General Discussion Thread #2

[joe jones]

two witnesses gave an affidavit under oath. without seeing the affidavits, hearing from the witnesses, it's difficult to to gauge how reliable either the testimony or the witnesses are

from the testimony under oath from Botha he backpeddled on many of his initial assertions as to what the witnesses said they saw or heard, and when challenged by defence he had to agree with them that the witness could not say whose voices it was,

and then he could not even be sure how far away one of the witnesses lived

so I think one can speculate about said witnesses from Bothas testimony

 

[Lola]

ya know, i don't mean to insult our SA posters...but Jacob Zuma is a poster boy for bad behavior and treatment of women....

 

[Estelle]

Oscar and his friend and the Dr and paramedics were not processing a crime scene, they were either there to try to assist Reeva or to support Oscar, they were not required to put on booties before they entered his home,

the police are required to not contaminate a crime scene, they are required to collect all evidence that is relevant, they are required to do a professional job

One other aspect of the case so far that seens odd is that per the reporting, when police arrived on scene, OP's lawyer was already there - either SAPS reaction time is very slow or his lawyer lives nearby. I think that if Australian detectives turned up at very recent crime scene and found a defence lawyer already there, he might be getting locked up too!

What do you think?

 

[SyraKelly]

Reeva walking out on the argument and sequestering herself in the bathroom. Irrational people lose their minds when someone walks away from them in the middle of a fight.

and it probably made him even more mad that she locked the door on him-JMO

 

[Patticake]

I actually saw a picture of him standing in his kitchen, looks like he is cooking lunch or some thing and there is a half bottle of wine on the counter, in front of him is half a glass of chilled water.

It would not surprise me if Reeva and him drank something that night. Maybe, she could have cooked him a romantic dinner, they drank wine together, she hands him her gift, it was valentines. Certainly does not indicate he was a violent alcoholic.

I think it is worth noting that even Botha described the scene that night as Reeva & OP having been "drinking heavily".

I don't think anyone at the trial, any of his friends, or anyone at WS has described him as being a "violent drunk".

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[joe jones]

What a charade!

The prosecutions evidence, so far, is speculative, inept and incompetent.

What concerns me; is that the victim was removed from the crime scene

The defendants legal advisor was at the scene prior to the police arriving.

How convenient for the defendant!

why should it be considered a bad thing to get legal representation, I have said it so many times but it bears repeating if I ever had to have dealings with the police no matter how insignificant the matter I would have a lawyer present,

I am glad he was smart enough to realise he needed a lawyer and he got one, good ones at that

 

[joe jones]

One other aspect of the case so far that seens odd is that per the reporting, when police arrived on scene, OP's lawyer was already there - either SAPS reaction time is very slow or his lawyer lives nearby. I think that if Australian detectives turned up at very recent crime scene and found a defence lawyer already there, he might be getting locked up too!

What do you think?

why would anybody lock up a defence atty, everybody has the right to legal representation, I applaud whoever it was if not him who got him an atty,

 

[Patticake]

Being called at 3am to investigate a crime, Botha probably did not have time to find the booties if they had been available.

"Footwear and tire track evidence is rarely recognized as valuable in departments where officers routinely wander unimpeded through crime scenes.2 On occasion, this can seriously hamper investigations."

http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312020/protecting_the_crime_scene.htm

Could it have seriously hampered this investigation? In what respects?

In US trials where it is exploited to the max: Reasonable Doubt

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[NocturnalLady]

Then we can assume that perhaps Botha picked up the phones from next to the bed to check if any calls had been made from them, gets called quickly to the bathroom by a colleague, runs over not realizing he has the phones in his hand, kneels down at the toilet door to check out the scene and places the phones he is holding on the mat. And that wouldn't matter because we all know, at the end of the day, Oscar shot Reeva.

Forensics and evidence is absolute in a crime. Without it, there is nothing.[/Q

Sure. And I suppose another officer, or even OP himself, could have thrown the bullet casing in the toilet to make Botha look bad. The possibilities are endless, but I still believe OP killed RS in a wreckless, passionate rage, and shoddy police work doesn't change that.

I'm confused about the bullet casing. Don't most guns eject the casings so they land in an area basically where the shooter is standing?

So how would there be a bullet casing in the toilet?

Or do they really mean that they found a bullet in the toilet?

If so, wouldn't that prove that Reeva was not sitting on or using the toilet when she was shot?

 

[Inobu]

I think I will add this to clarify something as I was asked yesterday. How can people take the position behind him?

OP is a nation hero for many. The challenges his faced and his ability to over come can and is an inspiration to all. Not only did he set an example for people with disabilities he also motivated able bodied people to look within themselves and excel.

There has to be a great number of parents that formulated their children's drive based on his example. To lose this example can have its effect. These are the people that are lining up behind him. It is their hope that it is a mistake so as there is no recanting of his stature.

This is no different than Lance Armstrong and the American people or OJ and the Black community in America. People defend things when they have a vested interest in. It can be something or someone.

In reality the foremost role model and hero should be mom & dad and mom and dad should keep that responsibility and not give it to a Professional athlete as we are seeing a trend.

Inobu

I think I need to make a few adjustments myself. There may be some to take acceptance in bringing up Bible verses but this one has me thinking. I'm just learning about thing myself.

Proverbs 11:12

He that is void of wisdom despiseth his neighbour: but a man of understanding holdeth his peace.

I don't know how Oscar got into the situation he is in but I know that if one does not keep up their guards we all too can be in the same position. It is easy as texting while driving.

Websleuth is about finding the truth not casting judgement. If you find yourself casting judgement the I suggest taking a break and relaxing.

It think I'll relax a while.

Inobu

 

[Carol70]

Just curious.

The witness spoke of three points that is contrary to what OP as stated.

The argument

The defense has rebuffed the argument saying that the witness was too far away to hear. The witness

The two volley of gun shots

The volly of gun short are collaborated with the shell casing location.

The status of the lights

The defense could not contest that the witness did not see the lights as lights can be see from a greater distance.

I think these facts challenges his version. Just wondering what your thoughts are. Is the witness account creditable?

Inobu

Well, the witness did describe hearing 6-8 shots, only 4 bullet casings were found, and 4 points of entry. ( 3 in Reeva and one in the loo) so we can assume that he did indeed fire 4 shots. Do you honestly think that this witness could now be credible on hearing Op and Reeva fighting...in fact, I'm going to go have to check but I'm sure even the words "loud talking" were thrown in somewhere...the distance has been hashed over and over...and lastly....OP in his statement didn't dispute the fact the lights were on at some point, he just can't remember when he put them on...off the top of my head " I ran back to the bathroom with my bat and I THINK this is when I put the lights on" could have been before that or even after..he himself is not even sure! I'm not so sure how credible this witness will be. Also, just googled and I see that somewhere there have also been allegations the witness said she heard a shot and then 17minutes later the next shots....and in our high crime society, she didn't think to call even estate security after hearing those first shots/shot.

 

[NocturnalLady]

he has come home before and heard a noise (washing machine) and got his gun out as he thought it may be an intruder, he was jumpy and paranoid about his personal safety,

but somehow he didnt shoot the washing machine...

Exactly.

 

[Estelle]

What are the ramifications of OP moving the body? This is US law

Examining the body

Nobody is supposed to move the body (other than look for ID and some superficial moving) until the coroner's investigator gets there. The coroner is responsible for the body and everything that is on the body. The police (or the FBI) are there to find out who killed this guy, but the coroner is there to determine the cause of death. They really don't like anybody moving the body until they have a chance to look at it. Sometimes the position gives them a clue as to the cause and method of death. Also they need to see if the lividity (where the blood has settled in the body, it will always go to the lowest point and starts about 6 hours after death, and is a pinkish,purplish color) matches the position of the body. It can also help determine time of death.

Sometimes you can get away with handling the body before the coroner arrives but you have to have a good reason. Some forensic techniques need to be done quickly.

Before the body is moved, paper bags are put over its hands to protect fingerprints, things caught under the nails etc.

Of course, if the "body" is alive it complicates matters. Paramedics are called and they take the body away, leaving no body at the scene. Paramedics tend to cut through the bullet holes in the clothing and leave medical supplies around where they can be mistaken for real evidence. A forensic investigator will usually go to the hospital and try to recover what evidence they can. If the victim dies in the hospital the body will be photographed and examined. (All hospitals have a morgue facility on premises for patients who expire.)

Just as no-one should touch the body until the coroner arrives, the coroner can't remove the body until the forensics people have collected all the evidence they need. This can sometimes take hours.

When the body can be removed, it is taken to the morgue. The people that come and collect the body and take it to the morgue are called a removal service and do not work for the coroner's office.

http://www.mitchpileggi.net/Deep_Background/resources/forensics/crimesce.htm

 

[Carol70]

An interesting link I found, walk through OP room....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WswWzltE4s&feature=youtu.be

I hope the link works as I'm on my iPad.

 

[Patticake]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/23/pistorius-wants-to-contact-steenkamp-family

Oscar Pistorius 'wants to contact' family of Reeva Steenkamp

QUOTE

It is not clear whether the Steenkamp family, who cremated their daughter last week, are ready for such a gesture. The late model's father, Barry Steenkamp, told South Africa's Beeld newspaper that Pistorius would have to "live with his conscience" if he was lying about how he had killed her.

The athlete would "suffer" alone if his claims that he mistook her for a burglar were false, he said. The warning came as what appeared to be Pistorius's first public comment on the case turned out to be the work of a hacker. "Thank-you to every person that has prayed for both families, Osca", said a message on his brother Carl's Twitter account. A spokeswoman for Pistorius said: "The tweet is not from Oscar or Carl. We can confirm that Carl's Twitter account has been hacked during this very tragic time. We are busy cancelling all the social media sites for both Oscar's brother and his sister."

The London Paralympic gold medallist, staying with his family at his uncle's house in the exclusive Pretoria suburb of Waterkloof, was visited by parole officers and a counsellor on Saturday. Under his bail conditions he cannot drink alcohol, return to his own home or leave the country and must report to a police station twice a week.

Karyn Maughan, a legal journalist at eNCA who has been following the case, said: "I strongly suspect his legal team will bring a challenge to the bail conditions. There was a degree of shock from both the defence and the prosecution that the magistrate added eight or nine conditions that hadn't been sought."

The condition that Pistorius be subjected to random alcohol and drug tests had caused particular disquiet, Maughan added. She also said that, according to his coach, Pistorius was due to see a psychiatrist on Tuesday. "Apparently he's not sleeping."

END QUOTE

.

 

[Carol70]

I hope this doesn't come off as mean or degrading to OP but I wish they would do a re-enactment of the crime so that he could demonstrate the timeline & how long it would take him to do all the things he said he did both with and without the prosthetic legs.

I would imagine he is much slower without his prosthetics. Which IMHO means he should have had PLENTY to time to notice that Reeva was not in the bed or to have heard her flush the toilet (if she was really in there just using the facilities).

I'd also like to see just how dark it actually was. I can't see how it's pitch black when the balcony doors were open & the bathroom window was open.

I also hope to see a reconstruction. According to statement, the door and blinds were closed just before the shooting, he only opened the door again after the shooting to scream for help. I also want to add that most houses in SA, not sure if its the same in other places, but our bathroom windows glass is normally the type of glass you cannot look out of...we generally don't put curtains in our bathrooms...the glass is like a thick glazed type, can't see in nor out.

 

[weeeva]

Can someone tell me why it is impossible for OP to know Reeva was in bed when he got up to go to the balcony?
He wakens up it is very dark, he knows Reeva is still lying beside him, he goes to balcony,moments later (that's all the time it would take for Reeva to get up) he hears a noise coming from bathroom, still believing Reeva is in bed he mistakenly believes there is an intruder in bathroom.
Moments earlier Reeva was in bed asleep. He was busy at the balcony and did not realise she had got up. His mind set tells him that. He calls out as if he is calling to an intruder. Reeva may have heard him shouting that there was an intruder, or she may not have heard him.
If she did hear him she would stay put in bathroom for her own safety, believing that OP had encountered someone on the balcony, where she last saw him.
If she did not hear OP calling out she would have been none the wiser.
As her bladder was empty at time of death it looks like Reeva had just wakened up and nipped to the toilet unseen by OP.
I have read somewhere that it is unusual for the bladder to be empty at 3 in the morning, which I imagine would be true.
I think this is a classic case of THE TRUTH BEING STRANGER THAN FICTION or as some people say "YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT UP".
Give the guy a break until he has had a fair trial.

 

[cityslick]

Just curious.

The witness spoke of three points that is contrary to what OP as stated.

The argument

The defense has rebuffed the argument saying that the witness was too far away to hear. The witness

The two volley of gun shots

The volly of gun short are collaborated with the shell casing location.

The status of the lights

The defense could not contest that the witness did not see the lights as lights can be see from a greater distance.

I think these facts challenges his version. Just wondering what your thoughts are. Is the witness account creditable?

Inobu

Not if this was the witness that was 1000 feet away. You understand how far that is? How could that witness identify which house the sounds were coming from at that distance?

Do you know how far away the second witness was? I asked earlier, if this was a shouting match that lasted at least an hour, how is it that more than two witnesses didn't hear it, at least closer than 1000 ft?

 

[cityslick]

Reeva walking out on the argument and sequestering herself in the bathroom. Irrational people lose their minds when someone walks away from them in the middle of a fight.

Is there any way to know that's what happened?

 

[Carol70]

ya know, i don't mean to insult our SA posters...but Jacob Zuma is a poster boy for bad behavior and treatment of women....

Haha lol..Yar no...no offence taken.if we couldn't laugh about it, life would just be miserable.