know her in a very personal manner?

Unfortunately, even the closest families can't predict or prevent the loss of a loved one. Sometimes they don't recognize signs and clues and believe a "happy" outward appearance rules out suicide. Many of us look at photos of our families, trying to see what we missed.

To claim it wasn't suicide also means not believing the mountain of evidence discovered by LE and the pathologist.
If you don't think it was suicide, are you thinking they are incompetent or intentionally misleading the public and family?

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

If you don't think it was suicide, are you thinking they are incompetent or intentionally misleading the public and family?

I, too, do not know enough about what has not been reported to reason that it was suicide.

But I think there are shades of grey between "incompetence" and "intentionally misleading", i.e., not exactly one or the other.

She may have been depressed or even suicidal at some point (and I am someone who always comes in to remind people that there is no play book or recipe for suicide. People who just got a new job, adopted a dog, planned a vacation, made a hair appointment, had a great call with their sister - can kill themselves) but from my reasoning based on all that has been reported and shared about the people involved and the facts surrounding and supporting how she was found, THIS was not suicide.