General Discussion Thread #2

[joe jones]

Protecting his g/f? He doesn't even check if she is in bed, yet he is protecting her?

thats what he says he was doing, and that is what he will be presenting to the jurists who will be trying him, we shall see if he successfully achieves this

 

[writer411]

well boys and girls, based on what we've learned about OP, if he succeeds in convincing the judge that he opened fire due to a suspected intruder locked in the can taking a wizz and gets off, if you find yourself with a personal invite to the lad's home, my advice... take a bullhorn and announce yourself liberaly when in his presence.

 

[Estelle]

This article explains the main problem with this case.

Oscar Pistorius: South Africa police under spotlight

Detective Hilton Botha was forced to admit mistakes in the investigation Oscar Pistorius arrestIn the balance

It's been the quiet, rather overlooked subtext to the drama and detail emerging from Courtroom C over the past few days: the shambolic state of South Africa's police force.

Exhibit A is, of course, Detective Hilton Botha, newly dismissed from his role as lead investigator in the Reeva Steenkamp murder case.

It was almost painful to watch his testimony to the court - selective, speculative, and clearly loyal to the prosecution - being picked apart by a highly paid defence lawyer until the detective was forced to concede that all his bold assumptions about Oscar Pistorius's guilt were, on the current evidence, unsustainable.

But between those uncomfortable admissions lay another story, of an underpaid policeman arriving for an important job without the necessary equipment - shoe covers - to avoid contaminating the murder scene, and without enough "connections" - his word - or colleagues, to ensure that the most basic evidence could be processed in time for the bail hearing.

Clumsy

He had no records yet of Reeva Steenkamp's mobile phone calls, no information about the post-mortem, no forensic or ballistic information beyond a few informal conversations with experts at the scene.

Other evidence about alleged "testosterone" proved wrong and the defence said its own investigators had found a bullet cartridge clumsily overlooked by the police.

Given that this is perhaps the most high-profile murder investigation that South Africa has seen in years, it makes you wonder what happens in other, more ordinary, cases.

It also makes you begin to understand why, for instance, the conviction rate for alleged rapists is pitifully low, and why so many police dockets are reported to "disappear" from the files, allowing suspects to walk free.

The suspiciously timed announcement that attempted murder charges have been reinstated against Detective Botha lends itself to speculation, both about the politicised power struggles within the state prosecutors' office, and about a national police force scrambling to save face under the glare of the international media.

But to me it also speaks to South Africa's notorious wealth gap, and to a culture where lavishly paid senior officials - be they politicians, police bureaucrats or defence attorneys - appear to live in a very different world from the underfunded, underequipped foot soldiers struggling to get a grip on this country's enduring crime problem."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21543851

Just read the 52 comments.

 

[jjenny]

Doesn't mean he doesn't think she's there according to him.

Well, she is dead so she can't very well contradict him, can she?
He knows she is in the apartment. He hears a noise from the bathroom. He doesn't realize it could be his g/f using the bathroom? Is that reasonable? I don't think so. It's reckless at the very least to shoot at the bathroom door, and not even checking if his g/f was using the bathroom.

 

[jjenny]

well boys and girls, based on what we've learned about OP, if he succeeds in convincing the judge that he opened fire due to a suspected intruder locked in the can taking a wizz and gets off, if you find yourself with a personal invite to the lad's home, my advice... take a bullhorn and announce yourself liberaly when in his presence.

Last thing I would want to do is to accept a personal invite into his house.
:floorlaugh:

 

[SweetT]

Interesting, half the door was in the toilet room. How far would he had broken the door before giving up? Then why would he use a key if the door was half broken already?

Ask him..thats his story not ours.

 

[SweetT]

That's a new thought - trying to beat the door down with the bat first.

I don't understand "used the bat to rescue her". What do you mean?

After he realized she might be in the bathroom and he might have shot her he put his legs back on and got the bat and tried to knock the door down to get her out of the bathroom...then he found the key....

 

[Patticake]

I read somewhere that the valentines gift she bought for him was a white photo frame with four pictures of the two of them to go with it. She told him not to open it until valentines day. It was found smashed in the house?

This is not verified, just what I remember reading...

This MIGHT be what you saw:

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-15-00-oscar-pistorius-valentines-day-of-despair

QUOTE

The Mail & Guardian has learnt that Steenkamp, an FHM model, visited Party Box Goodies, a gift shop in the Hazeldean Square just up the street from Pistorius's house in the upmarket Silver Woods gated community.

She was there to buy "Valentine's Day wrapping paper", according to the shop assistant who helped Steenkamp. The assistant, who asked not to be named, said that the blonde model appeared happy and in love. "She was smiling and laughing when she arrived," said the assistant. "She walked out smiling, too ... I offered to wrap the gift for her. It was a photo frame and four photographs of the two of them [Pistorius and Steenkamp]. I told her that it's good for women to give Valentine's Day gifts instead of expecting presents from their boyfriends. She agreed, and added: 'This is a surprise for him. He loves surprises.'"

Police would not confirm specific details regarding the alleged crime scene inside Pistorius's home, but it was rumoured that the white picture frame lay shattered beside Steenkamp's body when police arrived.

Police spokesperson, Brigadier Denise Beukes said forensic detectives had taken over the crime scene and that details of the scene remained "unclear". However, she confirmed that there was no sign of forced entry into Pistorius's home.

END QUOTE

.

 

[SweetT]

The angle of the bat?

Yes someone at 4 ft high would hit the door at a different height and trajectory than someone who is 6 ft tall.

 

[Lois Lane]

That's a new thought - trying to beat the door down with the bat first.

I don't understand "used the bat to rescue her". What do you mean?

From his affidavit:

When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.

I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/19/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-affadavit/index.html

 

[Zinn]

Interesting, half the door was in the toilet room. How far would he had broken the door before giving up? Then why would he use a key if the door was half broken already?

In the affidavit, OP said he found the key on the floor after breaking the door with the cricket bat. This suggests the door locks from the inside with the key and he reached through the broken panels to get the key on the floor. Unknown whether the key flew out of the lock and onto the floor when he hit the door with the bat, or whether the lock portion of the door broke off when he hit the door with the bat, or whether Reeva dropped the key from her hand when she slumped to the floor.

(I'm not saying he could not have hit the door with the bat first, I'm just addressing the part about the lock and key.)

JMO

 

[joe jones]

Well, she is dead so she can't very well contradict him, can she?
He knows she is in the apartment. He hears a noise from the bathroom. He doesn't realize it could be his g/f using the bathroom? Is that reasonable? I don't think so. It's reckless at the very least to shoot at the bathroom door, and not even checking if his g/f was using the bathroom.

but that is your idea of what is reasonable, what is reckless, I look at it from his point of view, to me from reading many interviews he was concerned about his safety, he has come home before and heard a noise (washing machine) and got his gun out as he thought it may be an intruder, he was jumpy and paranoid about his personal safety,

he has said he felt vulnerable when his legs were off,

so looking at it from his point of view I can very easily imagine he wakes, it's dark, he hears a noise, he grabs his gun (which he has said he has done before when he heard noises in his home) he says he has no legs on so maybe felt he could not fight, he thinks his GF is in bed, he lives in SA where rape/home invasion is a massive problem, he acts without thinking to protect (as he says) himself and his GF, it probably happened within a few minutes from hearing noise to shots (if his story is how it happened) so how much conscious thought would he have had, he may have been acting on instinct

now I have never held or seen a handgun in my country(England) I have seen them in other countries but have still never held one, I have never felt the need to have a gun, I live in an area that is considered safe, I don't have prosthetics, so I would expect I would have done things differently

 

[SweetT]

he has come home before and heard a noise (washing machine) and got his gun out as he thought it may be an intruder, he was jumpy and paranoid about his personal safety,

but somehow he didnt shoot the washing machine...

 

[jjenny]

My idea? He shot his g/f multiple times through the bathroom door. In what universe is it reasonable?

 

[Inobu]

Fair enough. From my POI, there isn't anything put forward so far that challenges his version of events. He may be lying about everything or somethings, I just haven't seen it yet.

To me, just because something should of happened (check on Reeva) doesn't mean that it's impossible that it didn't happen the way he says.

Just curious.

The witness spoke of three points that is contrary to what OP as stated.

The argument

The defense has rebuffed the argument saying that the witness was too far away to hear. The witness

The two volley of gun shots

The volly of gun short are collaborated with the shell casing location.

The status of the lights

The defense could not contest that the witness did not see the lights as lights can be see from a greater distance.

I think these facts challenges his version. Just wondering what your thoughts are. Is the witness account creditable?

Inobu

 

[jjenny]

he has come home before and heard a noise (washing machine) and got his gun out as he thought it may be an intruder, he was jumpy and paranoid about his personal safety,

but somehow he didnt shoot the washing machine...

Yep. I was just thinking how amazing it is that his washing machine survived, yet his g/f did not.

 

[joe jones]

and I imagine that the subpoena for Botha is already typed and waiting to be served, as defence will not miss the chance to get Botha back into court to reveal just what a shambles he made of the initial investigation

 

[SweetT]

and I imagine that the subpoena for Botha is already typed and waiting to be served, as defence will not miss the chance to get Botha back into court to reveal just what a shambles he made of the initial investigation

Bothas not perfect but Oscar already contaminated the scene with his friends whom he called before Botha got there...coincidence? I say not.

 

[joe jones]

he has come home before and heard a noise (washing machine) and got his gun out as he thought it may be an intruder, he was jumpy and paranoid about his personal safety,

but somehow he didnt shoot the washing machine...

that he didn't, but then he was not in his locked bedroom with what he considered no way to retreat, and he had his legs on when he was spooked by the washing machine

 

[SweetT]

that he didn't, but then he was not in his locked bedroom with what he considered no way to retreat, and he had his legs on when he was spooked by the washing machine

How do you know these details?