GA - Suspicion over heat death of Cooper, 22 mo., Cobb County, June 2014, #3

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  • #581
Uhhhh....no I don't think they can argue it that way. He googles when he realizes the kid is in the car, decides the kid is "probably already dead" therefore he just goes about his work day, makes some calls, works on a couple of projects and decides the body in the car can wait until after work?


I've already seen people trying to make this case. "he looked it up after the fact" etc. It's amazing how defense attorneys will spin details.

I was watching a report on the Darlie Routier case last night and every bit of evidence that was presented by the Prosecutor was spun out in a different way by the defense. The Prosecutor made an interesting point, he said he is bound by the truth, but the defense attorneys are not. They can say whatever they want and they don't have to really prove it.

Consider the Casey Anthony case where they accused her father of sexually molesting her and then never backed up the accusation at all. Their job is to plant a seed of doubt.
 
  • #582
Does anyone know if those were his "normal" working hours? Showing up well after 9 and leaving around 4??

The reason I ask is that IF this was planned did he go into work late that morning so other coworkers would NOT see the kid in the car as they made their way through the parking lot?

Also it sure seems they have video of the parking lot, which is why the police know he visited his car and opened the passenger side door. That means HE knew that too, if he had planned this perhaps he went out to his car at the end of the day and DID notice the strong odor, but "stuck to his plan" and drove off while deciding how to handle the situation (that it was obvious there was something seriously wrong inside the car).

He likely would have been careful to go right out to his car, get in and drive away so as not to look suspicious on the work cameras, but then maybe a mile or so away he started to freak out and pull over because it would be hard to claim he didn't notice the state of the car.
 
  • #583
Agreed. I think it is a certain personality type that is vulnerable to doing this. Not necessarily an inferior personality, as they have definite strengths over people like myself, but I think there's a reason why some of us can honestly KNOW that this would never happen to us.

Quoting to clarify my own post....I DO think priorities and a level of selfishness play into it as well when people forget their kids in cars. So while certain personality types are vulnerable to it, I still don't think it's excusable, and I think they should be punished.
 
  • #584
Does anyone know if those were his "normal" working hours? Showing up well after 9 and leaving around 4??

The reason I ask is that IF this was planned did he go into work late that morning so other coworkers would NOT see the kid in the car as they made their way through the parking lot?

Also it sure seems they have video of the parking lot, which is why the police know he visited his car and opened the passenger side door. That means HE knew that too, if he had planned this perhaps he went out to his car at the end of the day and DID notice the strong odor, but "stuck to his plan" and drove off while deciding how to handle the situation (that it was obvious there was something seriously wrong inside the car).

He likely would have been careful to go right out to his car, get in and drive away so as not to look suspicious on the work cameras, but then maybe a mile or so away he started to freak out and pull over because it would be hard to claim he didn't notice the state of the car.

Yep, I think he drove away hoping to distract them from viewing the security camera in the parking lot because he knew he was on camera from going down there at lunch time.

I doubt if he smelled the strong smell he'd not use that as an excuse as to why he suddenly realized something was wrong. It could be believable if he said

"I just got in the car and started up like usual and then I noticed a smell and it hit me like a ton of bricks, I pulled over and discovered my son." Why not just say that if the smell was so overbearing.

IMO him saying "I heard choking sounds" is what busted him.
 
  • #585
I doubt if he smelled the strong smell he'd not use that as an excuse as to why he suddenly realized something was wrong. It could be believable if he said

IMO him saying "I heard choking sounds" is what busted him.

Yeah but the fact is people do/say stupid things especially when panicking and trying to come up with a story in the last second.

If this was in fact murder then stopping at Chick-fil-A in advance was really twisted. Everyone knows fast food restaurants are loaded with security cameras, to decide to stop in and get video of him and the "happy healthy little boy that was so adored by his Daddy" as further proof of his "innocence" is sickening (but if done intentionally rather smart too).
 
  • #586
First - I do not have a opinion on this case one way or the other. not enough facts yet.

Now, I would like to comment on the smell of death in and around the car. My comments may seem insensitive, but they are not meant to be so.

Cooper was a toddler, not a large person. lets assume that he had been dead for 6 hours. 6:15 at the most. Given the temperature, this would put him in middle stages of rigor, and in the maximum stage of livor. Neither would have an effect on the smell, but would obviously affect the appearance. His body would have been through the "fresh" stage and VERY beginning the "bloat" stage of decomposition. There would likely be no outside (insect) activity, but there would be processes happening within his body that would result in trapped gasses and fluids.

Here is the "insensitive" part...please skip if you like......

imagine about 14 pounds ( the amount of relevant tissue in the toddler - half body weight) of whatever you want to imagine from your butcher shop, and it is loosely wrapped in a very thick plastic wrap. There are two holes in the wrap, the size of a half dollar at the top, the size of a nickel at the bottom. Imagine this package in the car for that time. The smell would be very noticeable, but not horrible or overpowering. Now, grab the package roughly while you struggle with buckles and straps. Pick it up in the center and squeeze and hold it, pulling it out of the car and setting it on the ground, and compress it, etc., etc.

2 minutes later 2 cops can come along and talk to each other. "did you smell the car? go smell the car!" there is no way he didn't smell that!

remember, the toddler's skin would not be decaying. There would be a build up of gasses and fluids, all of which would be expressed during the process described. It would be obvious that the baby was dead from the beginning, but to a parent, babies are sometimes thought to be alive until they are pried from the parents hands.

Now, am I saying that this was an accident? No. because I don't know.

One more comment:

Behavior after loosing a child in not logical. It is never the same for any 2 people. I lost a son. when I found out, my mind kept playing tricks on me. I kept trying to rationalize what had happened. I literally took hours for it to sink in. I cried. I paced. I cleaned his room. I had a strong appetite. I heard voices. I called a plumber to fix a toilet that had been running on for weeks. I didn't sleep for 2 days. after 40 hours someone pried a shirt of his that I had been gripping in my left hand without knowing it. People didn't recognize my voice on the phone because the stress changed my voice. I would sometimes literally forget to breath, but I walked the dog every hour.

so, my second point:
Activity after he found out his son was dead could be totally illogical. Unless he purposefully killed him. So, if you asked me based on what I have experienced (including 36 years as a nurse): Is it possible that he realized at noon or 4 that he had accidently killed his son, and then innocently did a lot of irrational things afterward?

yes, it is possible.

First, I'm so sorry about your son. You have my deepest sympathy, I can't begin to imagine.

Re the bolded by me in your post: I think 'innocently' would depend on whether you believe he didn't realise Cooper was in the car until the end of the day. I don't, I believe he had remembered much earlier in the day - just prior to his lunchtime visit to the car in fact. You're right, everyone reacts differently to bereavement and yes, irrational thoughts, words and actions are very common but some people can also retain a certain degree of cool-headedness and remarkably clear thinking. I don't doubt that this man was probably not entirely rational and grief would play a large part in that but guilt/fear of consequences/self-concern would also be considerable factors in his case. I'm not talking normal bereavement guilt such as "I wish I hadn't fought with him before he died" or "I wish I could take what I said back" - I'm talking the guilt of knowing one effectively caused a death through some action or inaction as in this case. Add to that a somewhat heightened degree of craven-hearted concern for his own skin and I see his later histrionics as, yes, irrational-appearing but very much exaggerated and affected for public edification rather than 'innocent'.
 
  • #587
Quoting to clarify my own post....I DO think priorities and a level of selfishness play into it as well when people forget their kids in cars. So while certain personality types are vulnerable to it, I still don't think it's excusable, and I think they should be punished.

I think the biggest problem in these cases is that the idea of it is so terrifying that most people are freaked out at the idea that it could happen to them. That level of terror makes them view the situation through a great deal of emotional bias.

The truth IMO is that I would bet someone forgetting their kid in the car in total innocence has maybe happened once or twice over time. In an extreme example of absolute forgetfulness or confusion with who put the kid in the car.

However in reality we constantly hear stories of parents who were caught leaving their child in the car when they went shopping. It happens all the time. The reason is that the parent feels that the child is sleeping, knows that the child will likely conk out for an hour or so and don't feel like dealing with waking them up. They take it as a break.

Once they get in the habit of doing this, they are playing with fire. Compare it to letting your kids swim in the pool unsupervised. When a parent is vigilant at first but then gets into a comfort zone that "it's not going to happen to them" they slack off more and more over time. THAT is what causes the eventual death of the child. But no parent is ever going to admit that this ISN'T the first time they have done this. And when accidents happen they aren't going to admit that they didn't really "only leave him for a minute"

I'll share an example of my own. I left my 10 month old and my 3 year old in a tub filling with water. The phone rang and I walked literally around the corner into the kitchen and picked up the phone. I started talking for a MINUTE and then remembered and ran back into the bathroom and 10 month old had slipped under the water and was face up staring under the water and I yanked him out in terror. The 3 year old was just sitting there watching him drown. That was a MINUTE. And it could have been worse. But it really was a MINUTE. When I hear stories of parents saying "I only left them for a minute!" I think they are flat out lying and minimizing the time they left them.

Like the case of the mother who found her son drowned in the washing machine, she tried to say she only took her eyes off him for a few minutes and I just do not believe them. They stopped watching them for 5-10 minutes, 15 minutes, 30 minutes etc. And so this "myth" is something that needs to go away.

Every day parents who don't want to deal with their kid will leave them unattended to take a break from them. Like the one I mentioned before about my friend "having a cigarette break" as my 3 year old and her five year old climbed out a 4th floor window and down the fire escape to the second floor and the children only being discovered by the downstairs neighbor who ran up pounding on the door to let her know. I do not believe these stories.

IMO the majority of parents who leave their kids in cars have absolutely 100 percent done it or something equally negligent before. And it's time we start prosecuting them so that at least that threat will make them take it seriously.

I don't believe that most of these stories are one time horrible accidents. I think they are evidence of a slack attitude and parents who do not prioritize their children's safety above EVERYTHING else.
 
  • #588
Christi Paul ‏@Christi_Paul 13m
#BREAKINGNEWS Search warrant just released on case against dad who left son in hot car. Details next @CNN @NewDay
 
  • #589
We live in the South about an hour from town. On the way to a doctors appt, my granddaughter threw up in the car. I stopped at the first grocery store and cleaned up quickly. We drove then to the DR office...and after two hours returned to the car which had also been parked in the sun.

It was immediately nauseatingly apparent that my cleanup had not been through enough. One small area plus the heat and sun over those two hours created a situation that was pretty disgusting. Luckily I still had the cleaning products in the car from the first cleanup.

Don't the bowels often release at death? I think the condition of the poor child...vomit and feces...PLUS the smell in the car, as many of you have stated, just had the police flabbergasted that the Father could have driven anywhere or claimed to have noticed nothing.

It does not have to be a "stench of death." If you have every smelled hot baked vomit after two hours in a hot car, you will understand that is quite sufficient. And yes, some people are more "sensitive" and maybe driving with hot baked vomit is tolerable to some, but, barring a medical condition, that stench is rather undeniably ...noticeable.
 
  • #590
  • #591
We also don't know how clean the car was, it could have been filled with garbage and spilled orange juice and other long term disgusting smells. I agree that there should have been a smell. But just want more evidence before I regard it as a real clue. The graphic post above about how the smell could have gotten worse is valid.
 
  • #592
  • #593
  • #594
  • #595
Oh boy....wow. Why? Poor little baby.
 
  • #596
Doesn't this constitute premeditation? Was he conducting an experiment or something? How horrible and disturbing. JMO
 
  • #597
Did he place a thermometer inside the vehicle at lunch? Did he park the vehicle in full sun, I wonder?
 
  • #598
Doesn't this constitute premeditation? Was he conducting an experiment or something? How horrible and disturbing. JMO

Depends on what else they find...if they have enough to prove it. imo
 
  • #599
So did he offer the info on the search results, or did LE confront him about them?
 
  • #600
So now to believe in an "accident"...we have to add to the list...

In how many previous cases are there these qualifications:


There is "forgetting."

Then there is "forgetting after a very short interval."

Then there is "forgetting after a very short interval when you have just had physical interaction with the child."

Then there is "forgetting after a very short interval when you have just had a physical interaction with the child and he is awake WHEN FORGOTTEN.

Now there is forgetting after a very short interval when you have just had a physical interaction with the child and he is awake when forgotten...and you are so obsessed with fear of this type of thing happening...that you have been googling it.

How often are all those circumstances present in a valid case of innocent "forgetting?" Id like to know some statistics.
 
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