General Discussion and Theories

[expat cdn]

I just re-read a couple of his recent posts and i am surprised, too. He and several others sure know what they are writing about vis-a-vis Canadian law. Fascinating and quite educational.

I do have a question: Don't the Canadian courts keep everything under wraps until after a verdict is rendered? Although it's not ideal for sleuthers, it allows for a lot less sensationalism like we have here in the States. We have gag orders, they have publication bans, eh?

The publication bans are not always lifted immediately after trial, sometimes a partial ban remains and they aren't lifted until months or even years later. Especially for sexual assault cases.
(Happy July 4th)

 

[Sillybilly]

I do have a question: Don't the Canadian courts keep everything under wraps until after a verdict is rendered?

We will be privy to the court proceedings, testimony and evidence as the trial proceeds, not just after the verdict (i.e. reporters were able to tweet from the trial of Michael Rafferty in the Tori Stafford case and we followed along, minute by minute).

As a matter of interest in that trial, the public was actually aware of very damning information that was not allowed at trial because it was so prejudicial to the defendant. I think pretty much all of Canada held their breath, praying that the jury would arrive at a Guilty verdict, and they did.

FWIW, Canadian jurors are not allowed to speak about the trial afterwards.

 

[cansleuther]

As a matter of interest in that trial, the public was actually aware of very damning information that was not allowed at trial because it was so prejudicial to the defendant.

Totally off-topic here, but IIRC that particularly damning information was not allowed because MR's computer was seized without a proper warrant, and all of the evidence found on it was inadmissible in court.

 

[Sillybilly]

Totally off-topic here, but IIRC that particularly damning information was not allowed because MR's computer was seized without a proper warrant, and all of the evidence found on it was inadmissible in court.

We're both right on that cansleuther ... there were two reasons:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/lett...12/05/19/judge_right_to_exclude_evidence.html

Justice Heeney excluded the evidence of Mr. Rafferty’s taste for violent and obscene material for two reasons:

First, the police were careless in obtaining it. Whether or not the law was clear at the time, there was no emergency — they had the computer and could have sought a warrant (one investigator asked his superiors if they should have). The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not a menu the police can choose from only when they have an appetite for it. Also, subsequent binding precedent from the Ontario Court of Appeal said as much — and Justice Heeney was bound to apply it.

Second, he found the evidence to be of little probative value. What it would have done, if admitted into the trial, is not much more than show that Rafferty is a sexual deviant possessed of bad character. This would have run the very real risk of causing some jurors to leap directly from that to the conclusion that Rafferty committed these awful crimes. That’s exactly what jurors are not supposed to do, no matter how intelligent they are.

Exclusion/inclusion of the illegally obtained evidence is still within a judge's discretion based primarily on certain factors ... some of which are weighing whether or not the probative value outweighs the prejudicial value, or if it's exclusion/inclusion would bring the administration of justice into disrepute.

Some good, looooooong reads on the exclusionary rule:

"Improperly or Illegally Obtained Evidence: The Exclusionary Evidence Rule in Canada"

http://www.icclr.law.ubc.ca/publications/reports/es paper - exclusionary evidence rule.pdf


http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ary+rule"+discretion&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

A judge can also base his/her decision on whether the evidence that has been illegally obtained is credible and therefore necessary to be allowed (i.e. in the above link, an illegally obtained confession, but one which results in a murder weapon being found might be included if it is deemed relevant and trustworthy, regardless of how it is acquired, while weighing fundamental rights over the search for the truth).

Sure t'aint cut and dried.

ETA: Regina vs Grant replaced Regina vs Collins (i.e. Collins test)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Grant

 

[skatergirl]

Jumping off a post in the incinerator thread, I thought I would post here to try and keep that thread on topic.

A few quotes from the following article popped out at me
Bosma’s cellphone was found three days later in an industrial area of the nearby city of Brantford.

However, “no other vehicle” can be seen on surveillance video in that area, Kavanagh said. The cellphone led investigators to Millard, he added.
http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/3242980-bosma-found-dead-in-region/

What struck me in these comments, are the "no other vehicle" quoted from Kavanagh. There was much discussion about an actual eye witness to TB's truck, which I am in no way denying, but this quote IMO suggests there is some video evidence as well. And by this quote, I take it to mean that the trailing SUV was no longer trailing at this time.
Also, he states TB's cell phone led them to DM. By this comment, IMO they were able to get DM's burner phone #, and track him from it, which to me suggests he had it on and had it with him. How else would they have been able to connect DM to that phone?

 

[Sillybilly]

Also, he states TB's cell phone led them to DM. By this comment, IMO they were able to get DM's burner phone #, and track him from it, which to me suggests he had it on and had it with him. How else would they have been able to connect DM to that phone?

<rs&bbm>

By finding out what phone number called TB and pulling the records to find all the numbers that particular phone had called.

 

[Snoofo]

Jumping off a post in the incinerator thread, I thought I would post here to try and keep that thread on topic.

A few quotes from the following article popped out at me
Bosma’s cellphone was found three days later in an industrial area of the nearby city of Brantford.

However, “no other vehicle” can be seen on surveillance video in that area, Kavanagh said. The cellphone led investigators to Millard, he added.
http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/3242980-bosma-found-dead-in-region/

What struck me in these comments, are the "no other vehicle" quoted from Kavanagh. There was much discussion about an actual eye witness to TB's truck, which I am in no way denying, but this quote IMO suggests there is some video evidence as well. And by this quote, I take it to mean that the trailing SUV was no longer trailing at this time.
Also, he states TB's cell phone led them to DM. By this comment, IMO they were able to get DM's burner phone #, and track him from it, which to me suggests he had it on and had it with him. How else would they have been able to connect DM to that phone?

Has the burner phone finally been verified as being DM's?

 

[Sillybilly]

Has the burner phone finally been verified as being DM's?

We don't know anything other than it was purchased in January (iirc, under a fake name). In that 3 to 4 month timeframe, surely it wasn't only used to call the Toronto potential victim and Tim (had those 2 calls been their(?) only purpose, there would have been no need to purchase it that far ahead). Perhaps there were other numbers that LE was able to contact to verify who the primary user of the phone was.

JMO

 

[Snoofo]

Jumping off a post in the incinerator thread, I thought I would post here to try and keep that thread on topic.

A few quotes from the following article popped out at me
Bosma&#8217;s cellphone was found three days later in an industrial area of the nearby city of Brantford.

However, &#8220;no other vehicle&#8221; can be seen on surveillance video in that area, Kavanagh said. The cellphone led investigators to Millard, he added.
http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/3242980-bosma-found-dead-in-region/

What struck me in these comments, are the "no other vehicle" quoted from Kavanagh. There was much discussion about an actual eye witness to TB's truck, which I am in no way denying, but this quote IMO suggests there is some video evidence as well. And by this quote, I take it to mean that the trailing SUV was no longer trailing at this time.
Also, he states TB's cell phone led them to DM. By this comment, IMO they were able to get DM's burner phone #, and track him from it, which to me suggests he had it on and had it with him. How else would they have been able to connect DM to that phone?

Also lanman responded accurately IMO to this query in the Incinerator thread. I'd have brought it over but my phone doesnt feel like copy'n'pasting today.

 

[skatergirl]

<rs&bbm>

By finding out what phone number called TB and pulling the records to find all the numbers that particular phone had called.

Ok, but excuse me for asking, I've read so much my head seems to be spinning...I understand LE getting the burner phone # from TB's phone, and finding other numbers contacted from the burner phone, but if the essence of a burner phone is not to have it connected to it's owner via a contract with a service provider, how was the phone connected to DM per Kavanagh's statement? I apologize if I am missing something here

 

[Snoofo]

Ok, but excuse me for asking, I've read so much my head seems to be spinning...I understand LE getting the burner phone # from TB's phone, and finding other numbers contacted from the burner phone, but if the essence of a burner phone is not to have it connected to it's owner via a contract with a service provider, how was the phone connected to DM per Kavanagh's statement? I apologize if I am missing something here

TB Phone led to burner phone which led to Etobicoke test drive which led to crucial Ambition tattoo tip.

 

[skatergirl]

TB Phone led to burner phone which led to Etobicoke test drive which led to crucial Ambition tattoo tip.

Quote from Sillybilly

We don't know anything other than it was purchased in January (iirc, under a fake name). In that 3 to 4 month timeframe, surely it wasn't only used to call the Toronto potential victim and Tim (had those 2 calls been their(?) only purpose, there would have been no need to purchase it that far ahead). Perhaps there were other numbers that LE was able to contact to verify who the primary user of the phone was.

JMO

Again, I apologize for my apparent daftness. I have recently arrived 'down under' and with the time change and all haven't been getting much sleep, so I'm reading things and thinking they are logical, when in actuality they are not.:blushing:
I just feel compelled to keep checking what is going on with this case as it sickens and saddens me to no end. Perhaps I will take a few days off from here, so when I come back, I may make more sense:truce:
My thoughts will forever be with the Bosma's, their friends and the community

 

[Coldpizza]

It's all good skatergirl and no worries! We all post things that we later feel we should have taken a second look. Not to mention your a great contributor to the forum as so many here trying to find the sense of it all.

 

[Snoofo]

Quote from Sillybilly


Again, I apologize for my apparent daftness. I have recently arrived 'down under' and with the time change and all haven't been getting much sleep, so I'm reading things and thinking they are logical, when in actuality they are not.:blushing:
I just feel compelled to keep checking what is going on with this case as it sickens and saddens me to no end. Perhaps I will take a few days off from here, so when I come back, I may make more sense:truce:
My thoughts will forever be with the Bosma's, their friends and the community

No daftness. I read your posts thinking "she's onto something!", having forgotten myself about LE finding Etobicoke guy etc. until Ianman replied with the answer we knew about but forgot (temporarily).

The boards are wearing me out but I dont think I will stop being interested in this case. Yet I wish, like everyone else here, that it never happened and Tim B would be back home from work tonight, probably tucking his little girl into bed around this time and then spending a little time with the Mrs.

 

[Eljo]

Quote from Sillybilly


Again, I apologize for my apparent daftness. I have recently arrived 'down under' and with the time change and all haven't been getting much sleep, so I'm reading things and thinking they are logical, when in actuality they are not.:blushing:
I just feel compelled to keep checking what is going on with this case as it sickens and saddens me to no end. Perhaps I will take a few days off from here, so when I come back, I may make more sense:truce:
My thoughts will forever be with the Bosma's, their friends and the community

I've always felt that effective brainstorming and problem solving involves throwing out ideas as they come to mind You just never know. And intuition has to count for something even if there are no hard facts to support the theory. We are all working toward a common goal here even though some posters rely on hard evidence and others go with a gut feeling or a combination of the two. Who's to say any one opinion is more valid than another? I've also regretted a few posts but fortunately the moderators have seen the errors in my ways and removed those posts

 

[Archangel7]

Does anyone have photos of the red Dodge and /or the Yukon?

If so please post them or point me to them. I need all that I can get.

TB's truck too.

TIA

 

[Snoofo]

Does anyone have photos of the red Dodge and /or the Yukon?

If so please post them or point me to them. I need all that I can get.

TB's truck too.

TIA

Google DM Dodge ram you'll get lots of TB's and one of DM standing in front of his red ram.
I dont recall any photos of Yukon.

We have a photos and maps thread here. Great pics of TB's truck.

 

[Archangel7]

Google DM Dodge ram you'll get lots of TB's and one of DM standing in front of his red ram.
I dont recall any photos of Yukon.

We have a photos and maps thread here. Great pics of TB's truck.

Thanks, I covered most of those, but still looking.

Thanks again

 

[expat cdn]

Thanks, I covered most of those, but still looking.

Thanks again

There are some pics on the fb page discussing the case, red truck, but no yukon

 

[hopingforjustice]

This link shows that it was a police excavator (yellow/black) is this what you mean?

http://www.570news.com/2013/05/30/toronto-police-back-for-day-two-of-millard-farm-investigation/

Sorry..didn't mean to be gone this long...but holidays came into play.

No..this is not the piece of equipment that is there..it is smaller ..So hard to see it. Can't tell what kind of equipment it is (I don't know equipment that well) But it has a gold/black kinda triangle shape on top front. Can't really see the bottom. I stopped the other day and tried to take a picture but the brush is grown so high from the road and my camera phone is brutal. ( I would want to ask admin if I could post it if I got a good shot)

I just know that I only started noticing it there a few weeks ago. It is parked right up beside the barn. and I don't see it in any of the photos from prior to searches or during. I will stop again and try to get a good picture.