General Discussion Thread #2

[shane13]

Didn't Cecil Myers say he identified her body and was really surprised by later reports of her skull being crushed by a bat because he saw nothing to that effect at all when he saw her body. Not that he is an expert, just saying.

If you go back 2 days ago, when that objection was brought up, I posted the link that said her skull fracture was in the back of the head. And I wrote that Myers' brief viewing for ID purposes was likely her face only.

 

[Estelle]

One thing I commented on before is the bullet wound to her hand. And that this appears to be defensive to try to shield her head. If this aspect is accurate, it again implies she was conscious after the bat strike.

The fractured skull from the strike (not a bullet IMO as your top paragraph has it) may not have been severe as I have posted even wiki reports on several levels of severity of skull fracture with the lowest level not causing much impairment.

The point is that any assault he did on her, he then knew his life as he knew it was over, and his first thoughts were to kill the witness, instead of getting her help as IMO she could well have been saved at that point.

But again your scenario is possible until we learn how the door locks.

I would think that it would only lock from the inside, so I think again that she was conscious when she went in there. To me this fits everything better than your scenario from what is known now.

But how do you prove that toilet door was locked? Only his word.

 

[Estelle]

One thing I commented on before is the bullet wound to her hand. And that this appears to be defensive to try to shield her head. If this aspect is accurate, it again implies she was conscious after the bat strike.

If a person is lying there dead or unconscious, her hand may have been placed there or fallen there and it just so happens that he fires that part. It does not prove she was alive or conscious, does it?

 

[joe jones]

If you go back 2 days ago, when that objection was brought up, I posted the link that said her skull fracture was in the back of the head. And I wrote that Myers' brief viewing for ID purposes was likely her face only.

if the quote is a correct quote he did say he saw the bullet wound in her head, so he saw more than her face, and he said the police never told the family her skull was bashed in

I see no reason for her family to wish to hide this fact

 

[shane13]

But how do you prove that toilet door was locked? Only his word.

The door shots presumably directly imply the door was closed. How else could it be in that position?--if its unlocked position is to be wide ajar into the stall. But I do not know its unlocked position.

 

[Estelle]

If the police are the ones who told the media (as the media have been claiming) that the bat was used on her head, in addition to blood they could have known this immediately by there being hair and other tissue on the bat, not just blood.

Exactly, Shane!

 

[shane13]

If a person is lying there dead or unconscious, her hand may have been placed there or fallen there and it just so happens that he fires that part. It does not prove she was alive or conscious, does it?

Different point in time. If at the end, he is firing into her head wound, he is gonna make sure bullet does not first pass through her hand! That would negate the whole point of trying to destroy that wound with a bigger wound.

 

[Estelle]

Sounds very plausible to me ..... except, if he attacks RS with the bat, and then uses same bat to break down the * allegedly* locked door, then wont the door have - am trying to say this as nicely as possible - particles from RS embedded into the wood ?
How would he expxlain that ?

That is why even the defence is now saying the door is crucial!

 

[shane13]

if the quote is a correct quote he did say he saw the bullet wound in her head, so he saw more than her face, and he said the police never told the family her skull was bashed in

I see no reason for her family to wish to hide this fact

Not the way I recall it; do you have the quote handy since you are implying you are looking at it now?

And plenty of reasons for the family to lie. Police even tell family to lie so as to try to entrap the guilty party.

SOP

 

[Estelle]

My thoughts as well, I think that RS was * placed* in the toilet, then the door closed ( not locked ) and OP then fires through the door at the correct angle, because he knows exactly where he needs to direct the shots.

The carrying downstairs was, imo, to cover the bloodstains in the corridor, perhaps even against the wall leading from bedroom to bathroom, where there may be blood splatter from the attack with the bat
Also, by picking up RS, then OP ensured he had blood all over him, no possibility for forensics to guage blood patterns on his clothes and work out what might have happened

Excellent addition to my scenario. Thank you.

 

[cityslick]

Why is supermarket level tabloid journalism being used as MSM now when discussing facts of the case? We now have a family member, as well as a member of the police who just in fact was in charge of the investigation never mention or infer she had head injuries beyond the bullet wound. In the IO's case, it would be a case of lying in court.

If this was truly the case, every major media outlet would be running with this story if true. The reason they are not is because whatever sources Daily mail has cannot be verified. Lets not get into the sensationalism that Fox News gets.

 

[shane13]

Poor Oscar.
He's got all these months to stew, as all the absudities, lies, improbabilities and cover-ups in his affidavit get exposed to the world.

 

[otyikondo]

Why is supermarket level tabloid journalism being used as MSM now when discussing facts of the case? We now have a family member, as well as a member of the police who just in fact was in charge of the investigation never mention or infer she had head injuries beyond the bullet wound. In the IO's case, it would be a case of lying in court.

If this was truly the case, every major media outlet would be running with this story if true. The reason they are not is because whatever sources Daily mail has cannot be verified. Lets not get into the sensationalism that Fox News gets.

A still small voice of sanity. Thank you. There will be plenty of time (and plenty, plenty of leaks, I'm sure of that) before the trial on this case. Riding everything on what the Mail says is not just premature, it's pointless. There'll be much better stuff coming later.

 

[Estelle]

Agree......

but vest top and long trousers ( if the long trouser version is true ) would surely not be worn in summer time

Long trousers says to me that neither of them were in bed and asleep

I live in Australia which has a similar hot climate to South Africa at this time of year, and a model with great legs on a very hot night could quite easily turn up in shorts for a quiet dinner at home with her loved one. I would if I had great legs, wouldn't you? It appears that he did not have air conditioning on hence his having to get the fan off the balcony which further supports this. I wear shorts at night if at home. One does not have to wear long pants at home or when out for a casual evening at a friend's home here anyway and I think South Africa would be the same especially for a model whose boyfriend might have admired her legs.

 

[Estelle]

Well my point was that I don't know if that door was capable of being in the closed position without being locked--as many such doors will be well inside the stall unless locked.

I will comment to your points in bold

IMO in some respects, it does not matter either way, the door was closed when he made at least those first shots whether he closed it or she did.

One thing that fits your scenario is that he needed to carry her after he was done because he already carried her; otherwise her blood on him will not be explainable.

Agreed. That is why he carried her down the stairs to explain the blood on himself.

But it's not conclusive as she still could have gone to the toilet on her own and if he shot into her fractured skull from close range, he would have gotten her blood and tissues all over him at that point--even if he did not carry her to the toilet. That is firing into her skull from close range likely would have some blowback of blood and tissue, so he had to do the carry down the stairs bit whichever way it happened earlier. Again the hand wound (shielding the head) is important here along with the door.

Do you think that the casing found in the toilet would have only been possible if the last bullet was fired at close range to the head and not through the door? Could he have set this up having already bashed down the door earlier? I think the hand was placed there for a purpose.

But I can see why he sobbed whenever they touched upon the horrors that he did--and likely from close range while looking at her. Does he have some conscience? Or just self-pity that he may be going to jail for a long time?

I think it is mainly self-pity. However, he must have horrific memories so is likely to commit suicide if he can find a way to do it.

 

[21merc7]

OP's crying.

If this was an accident, I am certain it is very painful.

If it is not, he could have remorse, self pity, and pity for her once he calmed down. (Must say it is very clear that "love" is not what these 2 really had, just a crush at best, jmo.) I also think he was instructed to show a great deal of remorse in Court for the Judge and for the cameras. Any defense attorney will tell you to "wear your Sunday best, and show some remorse for your actions."

I mention the love thing, as all media is saying they were in love. Well, first of all, that is not how it works. At just a few months it is still a crush, and definitely sexual. Barring that, his actions prove the relationship had not matured to love.

If you truly love someone, in an emergency where they are present, your first thought is of that person and their safety. Not to get a gun and go shooting, either b/c you are scared or to prove you can protect her. Your first action once at the bed to the gun would be to look or reach out to touch, to communicate to be quiet I have it under control.

 

[Estelle]

And my response to THAT would be that her brother Adam Steenkamp rejected the theory out of hand. Now, why did HE break ranks and not follow the party line?

And where are these independent, non-Daily Mail reports? If you've got other sources, this might make some semblance of sense, but with a single source it's very iffy.

Edit: OK. I'll run through your posts to date and see what I turn up...

From what I know, the family are told not to disclose details and even deny reports.

 

[cityslick]

From what I know, the family are told not to disclose details and even deny reports.

Is there an MSM link for this?

 

[otyikondo]

I have posted links to these articles before but nobody seems to read them!

I will have a search but it is approaching bedtime for me so I might have to do that tomorrow.

It was not, I suspect, in CNN's reporting, as they had this to say:

Pistorius said in his statement that he used the bat to break down the door in an effort to get to Steenkamp to help her.
Botha agreed with the defense contention that, other than the bullet wounds, her body showed no sign of an assault or efforts to defend herself.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/20/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-case/index.html

Note. Botha on the stand. Presumably under oath. What's the going rate for perjury and perverting the course of justice these days?

The obvious flaw in all this is that if Oscar had whacked her as suggested with a bat, would he not have factored this action into his one-size-fits-all fable of what happened, in order to be able to explain away the awkward bits of Reeva's skull and brain that are going to turn up later on the bat?

Arguing that it was all a clever trick by the prosecution to hold back the bat-on-skull evidence, in order to get Oscar to commit himself to a specific account and then to bring this whole thing up - voilá - at trial is all very well, but if OP did bash her skull in with a bat then he must KNOW that, and he would have manufactured an explanation. Seeing as he's as clever and devious as he's supposed to be.

 

[Estelle]

Why is supermarket level tabloid journalism being used as MSM now when discussing facts of the case? We now have a family member, as well as a member of the police who just in fact was in charge of the investigation never mention or infer she had head injuries beyond the bullet wound. In the IO's case, it would be a case of lying in court.

If this was truly the case, every major media outlet would be running with this story if true. The reason they are not is because whatever sources Daily mail has cannot be verified. Lets not get into the sensationalism that Fox News gets.

Well a member of the missing Liesle Jones case on this forum told us that she could not disclose any details. It was not a trial, it was only a bail hearing. It is called detective strategy, I guess, and perfectly acceptable.