General Discussion Thread #2

[Carol70]

Sorry fans.

This is a predator. Moo! Based on personal experience and watching many trials.

Legally, the bail decision was appropriate.

Lolol@ fans!!!

Putting my feelings aside, I'm willing to admit there is an element of smugness...maybe a smirk in that picture, but it could just be the lighting, angle etc etc...but if I took it for face value and didn't know the circumstances...then I will go with what I say above. But most pictures I have looked at, I have felt and seen true sadness.

 

[Patticake]

Where did the nighty thing come from?

Inbou

I don't know and I can't vouch for this quotation either. If I see a quote that seems pertinent, then I post it.

I do not know if Reeva was wearing shorts or long pants. I do not know what Nels said today in his statement.

I don't know if OP drinks. I have only posted a couple of statements I have seen previously.

Sadly, none of us can vouch for the truth about anything on the internet.

.

 

[Carol70]

The prosecution has said she was wearings shorts (or short pants) and a vest. They have stated they feel this is significant in their case against OP. OP's defense has floated the idea that Reeva could have put on these clothes to go to the bathroom. The prosecution has now added that one of the bullets went through the shorts she was wearing and they find that significant to their case in some way. I assume this was the right hip wound. These accounts are coming from journalists in the courtroom for the bail hearing.

I guess we will only find out the truth when it comes to trial. The shorts/pants she was wearing will be entered into evidence as the prosecution seems to think they may be crucial to their case.

 

[21merc7]

He just looks serious to me. I'm not sure how it's the face of a predator. But I also don't categorize all rage killers as "predators". To me, a predator is someone who trolls for victims (or even for one victim - stalking and then killing kind of thing).

Lolol@ fans!!!

Putting my feelings aside, I'm willing to admit there is an element of smugness...maybe a smirk in that picture, but it could just be the lighting, angle etc etc...but if I took it for face value and didn't know the circumstances...then I will go with what I say above. But most pictures I have looked at, I have felt and seen true sadness.

I agree. I was hasty to say. But I have been pointing out all of the photos from all of the days. Just familiar facial expressions and body language to me. I am working in my mind with the accumulation of the photos.

I always picked the bad ones, so, in my own humble opinion, the accumulation tells me a lot. Just me, I hope I am wrong and no future incidents occur.

Legally, there is no evidence that this was intentional, again my opinion at this point. I am not against the idea of accident btw.

 

[Patticake]

I think it's been established that we can only take what Mr Botha said with a pinch of salt...also, I must actually find out but it may be common to request blood samples when a crime of this magnitude has been committed. Surely finding out if one is drunk, drugged at the time of the crime would be critical to the case ( for both defense and prosecution)???

I agree with you, although probably not for the same reasons.

I think there was a period of time, a day or two after the murder, when the tabloids were pouring out lots of questionable stuff: the short to the hip before locking herself in the bathroom etcetera. That stuff is still out there so there is much to discount as a truthful account.

And I think Botha has been sometimes justly, and other times unjustly vilified by OP's lawyers.

.

 

[21merc7]

America is no where near what I have been learning about this place. I know there are some scary places here. But as a rule?? We are a safe country. I don't think we can comprehend these kind of places.

It is in some cities. I am happy it is not in all.

 

[Carol70]

You guys are not reading what Patticake's is posting up.

The medic said Pistorius told them Steenkamp had stopped breathing three minutes before the ambulance arrived.

“She had lost a lot of blood. I could see the trail of blood stains on the stairs.”

The wounds were fatal, and there was nothing they could do for the model. She was declared dead at the scene.

“When we told Pistorius there was nothing we could do to save her, he started crying.”

The medic said he had not gone upstairs.

“As soon as we had done the declaration of the death, the police ushered us outside,” he said.

The guys tells them that she stopped breathing three minutes before they got there. Then only starts crying when they say they cant do anything.

Inobu

It wouldn't surprise me if he was crying/ hysterical when he called estate management and netcare, hopefully during the trial we will get to hear the netcare call at least.

 

[gitana1]

America is no where near what I have been learning about this place. I know there are some scary places here. But as a rule?? We are a safe country. I don't think we can comprehend these kind of places.

Especially considering that 7000 or so home invasions occur per year in not all of the RSA, but in one province alone - Guateng, which has about 12 million people.

Compare that to the United States which has 315 million people.

 

[Carol70]

I agree with you, although probably not for the same reasons.

I think there was a period of time, a day or two after the murder, when the tabloids were pouring out lots of questionable stuff: the short to the hip before locking herself in the bathroom etcetera. That stuff is still out there so there is much to discount as a truthful account.

And I think Botha has been sometimes justly, and other times unjustly vilified by OP's lawyers.

.

Botha is being slaughtered by the SA public...the face of police ineptitude. He is being directly blamed for the states failure to prove anything...I actually feel so sorry for him...and I blame the state, how they could have let him take the stand without questioning him before hand is a joke. He was clearly out of his league.

 

[Carol70]

::

Especially considering that 7000 or so home invasions occur per year in not all of the RSA, but in one province alone - Guateng, which has about 12 million people.

Compare that to the United States which has 315 million people.

Thanks, I was actually going to mention this somewhere earlier but lost my train of thought...but my comment was going to mention that for a country with our high statical crime rate, we are but a dot on the map. I can't imagine Gauteng to be a bigger city than say Los Angeles?

 

[gitana1]

::
Thanks, I was actually going to mention this somewhere earlier but lost my train of thought...but my comment was going to mention that for a country with our high statical crime rate, we are but a dot on the map. I can't imagine Gauteng to be a bigger city than say Los Angeles?

The greater Los Angeles area has over 12 million people (according to wiki). That's comparable to Guateng province, where we find Johannesburg and Pretoria. Yet they have over 7000 home invasions - not robberies, but actual invasions - per year.

What with gang rapes of women in the home, boiling 12 year old boys alive, raping little girls and murdering six year old boys during these home invasions, I can understand why people in that region may be a bit jumpy. That's all I'm saying.

Of course, someone could also use that rightful jumpiness as a cover for a jealous rage killing. We shall see.

I have a couple of clients from RSA. The legal system, LE, etc., is not quite the same as here. I can understand shoddy police work happening there. that's another reason I'm slow to jump the gun.

 

[Zinn]

Well this is today's Twitter Feed although I don't see the term "short pants:

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/afp/pistorius-in-court-live-report/573348

0847 GMT: Nell infers flaws in Pistorius' version of events, saying that bullet holes showed Steenkamp had her pants on when she was shot.

He also points to gaps in Pistorius' evidence: "There is still the position of the three cartridges, there is still the position of the firearm, there is still the position of the cellphone."

0843 GMT: The lawyer sounds a sarcastic note at times, strongly attacking Pistorius' version of the shooting, AFP's Myburgh reports:

"But why would she walk into the toilet with all of her clothes on, sit down and get shot?" Nel asks.

"Why would she not say 'where are you? What's going on?"

"To find his version probable, one must stretch."

END QUOTE

Multiple journalists live tweeted from the courtroom. I follow 4 or 5 of them to try to get the full picture of what's happening but I'm wasn't following the person quoted above, so that is helpful to see.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link a tweet. If so, here's the one that references short pants:

http://twitter.com/#!/Jacanews/status/304867565610627072

"#OscarPistorius state: we say the bullet through the deceased short pants tells a story"

(I believe "state" refers to Nel who was speaking at that time.)

For the last few days, on a daily basis, the "shorts" have been referenced by the prosecution. I would be surprised to learn it was actually long pants after all this, but it would be nice to have that clarified to know for sure.

 

[21merc7]

I think Carol70 posted early on what was considered the sleep vest and pants.

Short pants may be capri leggins in the U.S.

The sleep vest would be considered by us over 40 as a camisole a.k.a. spaghetti string tank top.

Maybe Carol70 will post pics again.

ETA: You could do yoga in them, just thinking.

 

[Zinn]

Where did the nighty thing come from?

Inbou

**RUMOR, NOT FACT** (just want to be clear I'm referencing an unverified report)

I recall reading about a nightie early on, but it was one of those "unnamed sources close to the investigation say..." things. IIRC, the rumor was that they surmised Reeva had slept there because the bed was wrinkled on both sides and a wrinkled nightie was there. So maybe you read the nightie thing in that context? This was back when people assumed OP's defense would be that Reeva surprised him in the middle of the night and he mistook her for an intruder.

I have no idea if there's any truth to the rumor mentioned above, but I AM curious to know if worn sleep clothes were found in the bedroom or bathroom, in addition to the clothes she was found wearing.

All of the above is just speculation and JMO.

 

[emmavoberry]

Best put by Inobu. Had to go to a lot of trouble to find that comment, but at the time it so brilliantly expressed the feeling I had--that in OP's re-telling, one gets no sense of verbal or non-verbal interaction with Reeva.

Inobu wrote:In any case the story does not reflect a multi dimensional perspective. It is expressed in a singular perspective with no interaction with a second person (Reeva).

Because the story is fabricated it is one dimensional and he is the only person presented in the story.

I'm putting these two remarks together without what intervenes in a stunning post.

Had he said "as I grabbed for the gun, I shook her, but she was comatose"... or "Reeva suddenly roused herself and said what the..." or "I whispered at Reeva to shut up, the castle is surrounded"..."All I can recall is that Reeva rolled over and went back to sleep..." "I noticed the outline of her gorgeous body under the covers...."

SHE's not on stage with him in his re-tell. Still bothers me. This self-serving recount. I think we always sense the presence or absence of "the other"--it's reflexive.

We turn our heads as we walk down the street, not because we hear a noise or are afraid but because we KNOW(our brains are so wired) some one is behind us. We ride in the car with our dog and suddenly brake without thinking but at the same time we stick our hand out to restrain the dog.

 

[21merc7]

I truly appreciate Inobu's posts too.

Action louder than words is the phrase, but in this case so far, words are louder than actions.

I do like the notice of the singular approach. However, to give benefit of doubt, if I were to retell any incident, stressful or not, I would be talking about me and leave out important details. In fact, I couldn't tell you what happened today and it make sense to anyone. Too much would be left out, and it was a normal mundane day.

In this case, the scanned Affidavit was prepared with OP's lawyer(s) assistance. It will leave much out, even if he said more or less. There is nothing in the Affidavit worth salt once prepared by those hired to protect you. They know what to say. (I am not putting down defense attorneys, it is their job and they are highly necessary.)

Inobu is correct in that the singular is not helpful. The other loopholes we have discussed thoroughly already. They will be filled by the time trial comes. (And, just an FYI, many cases are researched via attorneys and staff reading here, also media. That is not new news for this forum, or any other forum that posts public opinion in a highly publicized case.)

 

[Chewy]

I simply cannot understand so many of the comments in this thread. What is being used as "evidence" for guilt is mostly conjecture about what people wear to bed and "sensing" things about body language and whatnot.

Not hard facts.

I can't even tell what is true and what is gossip. Did someone hear them arguing at 2-3 am for sure? Or is that just gossip?

I would like to know what you all see in that pic Inobu postedTIA
I have read so many stories & most people are very angry he got bail!

The only thing I see,he is not crying!!

Me too and he cried for days anyway. It's ONE picture and I see absolutely nothing in this picture. Not like Casey Anthony's little smiles etc.

I know you guys are angry, thats why Ive pretty much remained silent. I still reiterate that I do believe this his story is plausible and until such time that there is evidence to the contrary, or a confession, i will remain on the defense...call me naive or whatever, considering my country's failure to protect its women...I have duly given Oscar the benefit of the doubt...that it was just was a horrible tragic accident. I havent ever forgotten that a woman, with her whole life ahead of her is dead and I feel deeply for her family. Nothing that anyone can do or say will bring her back.

There are alot of questions that need answering, and Im sure in time it will come to light.
Oscars failure to check if Reeva was in the bed or calling out...not done for reasons unknown but surely, questions that OP is asking himself...I do truly believe that sometimes people just do things that are unexplainable even to themselves when faced with situations that are the unknown, adrenalin, absolute fear etc etc. I have made my case over and over in this debate so not going to go all into it again. There is no concrete evidence that he is aggressively violent bar threatening to "break the legs" of someone who is of dubious character himself....hell, my teenage son has pissed me off enough that Ive threatened to break his little neck . Im an average woman of sound mind, easy going and of a happy and peaceful nature but if I were to feel threatened in the least in my own home, I wouldnt think twice to sink my husbands axe into someone's head. Shyte does happen...tragic horrible stuff and then the "why why why" comes out and there really are no answers.

Why didnt this father ask who was there before blindly shooting:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/25/southafrica.rugbyunion
Im sure he asks himself that every single day of his life.

Why didnt this father make sure his young daughter was safe while intruders were in their house:
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/dad-mistakes-daughter-for-burglar-1.1300063#.USe79B3bTzA
Im sure he asks himself that every day of his life.

Not the same I know, but there is every possibility that Oscar is telling the truth and I dont want to forget that.

Great post. This kind of tragedy sadly happens every day in the US. The key to me if he IS telling the truth is why she didn't answer or call out or come out of the bathroom when he was making all the noise.

Did she panic thinking that someone was in the "outer bathroom" if so why didn't she call the police.

Did she have her cell phones in the bathroom?


The other detail that people seem to be completely dismissing is that this happened when he had woken up from sleep. Some people wake up bright eyed and bushy tailed, others are groggy and not clear in their mind so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.


There are details I'd need to know as a juror before deciding guilt or innocence. I can't believe how many people are completely convinced of his guilt prior to knowing the facts of the case.

 

[cityslick]

I think the biggest thing for me is at this time, even with the inconsistencies in his story about not checking on her and firing blindly, there has been nothing presented that says it didn't happen the way he says it did. I'm very open to the idea that this was no accident, that there was some argument, etc. But at this time, there is nothing that says that he's lying.

One of the biggest things you ask is if he shot her in cold blood, where is the evidence to support that? They had no history (however short it was) of a troubled relationship, he's never been in serious trouble before, she had no defensive wounds indicating a struggle and there is no background on him that indicates he's prone to this kind of violence. It's one thing to get mad, it's a whole other thing to empty 4 bullets into a door due to an argument. She gives no indication whatsoever that they didn't get along, was even looking forward to giving him his valentines day gift. What kind of circumstance leads from a loving relationship to an argument in the middle of the night and he shoots her dead behind a door? I understand it happens but I haven't seen anything that lends to those circumstances at this time.

Like I said, I'm totally open to him snapping and doing something crazy, especially if steroids was involved. I just need to see more evidence and because of this, I remain on the fence.

He deserved bail btw. The state didn't prove anything as to why he shouldn't get it IMO.

 

[21merc7]

I simply cannot understand so many of the comments in this thread. What is being used as "evidence" for guilt is mostly conjecture about what people wear to bed and "sensing" things about body language and whatnot.

Not hard facts.

I can't even tell what is true and what is gossip. Did someone hear them arguing at 2-3 am for sure? Or is that just gossip?




Me too and he cried for days anyway. It's ONE picture and I see absolutely nothing in this picture. Not like Casey Anthony's little smiles etc.



Great post. This kind of tragedy sadly happens every day in the US. The key to me if he IS telling the truth is why she didn't answer or call out or come out of the bathroom when he was making all the noise.

Did she panic thinking that someone was in the "outer bathroom" if so why didn't she call the police.

Did she have her cell phones in the bathroom?


The other detail that people seem to be completely dismissing is that this happened when he had woken up from sleep. Some people wake up bright eyed and bushy tailed, others are groggy and not clear in their mind so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.


There are details I'd need to know as a juror before deciding guilt or innocence. I can't believe how many people are completely convinced of his guilt prior to knowing the facts of the case.

BBM

2 cellphones were found in the bathroom, that we know of so far. Don't know if they were hers and his, or what. No time for phone records to come back yet either.

 

[cityslick]

I truly appreciate Inobu's posts too.

Action louder than words is the phrase, but in this case so far, words are louder than actions.

I do like the notice of the singular approach. However, to give benefit of doubt, if I were to retell any incident, stressful or not, I would be talking about me and leave out important details. In fact, I couldn't tell you what happened today and it make sense to anyone. Too much would be left out, and it was a normal mundane day.

In this case, the scanned Affidavit was prepared with OP's lawyer(s) assistance. It will leave much out, even if he said more or less. There is nothing in the Affidavit worth salt once prepared by those hired to protect you. They know what to say. (I am not putting down defense attorneys, it is their job and they are highly necessary.)

Inobu is correct in that the singular is not helpful. The other loopholes we have discussed thoroughly already. They will be filled by the time trial comes. (And, just an FYI, many cases are researched via attorneys and staff reading here, also media. That is not new news for this forum.)

BBM

The magistrate did make a good point today though. He said most accused put out an affidavit simply saying 'I'm innocent' and that's it. OP put his entire story in the affidavit, opening it to be broken apart in a ton of different ways. That means that he (and his lawyers) are incredibly confident in their version or he has very bad lawyers (which I doubt).

We shall see.