GA - Suspicion over heat death of Cooper, 22 mo., Cobb County, June 2014, #6

[MissJ]

Androgel is prescribed for impotence.

A side effect is that it can decrease sperm count.

I thought so..but wasn't sure if any new literature showed something different. Thanks.:twocents:

 

[SStarr33]

Well, if you look at the case as whole, IMO he DID do nothing. A brief moment of CPR on a corpse and yelling at other people to call 911 and making calls, isn't really doing anything. Again, JMO.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I am happy to change my opinion once all of the evidence is in. You never know, maybe the person offered to do CPR because they were in the medical profession.

 

[MissJ]

Maybe it was something else...waiting for a mistress to come out of the woodwork next.

Yeah my ex was one of those. Too busy with his GF to handle things at home.:moo:

 

[Lyra500]

No. It is not the same thing. Looking it up and reading a page about it, Is one thing. If they spent hours on it looking at all the sites, that is different.

I look up things all the time but I research very few.

The wording of the reports suggests they did far more than 'look up' about children in hot cars. The wording suggests that they looked at the temperature required for a child to die in a hot car. I honestly cannot think of an innocent or logical reason for why anyone would need to know that.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/warrant-cobb-toddlers-dad-researched-child-deaths-/ngT3H/

The Cobb man accused of leaving his toddler son in an SUV for seven hours researched child deaths inside vehicles, according to new documents obtained by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
Justin Harris has been held without bond at the Cobb County jail since the night of June 18, hours after 22-month-old Cooper Harris was declared dead in a shopping center parking lot. In addition to murder, Justin Harris has also been charged with second degree child cruelty, also a felony.
“During an interview with Justin, he stated that he recently researched, through the internet, child deaths inside vehicles and what temperature it needs to be for that to occur,” according to search warrants.“Justin stated that he was fearful that this could happen.”

]

The family have been in Alabama since before Cooper was born and he was nearly two years old when he died - why would they suddenly need to check up on an issue which everyone is well aware of (be it children or pets) just days before he actually dies in a hot car? Everyone knows not to leave pets or children in a hot car - for goodness sake, I live in the UK, hardly a global hot spot, and Everyone here knows not to do that, so I simply do not believe that they were not well aware of the dangers without needing to research.

And seriously, if you are worried about the possibility of your child dying in a hot car then you look for what to do to avoid it happening, not what temperature is required to ensure that they do die. Why do you need to know that? If it said they could die within an hour when the temperature was 80 degrees does that mean it is a good idea to experiment with leaving them in a car at 75 degrees for an hour and ten minutes? Of course it doesn't - the only thing you need to know is NOT to leave them in the car in the first place!*

EDIT I have just read far enough to find a post with some actual times and temperatures showing my suggestions were very wide of the mark. It could take just minutes. That is because I never bothered to look up the details for my child - i never ever left her alone in the car whatever the weather.

That makes the father's story even less convincing in my view. If he actually searched and found out figures suggesting death could occur in well under an hour and he actually was worried about this happening to his son, how could he possibly forget him in the car as claimed. Totally incredible.

 

[jmcgladr]

There have been several posts that have said it is quite likely there was no odor.

Well, between a LE source who was there and a random post from someone who wasn't there suggesting (guessing, really) that there was no odor (which goes against my personal experience of the frequency of BMs in toddlers and my understanding of the body's automatic functions after death) I'm going to side with the LE account, every time.

 

[SStarr33]

They weren't there. LE was. See the post I just bumped.

I saw it. I also saw the information posted earlier that said it is likely the odor did not start until Cooper was jostled. Would you like links?

 

[New1]

He is so forgetful that he forgot his own baby was in the car with him, but yet he seems to have remembered that he was meeting up with friends after work? Think about that for awhile.

 

[Chewy]

Yeah my ex was one of those. Too busy with his GF to handle things at home.:moo:

You know, until this very post it never occurred to me that the "friends" he was supposed to meet was not a bunch of guys. A woman could be involved there. How funny, so obvious but overlooked. Does anyone have confirmation of who he was supposed to be meeting after work?

Just curious. Can't wait until we get the timeline.

 

[Cherry]

On tricia's last blogtalk she asked levi for the link to the video so I'm posting it again...to preserve it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac3RAOPSRZw

and also asked how far daycare was from his office etc:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/27/boy-dies-hot-car-father-charged/11472849/
Article Plus Video

We will miss blogtalkradio!! Ce'est La Vie

 

[SStarr33]

Actually, no there have not, and if there are posts of this nature, they are not factual.

LE stated the car absolutely REEKED.

I am going with Law Enforcement and the professionals at the scene and my common sense that a dead and diapered child locked in sweltering car for 7 hours would produce a smell.

Yes, there have been at least two:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10682218&postcount=127"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - GA - Suspicion over heat death of Cooper, 22 mo., Cobb County, June 2014, #6[/ame]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10683017&postcount=348"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - GA - Suspicion over heat death of Cooper, 22 mo., Cobb County, June 2014, #6[/ame]

 

[SStarr33]

Giving CPR to a long dead Cooper is a rather generous definition of "helping him." Taking him out of the car before he died, or not leaving him there in the first place, would have helped him.

This not happening being the best situation goes without saying.

 

[K_Z]

I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread, so perhaps this has already been answered.

There was discussion upthread about the child's body being in rigor mortis, as well as having a perceptible odor. Most of us that follow crime cases know that heat accelerates decomposition, and cooler temps slow down decomposition. Smaller bodies decompose more rapidly than larger ones, especially in high heat situations. It's likely that the temps in the car were "extreme" over the course of the day, likely at or in excess of 100 degrees Fahrenheit. This would accelerate the onset of rigor, as well as things like bowel fermentation, causing typical discoloration of the lower quadrants first (in adults, I'm not sure about toddlers).

There is a scientific model called "accumulated degree days" (ADD), that is used to identify the post mortem interval (PMI) more closely. This model takes into account temperatures and conditions of the body during the PMI, and extrapolates backwards to time of death. ADD methods also look at things like insect colonization, and stage of the insect early arrivers, adjusting for temperature and exposure, etc.

I'm definitely not an expert on this, but some of our sleuthy WS'ers could probably put together a time and temperature timeline, making some guesstimates about TOD, and using weather data from that date, car temp charts, etc. Might just be a WAG (wild a$$ guess), but might also be close to TOD. I'm certain that the ME/ forensic specialists will do this for trial. (I'm traveling at the moment, so have limited time to research this and make a timeline model for the next few days.)

Here are some articles for a nice overview, to provide a jumping off point for research, or to use the bibliographies for more info. Some are just abstracts, unfortunately.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15932096

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037907381300193X

http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/JFS2004017.htm

http://archlab.uindy.edu/documents/theses/MegyesiMSAbstract.pdf

http://www.dspace.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/32616/Myburgh_Estimating_2013.pdf?sequence=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890647

And, of course, Dr. Arpad Vass' work on "odorology"!

http://web.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/pres/119106.pdf

 

[blue22]

Yes, there have been at least two:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - GA - Suspicion over heat death of Cooper, 22 mo., Cobb County, June 2014, #6

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - GA - Suspicion over heat death of Cooper, 22 mo., Cobb County, June 2014, #6

I'm sorry, but I trust LE over well thought out speculation from people who weren't there.

Further, was the baby not jostled when he opened the door and got in? (My husband who is MUCH smaller, jostles the vehicle...and we have the same one...when he gets in.) Did it not jostle when he backed out? When he pulled out of the parking lot? Even IF I thought the scenarios linked to were possible in this case, I wouldn't believe the noises didn't happen before he came upon that parking lot.

 

[LisaB]

Someone said,"When he felt the body that it was warm, he may not have instantly realized the boy was dead... "
That baby boy wasn't cold because he had been baked for 7 hours!!! Here is a Weather Channel slideshow about 90* temps and cars. One note says an animal can perish in a few
minutes. Cooper was less than 30lbs at 22 months. http://www.weather.com/activities/driving/slideshow/hot_car.html

That was me. I think he SHOULD have known the boy would not be cold under the circumstances, but the idea that he thought he could pass the child off as just having died, and possibly believed that he really heard the child choking just before he pulled off, could have been based on denial combined with the unthinking assumption that dead bodies are cold. OBVIOUSLY (to us or any thinking person) not when they are in a hot car, but cold and stiff are two symptoms of death. Warm is not a "typical" condition in death.

 

[Cherry]

Thank you, Thank you. I've been chastised for the same thoughts.:seeya::seeya:

YW I cannot support either parent in this case. I felt vindicated last night when I heard the FBI profiler talk about how the searches ARE suspicious and that the funeral behavior IS suspicious and it WILL be taken into consideration by the FBI and IT is being done as we speak. Per the FBI last night on CNN.....

I cannot and will not in the face of evidence that we know today support either parent. This is by no means an "attack" on anyone...it's not only my opinion but the FBI's as well as CNN.

I want to know when and how much the life insurance policy on this child is/was and the tox screen. I think he drugged him at ChicFila. WE will see. This is my theory...it doesn't have to support anyone elses. I will NOT stand for what this mother did at that funeral and the FBI isn't going to either. IT is Suspect. Period. The Profiler stated that her behavior at the funeral was suspect and it will be interesting to see if further charges are to come. That is what was stated. And it's also my belief that "they were in this together".

It's not rocket science. There is something very wrong with this couple IMMHO:tantrum:

 

[LisaB]

What's the simple safety system?

http://www.wsmv.com/story/25860128/kids-invention-gets-worlds-attention

 

[popsicle]

I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread, so perhaps this has already been answered.

There was discussion upthread about the child's body being in rigor mortis, as well as having a perceptible odor. Most of us that follow crime cases know that heat accelerates decomposition, and cooler temps slow down decomposition. Smaller bodies decompose more rapidly than larger ones, especially in high heat situations. It's likely that the temps in the car were "extreme" over the course of the day, likely at or in excess of 100 degrees Fahrenheit. This would accelerate the onset of rigor, as well as things like bowel fermentation, causing typical discoloration of the lower quadrants first (in adults, I'm not sure about toddlers).

There is a scientific model called "accumulated degree days" (ADD), that is used to identify the post mortem interval (PMI) more closely. This model takes into account temperatures and conditions of the body during the PMI, and extrapolates backwards to time of death. ADD methods also look at things like insect colonization, and stage of the insect early arrivers, adjusting for temperature and exposure, etc.

I'm definitely not an expert on this, but some of our sleuthy WS'ers could probably put together a time and temperature timeline, making some guesstimates about TOD, and using weather data from that date, car temp charts, etc. Might just be a WAG (wild a$$ guess), but might also be close to TOD. I'm certain that the ME/ forensic specialists will do this for trial. (I'm traveling at the moment, so have limited time to research this and make a timeline model for the next few days.)

Here are some articles for a nice overview, to provide a jumping off point for research, or to use the bibliographies for more info. Some are just abstracts, unfortunately.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15932096

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037907381300193X

http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/JFS2004017.htm

http://archlab.uindy.edu/documents/theses/MegyesiMSAbstract.pdf

http://www.dspace.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/32616/Myburgh_Estimating_2013.pdf?sequence=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890647

And, of course, Dr. Arpad Vass' work on "odorology"!

http://web.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/pres/119106.pdf

BBM Thanks for the info and the links!

 

[blue22]

You know, until this very post it never occurred to me that the "friends" he was supposed to meet was not a bunch of guys. A woman could be involved there. How funny, so obvious but overlooked. Does anyone have confirmation of who he was supposed to be meeting after work?

Just curious. Can't wait until we get the timeline.

This is probably really silly, but I found it interesting that his male friends are all really good looking in a classical, kind of universal way. I imagine friends like that have a lot of female friends in the group.

I also wonder...if he thought he WAS one of those guys, and anyone less good looking wasn't good enough for him to be around.

 

[rob]

There have been several posts that have said it is quite likely there was no odor.

The MSM article stating that LE said the car reeked, has been posted on this thread several times. I clicked on it to read myself.

 

[SStarr33]

I'm sorry, but I trust LE over well thought out speculation from people who weren't there.

Further, was the baby not jostled when he opened the door and got in? (My husband who is MUCH smaller, jostles the vehicle...and we have the same one...when he gets in.) Did it not jostle when he backed out? When he pulled out of the parking lot? Even IF I thought the scenarios linked to were possible in this case, I wouldn't believe the noises didn't happen before he came upon that parking lot.

Both of those people have quite a bit of experience with dead people. I have no idea of the amount of jostling it takes to get a body to expel gasses, do you? If not, maybe someone who knows will chime in.