General Discussion Thread #2

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  • #301
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-15-00-oscar-pistorius-valentines-day-of-despair

This is the link about her buying him the white photo frame with four photos of them as the valentine's present.

She purchased it on the 13th at 3pm approx. having spent the night of the 12th at OP's house. If the shop keeper can remember what she was wearing she may be able to testify that she was wearing the same outfit in which she was shot?
 
  • #302
I read somewhere that the valentines gift she bought for him was a white photo frame with four pictures of the two of them to go with it. She told him not to open it until valentines day. It was found smashed in the house?

This is not verified, just what I remember reading...

Oh no, that would be so sad, if the gift she put so much thought into was lying beside her body smashed. If true how could that have happened.
 
  • #303
Not sure about that, Carol said she wasn't even local to SA, she came from the states.
She was once local, she now lives in the states. She is the ex wife of the doctor who amputated oscars legs.
 
  • #304
Once again I have to go to the inverted situation in the context of the affidavit. When I say inverted I mean he reverses the situation. For example
If he says he was overcome with fear he is in fact describing Reeva's emotion.

Remember he stated that he needed the key to unlock the door to the toilet.
that means you must have a key to unlock the door.

He goes on to say during the intruder sequence that the bedroom door was locked and he felt "trapped".

He could be expression Reeva's emotion as that could be the reason that she ran to the toilet room. She could not get out of the bedroom.

He is telling the events that went on but it is inverted.

Inobu

Since I have followed cases at WS, I have found that the most clever and devious criminals use a little bit of truth in their webs of deceipt.

The introversion and bits of truth go hand in hand.

I totally agree with what you say.
 
  • #305
Once again I have to go to the inverted situation in the context of the affidavit. When I say inverted I mean he reverses the situation. For example
If he says he was overcome with fear he is in fact describing Reeva's emotion.

Remember he stated that he needed the key to unlock the door to the toilet.
that means you must have a key to unlock the door.

He goes on to say during the intruder sequence that the bedroom door was locked and he felt "trapped".

He could be expression Reeva's emotion as that could be the reason that she ran to the toilet room. She could not get out of the bedroom.

He is telling the events that went on but it is inverted.

Inobu
I think I finally see what you are trying to say, I'm enjoying your posts but I'm battling to understand in laymans terms...
His statement is taken from what Reeva was feeling...perhaps what she even did that night..to make it short, we all feel huge sympathy for Reeva so Oscar used her story to garner sympathy for himself?? Something along those lines???
 
  • #306
I'm gonna need more proof that they had some sort of lovers quarrel than using info from unverified stories in tabloid newspapers/magazines. I'm also going to need more than some ex-girlfriends mother to tell me that he's this controlling person. Nothing posted last night or this morning provides any sort of evidence that they had any sort of argument, that any sort of fight took place beforehand.

If the argument is that he intentionally tried to kill whoever was behind the door, I'll agree with that due to the number of shots fired. But saying that does not discredit his story. I'm not really sure why there are those that are so convinced he purposely wanted to kill Reeva when there is nothing that lends itself to that. I think the problem with cases like this is everyone always puts what they would do in certain situation and then decides if they wouldn't have done that, the accused is automatically judged. An example of this, he never checked on Reeva so they must of had a lovers quarrel, even though there is nothing suggesting there was one. He took supplements so they must of had an argument over 'performance', despite the fact no one knows exactly why he was taking the supplements, what the side effects where and how that translates to them having an argument about sex.

If he intended to kill her, I'm not sure why he would of rushed to break the door down and the call security to get an ambulance immedietely. If it was such a preplanned thing, I would think he would wait a little bit to sort out his story. The reports also indicate his reactions to when the EMT arrived and she was pronounced dead. If he was in such a rage when he shot her and you think not a whole lot of time had past from the breaking down the door, to bringing her downstairs to EMT arriving, that's an incredible acting job to turn full on emotion to her dying in that moment.

IMO, perhaps the best evidence against OP is his own statement. Even though it was very well-crafted by his lawyers, I don't think it stands up to careful and objective scrutiny.

Rage and sorrow are both intense emotions. I find it quite believable that OP slips easily between the two. If he is a possessive person, his reaction to losing a living RS would be rage and his reaction to the ultimate loss of her death would be extreme as well, deep sorrow.
 
  • #307
Then we can assume that perhaps Botha picked up the phones from next to the bed to check if any calls had been made from them, gets called quickly to the bathroom by a colleague, runs over not realizing he has the phones in his hand, kneels down at the toilet door to check out the scene and places the phones he is holding on the mat. And that wouldn't matter because we all know, at the end of the day, Oscar shot Reeva.

Forensics and evidence is absolute in a crime. Without it, there is nothing.[/Q

Sure. And I suppose another officer, or even OP himself, could have thrown the bullet casing in the toilet to make Botha look bad. The possibilities are endless, but I still believe OP killed RS in a wreckless, passionate rage, and shoddy police work doesn't change that.
 
  • #308
Loud guffaw! Yes, Carol, you are playing a magnificent stonewall innings, but the bowling is largely confirmational full-tosses and speculative balls just outside OP's middle stump ( :) :floorlaugh: :) ) so far.

Wait till the blood spatter and the ballistics spinners come on... :what:
Lol...I'm looking so forward to that. :D
 
  • #309
She was once local, she now lives in the states. She is the ex wife of the doctor who amputated oscars legs.

Carol you give good insight to what is going on. Applied reasoning dictates that she would have some form of knowledge. Pretty bold to just walk in and state her point as she did.

Inobu
 
  • #310
Good article.

What we as laymen think of as intent is probably the biggest issue.

In the U.S. (don't know about SA) "intent" can happen in the blink of an eye. There is a difference between crime of passion and intent. I am not that savvy but have seen it in many cases at work. Semantics and case law, and interpretation of those, is what it comes down to.

He has very good lawyers so I am certain the outcome will be favorable for OP no matter how it goes.

I agree with you, the same applies to here in Canada, and as you said he has a very good Lawyer. who has hired only the best team to work for him, to get his client off of all charges, and I really do not think S.A. has the best of the best, as they are not customised to this kind of scrutiny.
 
  • #311
Anabolic steroids

Anabolic steroids are synthetic agents closely related to the male sex hormone testosterone, which promote body tissue-building processes.
Anabolic steroids are effective in enhancing athletic performance. The trade off, however, is the occurrence of adverse side effects, which can jeopardize health.

Side effects:

Liver Function:

With the use of oral steroidal compounds liver damage can occur. The parentally administered Anabolic steroids seem to have less serious effects on the liver. However, lesions of the liver have been reported after parenteral testosterone administration.

A condition called Peliosis Hepatis is rare but is certainly life threatening, because it not usually found until the liver is completely shut down or until an intra-abdominal hemorrhage develops. The development of this problem usually repairs itself as steroid use is terminated. There are some indications that administration of anabolic steroids in athletes may lead to hepatic carcinoma.

Reproductive System:

There are indications that the duration, dosage, and chemical structure of the anabolic steroids are important for the serum concentrations of gonadotropins. A moderate decrease of gonadotropin secretion causes atrophy of the testes, as well as a decrease of sperm cell production.
Feminization occurs in males only. High levels of testosterone can often be converted into the female sex hormone estrogen resulting in some female characteristics such as the formation of breasts. This usually happens after a steroid cycle had just been discontinued when the men androgen level is low and is easily over shadowed by estrogen.

When steroids are first used sexual interest increases because of the heightened frequency and duration of the erections. But eventually the opposite happens and no erections can be produced.

Primarily in females, virilization will result in the assumption of masculine characteristics.

Cardiovascular Disease:

Studies shows that steroid use is a risk factor for heart disease. This is because steroids affect the cholesterol levels. Over a period of time the cholesterol builds up and clogs the arteries. High blood pressure is also a chance when taking steroids.

Baldness:

Steroids can speed the process up for those who are going to loose it anyway. Steroids convert largely into DHT (Causes hair loss to quicken.) Steroids that are derivatives of DHT can also promote baldness. And yes this is irreversible.

Kidney:

The kidneys main purpose is to filter toxic byproducts, and excrete them. Always when a person is on any type of drug, their kidneys are under more stress than ordinary. Electrolyte imbalance and high blood pressure will both lead to improper kidney function. Kidney disorders are often reflected in edema, renal colic and kidney enlargement.

Skin:

The most apparent side effects are the pores in the skin becoming larger making the skin rough. This is more prominent in woman when they use androgen steroids. Acne is very common.

Physiological side effects:

Aggressiveness, irritability, altered libido, psychosis, mental addiction, depression and mood swings.


CLEANSING - STIMULATION OF MALE ORGANS

It Promotes the removal of wastes and toxins from the body and helps improve your own production of testosteron.
After taking anabolic steroids its the best you can do to get your body back to normal.

ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE - LIVER - KIDNEY - MALE ORGANS - HOMEOPATHY
Name: Indications:

Solidago compositum
Package size:
10 ampoules.
Stimulate kidney functions.
Acute and chronic diseases of the kidneys and urinary tract, such as cystitis, cystopyelitis, nephrolithiasis, hydronephrosis, nocturnal enuresis, incontinentia urinae, the 1st stage of prostatic adenoma; stimulation of excretion from the kidneys, e.g. in the case of hyper-hidrosis, sudoresis of the feet, eczema.
Testis compositum
Package size:
10 ampoules.
Stimulation of the male organs, e.g. in impotentia virilis, ejaculatio praecox, exhaustion; osteomalacia
.

Hepar compositum
Package size:
10 ampoules.
Stimulation of the detoxicating function of the liver in acute and chronic diseases of the liver, e.g. hepatitis, cholangitis and chole-cystitis; in functional disorders of the liver of toxic origin; the auxil-iary treatment of dermatosis of various origins; neurodermatitis.

Recommended program: 5 weeks program for standard therapy. (according to BioNordic)
Monday:
1 ampoule Solidago compositum (Dissolved in a glass of water)

Tuesday:
1 ampoule Testis compositum (Dissolved in a glass of water)

Wednesday:
1 ampoule Hepar compositum (Dissolved in a glass of water)

Thursday:
1 ampoule Solidago compositum (Dissolved in a glass of water)

Friday:
1 ampoule Testis compositum (Dissolved in a glass of water)

Saturday:
1 ampoule Hepar compositum (Dissolved in a glass of water)

Sunday:
One medication free day.

Package size for 5 weeks: 10 ampoules Solidago compositum, 10 ampoules Testis compositum and 10 ampoules Hepar compositum.

http://www.bionordic.dk/indhold/news/Anabolic.html

I think this could be significant.
 
  • #312
I think I finally see what you are trying to say, I'm enjoying your posts but I'm battling to understand in laymans terms...
His statement is taken from what Reeva was feeling...perhaps what she even did that night..to make it short, we all feel huge sympathy for Reeva so Oscar used her story to garner sympathy for himself?? Something along those lines???

Yes, you are getting it.

He has to have a alibi. The alibi has to have some form or basis to it. He can only derive the story from what took place. To make himself look less of an aggressor his story takes claim to the emotions of Reeva. He starts flipping the scenario. There was a good person and there was a bad person. He is claiming to be the good. t

That's why he uses the terms. "My stump", "I'm vulnerable". He placing himself on the complete opposite end of the aggressive spectrum.

Inobu
 
  • #313
It's only fair that I let you all know that I've just quickly paged through the latest YOU magazine ( out on stands yesterday) which naturally has 15 pages dedicated to the case. This magazine is very popular, most local celebs like to be on the cover and have their picture taken for it but they are quite ummm..tabloidish if that makes sense.

No new pictures to share unfortunately but YOU have been known to get the inside scoop of crime scenes etc so maybe next week they will have something...all other pictures are what we have seen on the web, 1 picture of his entrance way with the staircase to the right, you can see the area where Reeva took her last.

There is a snippet of information/gossip that might be of interest to you...and I quote from the article directly but shortened else it will take too long.

" I was there when Oscar used the drugs CAT and cocaine" a well known and sometimes controversial TV star tells YOU. " Oscar met a drug dealer in rivonia, we pulled off the road in his car and did a line of cocaine. Oscar and a few famous rugby players in Pretoria are caught in a net of drugs, parties, alcohol abuse,fast cars and beautiful women. Oscar likes waving guns around, threatening people. He is a jealous guy who doesn't treat women well. One moment he's "the man" and the next he's crying like a baby. "
The source spoke openly and was prepared to give his name but then changed his mind because Oscar might sue him.

Read into that what you like. :D
I hope I don't regret writing that all up hehehe.. :p
 
  • #314
  • #315
A legal opinion Written by Pierre De Vos on February 22, 2013 at 15:15 pm

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/oscar-pistorius-criminal-law-101/

"Error in objecto can never be a valid defence on a count of murder, provided that it stands firm that the accused’s error was only as far as the identity of the victim is concerned. In other words, the accused inttends to kill Y (a suspected intruder in casu), but, inadvertently kills Z (Reeva in casu) – error in objecto cannot be a valid defence. In such a case it does not matter whether the accused did not have the subjective foresight that he might be killing Z instead of Y – and it does not matter that Z’s details are mentioned in the charge (and not that of Y). … On the other hand, I think that error in objecto might be a valid defence if the accused subjectively erred by thinking that he is shooting an animal, and not a human being, under circumstances where he would have been lawfully permitted to kill an animal (e.g., a hunting dog or a wild animal out in fields where a farmer’s sheep are; or baboons suspected of stealing mealies; etc.) … It will all depend on whether the trial court (and / or the appeal courts) believes the accused’s version of the events.

In this case, however, it appears from the outset that Oscar (on his version) only erred in as far as the identity of the person is concerned – he did not think that he was shooting at something else than a real person. So the defence of error in objecto will not constitute a valid defence.

Most of what you said above is correct, but I think that more detail should be given as part of your 101 so that other readers may understand – I see one person asks what the possible sentence would be if Oscar is in the end convicted of culpable homicide instead of murder.

Murder is defined as the unlawful and intentional killing of another human being. The elements that the state will have to prove is

(1) willful conduct – either an omissio or commissio [no problem in this case - Oscar was, on his own version, perfectly in his sound and sober senses and he clearly and willfully wanted to discharge some shots from his fire arm, which he did];

(2) unlawfulness of the conduct [again no prolem in this case - conceded by Barry Roux - as obectively judged, Oscar's life and limb or property were not in danger at all, therefore, not entitled by law to act in private defence]; a consequence of the conduct (which is causally linked to the conduct) – in this case, the death of another person – Reeva [again no problem in this case as consequence – death of a person – and causal link between the conduct – shooting – and the consequence stands beyond any doubt whatsoever). All that remains is to determine whether Oscar was at fault and can therefore be blamed in terms of the criminal law for his unlawful killing of another human being.

Murder requires intent as the form of mental blameworthiness (mens rea if you will) – as opposed to culpable homicide where negligence (sometimes called culpa or criminal negligence if you wish) is enoght to establish culpability. The test for intent (as youn rightly observe) is subjective – in other words, the state (through evidence and other objective facts) must establish that the accused (in his own subjective mind) legally intended the killing of another person. Again, as you rightly observe, there are more than one form of intent that is recognized here – dolus directus (or direct intention) where the accused intends killing the other person (regardless of the identity of that person – I might add); dolus indirectus (or indirect intention – where the accused shoots at an object but realises that, in order to hit that object, he will necessarily have to hit and kill a person); and dolus eventualis (subjective forseeable intent – where the accused person foresees that his conduct might kill another person – e.g.’the motorvehicle accident cases resulting in convictions of murder). Again, in this case, I do not think that, even on Oscar’s own version, can he escape the ultimate conclusion that he intended killing another person. He shot at what he perceived to be another person – on the state’s version, Reeva, on his version, a suspected intruder, and a court will have to be naive to hold that he did not intend killing that person (firing four shots, in close grouping, through a closed door on the hieght of the toilet). I do not think that the court will even be required to test for negligence, since intention, probably direct intention, to kill another person would easily be established by the objectively ascertainable facts in this case. (However, if negligence must in the end be tested for – as suggested by Gerrie Nel the best possible scenario for Oscar – the test will be objective, not subjective.

In other words, the court will have to determine whether the reasonable person in Oscar’s position would have foreseen that he might kill another human being.

In such a case – the crime to be considered would be culpable homicide.) I do not think it will come to that though – we have enough facts disclosed at the bail hearing to conclude otherwise, namely that Oscar intended killing another human being. At the most, there can be a difference of opinion whether he directly intended killing another person, or whether he can only be blamed on grounds of dolus eventualis.

(The argument by Barry Roux during the bail hearing that the state charged Oscar with the intention to kill Reeva and not with the intention to kill a suspected intruder, and that he can therefore never be held guilty of the crime charged – is laughable to say the least because, as we have established, any error in objecto will not assist Oscar in escaping conviction. If a bomber boms a place, he will be charged and convicted of the murder and attempted murder of every victim by name, even though the accused did not know their identity.)

However, and again you are right – intention does not only require that the accused person intends (in law) to kill another person – be it with direct, indirect or foreseebale intent; but, also that the accused subjectively knew or, at least, foresaw, that his conduct will also be legally inexcusable or unlawful.

This is where putative private defence comes into play as in the De Oliveira case you cite. If one subjectively thinks (or, in the case of negligence, if the reasonable person in the same circumstances would have thought) that one’s conduct is lawful – that one is entitled to act in private defence, then intent (or negligence) in the unlawful killing would not have been established. Again, the question will be – who does the court believe?

The SCA spelt it out in the De Oliveira matter that a court will not easily come to a decision favourable as to the accused’s state of mind if he does not testify so that his version can be tested through cross examination. However, if an accused person does testify in such circumstances, and his version is not believed to be reasonably possibly true when weighed against the state’s case (evidence and other objectively ascertained facts), and where the court finds that the state’s case had to be believd instead – in other words that there was no error on the legal position, the accused will still be convicted of murder. (By the way – putative private defence also arises in culpable homicide or negligent killing cases – in such cases the court will have to determinne whether the reasonable person in the position of the accused would have known or, at least, foreseen, that his conduct is unlawful.)

It is in this regard that I have argued elsewhere that Oscar’s version of putative private defence (that he thought he shot at suspected intruders) – on the probabilities alone, sounds less convincing than the version of the state, that he intended killing Reeva.

I am also of the opinion that, even should his own version be accepted (which is the most improbable of the two postulations), the trial court will in the end find that he indeed erred in law, in other words that he indeed thought that he is entitled to shoot and kill an intruder without first warning and challenging and without establishing that a killing of the person is required. Even if he testifies at his own trial, I do not think he will escape conviction on this defence. If, on the other hand, the state’s case is accepted, which I think more probable at the moment, the court will outright reject his version and find that there was no case of error.

OK. I am not going into the onus of proof thing – and I know that criminal cases are usualy not settled only by ascertaining the inherent probabilities and improbabilities (the onus is proof beyond reasonable doubt, not proof on a preponderance of probabilities as in civil matters). But, on the facts as they stand, I think one can argue that Oscar’s chances of escaping a conviction at his ultimate trial is less than favourable (or slightly less than average as someone else would have said).

Now – the question of sentence. The issue of planning or premeditation to murder is only relevant as far as sentence is concerned (and to determine whether the charge is a schedule 6 or a scedule 5 one at a bail hearing). If premeditated or planned – the minimum sentence would be life imprisonment in terms of section 51(1) of the Criminal law Amenment Act 105 of 1997; or, if not premeditated – the minimum sentence would be 15 years imprisonment in terms of section 51(2)(a)(i) of the same Act, except if the court could find that there are substantial and compelling circumstances justifyaing a lesser sentence.

In the case of culpable homicide, there is no minimum sentence – but in cases of gross negligence (and I think IF a court finds that intent has not been proven, only negligence, the court will be hell-bent to find that there was only minor negligence, not gross negligence on his part), courts will almost invariably impose a term of gaol.

Oscar’s chances are therefore not good – but, as far as the possibility of bail is concerned, I have remarked elsewhere that, even if the state’s case is strong, which I think it is, he will be granted bail. I do not know what Desmond Nair is thinking – as I am not listening to his judgment right now – but, I think that there is a reasonable possibility of him being granted bail nonetheless. One should however still bear in mind that the magsitrate’s findings at the bail hearing are not binding on the trial court – and two different findings may indeed be possible, depending on the evidence eventually presented to the trial court.
 
  • #316
Another snippet from the magazine regarding his childhood.

Parents divorced, the children went to live their mother. After her death, btw, its mentioned Oscar was very close to her...seems they stayed with an aunt on weekends, Aimee lived with her while Oscar and his brother didn't have a permenant home for several years, moving between boarding schools, their aunt and friends. No mention of their father except to say Oscar had a difficult relationship with him, his father was more of a friend than a parent and things further became complicated with his father became his manager.
 
  • #317
It's only fair that I let you all know that I've just quickly paged through the latest YOU magazine ( out on stands yesterday) which naturally has 15 pages dedicated to the case. This magazine is very popular, most local celebs like to be on the cover and have their picture taken for it but they are quite ummm..tabloidish if that makes sense.

No new pictures to share unfortunately but YOU have been known to get the inside scoop of crime scenes etc so maybe next week they will have something...all other pictures are what we have seen on the web, 1 picture of his entrance way with the staircase to the right, you can see the area where Reeva took her last.

There is a snippet of information/gossip that might be of interest to you...and I quote from the article directly but shortened else it will take too long.

" I was there when Oscar used the drugs CAT and cocaine" a well known and sometimes controversial TV star tells YOU. " Oscar met a drug dealer in rivonia, we pulled off the road in his car and did a line of cocaine. Oscar and a few famous rugby players in Pretoria are caught in a net of drugs, parties, alcohol abuse,fast cars and beautiful women. Oscar likes waving guns around, threatening people. He is a jealous guy who doesn't treat women well. One moment he's "the man" and the next he's crying like a baby. "
The source spoke openly and was prepared to give his name but then changed his mind because Oscar might sue him.

Read into that what you like. :D
I hope I don't regret writing that all up hehehe.. :p

Nah, not to worry.

Wasn't it from you that we heard the other day that it takes seven years for toxicology reports to come through in SA? Any residual blow in Reeva's system will have gone up in smoke anyway, so unless she's been tested that's a non-starter, and if Oscar was coked up to the eyeballs on the fateful night it will be 2020 before the world finds out! :)

Mind you, this whole sorry scenario makes a TINY bit more sense if he was out to lunch at the time...

"Young people these days, I really don't know..." goes off shaking his head... "In my day all a rugby player got was was half an orange at half-time..."

Edit: E.T.A. No, it seems it was Lola...
 
  • #318
It would be significant if steriods was actually found!

What I am suggesting is that OP could have taken banned steroids which led to impotence as stated in the article on anabolic steroids and then when he met Reeva, he decided to go off them to improve his sexual performance so he then took the herbal remedy. My prediction is that he could have phoned Carl or his best friend to come and get any banned steroids before police arrived. But IMO his taking this herbal remedy could be because of past banned steroid use. In other words, there could be an implication.
 
  • #319
Nah, not to worry.

Wasn't it from you that we heard the other day that it takes seven years for toxicology reports to come through in SA? Any residual blow in Reeva's system will have gone up in smoke anyway, so unless she's been tested that's a non-starter, and if Oscar was coked up to the eyeballs on the fateful night it will be 2020 before the world finds out! :)

Mind you, this whole sorry scenario makes a TINY bit more sense if he was out to lunch at the time...

"Young people these days, I really don't know..." goes off shaking his head... "In my day all a rugby player got was was half an orange at half-time..."
Lolol@ rugby players..Yar no!!

It wasn't me and I'm not sure on that fact, it does takes long..a lot of DUI cases are struck off the roll because bloods have failed to return or samples tampered with. I would imagine with the big guns on this now, those results will be in by month end. I'm sure it's being given top priority.
 
  • #320
What I am suggesting is that OP could have taken banned steroids which led to impotence as stated in the article on anabolic steroids and then when he met Reeva, he decided to go off them to improve his sexual performance so he then took the herbal remedy. My prediction is that he could have phoned Carl or his best friend to come and get any banned steroids before police arrived. But IMO his taking this herbal remedy could be because of past banned steroid use. In other words, there could be an implication.

Yes, it's a massive stretch and speculation, but it does sort of stack up, too... One to put behind your ear, I think.
 
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