General Discussion Thread #4

[Estelle]

Because

* nothing has changed since the BH - murder and prohibition of possession of ammunition

* bail conditions remain same - he's still free

*no new charges (discharging gun in public) despite reports

And Oscar cries on demand.... He (and his holy family) always reading the bible but don't know the sixth commandment from the King James Version: "Thou shalt not kill."..... bigot liars.....

I think the problem with the bail conditions is that perhaps they cannot change them now unless he does something wrong. Perhaps the State could appeal to the High Court after this now he has been indicted but I am not sure and have tried to do a search to find out about that. IMO he should have been put in prison now awaiting trial as all other accused murderers are and as witnesses will have to be careful in case he intimidates them.

IMO The reason that the two new charges of firing a gun in a public place is that they would only entail fines (said Karyn Maughan on twitter) and the offences apparently occurred in other jurisdictions so maybe they will be filed in other courts before the trial next year. That is what I am hoping as he will have to be found guilty beforehand. Otherwise, maybe their testimonies will suffice at the trial.

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan 16 Aug
Additional firearm charges against #OscarPistorius usually carry fines, but are part of NPA strategy to portray him as trigger happy

Kylie Dzomlija ‏@KylieDzomlija 16 Aug
@karynmaughan now they just trying to find things to make him look guilty because they can't prove the "Murder" charge.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Members of the Myers family were also due to testify.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/special-f...-to-have-107-witnesses-1.1564457#.UhH3SNK-2So

 

[Estelle]

Yes, as I've said, the most damning thing in re to PM charge, is the 17 minute gap between the 2 sets of shots. Along with the scream here etc.

Everyone seems to think that just because the Prosecution does not think they can prove he had his prosthetic legs on now when he fired the last shots, they think he is going to get away with it.

He could have done many things in that 17 minutes and the more proof they have, the better - such as making phone calls. I wonder if they have been able to find those calls yet if he did make calls. They need as much circumstantial evidence as they can find to prove intent to kill.

I hope they bring up the fact that he could have kneeled down as you do not have to be standing up to shoot! He knew she was low down either because he saw her then closed the door again or heard her voice and fired at the toilet bowl not at a person sitting on it.

 

[whiterum]

When Carl, Aimee and Oscar held hands in court and prayed, I am afraid I do not like the hypocrisy of people using their religion like that.

"Thou shall not kill"

My thoughts exactly Estelle, there is something very disingenuous about their public display of praying before the cameras and the world. Surely they could have prayed privately at home.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Pistorius charged with premeditated murder in Reeva Steenkamp death

At a hearing Monday, prosecutors indicted Pistorius in the Valentine's Day shooting death. Pistorius has been charged with planned and premeditated murder, which comes with a mandatory sentence of life behind bars.

The indictment says "the accused did unlawfully and intentionally kill a person."

Pistorius also was indicted for allegedly violating South Africa's firearms control act.

In South Africa, people can possess ammunition only if they're licensed to own a gun, and their ammunition must be specific to that weapon. Pistorius has acknowledged storing ammunition for a gun his father owned.

The indictment follows the completion of the police investigation into the case.

The double amputee track star killed the woman he calls the love of his life in his home. He denies the murder charge and says he mistook her for a home invader.

In the indictment, the prosecutors included a list of more than 100 witnesses the state might call. The Pistorius legal team has not released a witness list.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/19/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-steenkamp-case/

 

[Estelle]

prosecution case includes a fallback position

andrew harding ‏@bbcandrewh 4m
#pistorius indictment contains fallback - if state can't prove he meant to kill reeva they will prove he meant to "kill a person" ie burglar

 

[Coldpizza]

Taken from twitter:-

"Some of the state witnesses heard a woman scream, followed by moments of silence, then heard gunshots and then more screaming."

How on earth does his affidavit stand up if "some" not one witnesses heard screaming, silence, gunshots and more screaming. I am sure the PT must be feeling a little more confident.

I find the huddled prayers in front of the TV cameras out of place and no doubt for public consumption. Call me a cynic. Maybe this is because I am not religious but it seemed inappropriate in a court room, to me. Is this normal behaviour in a court, I genuinely do not know.

Here's the source associated with that twitter:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...esses-heard-a-woman-scream-then-gunshots.html

 

[Estelle]

THE ACTIONS OF A REASONABLE DISABLED MAN?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...esses-heard-a-woman-scream-then-gunshots.html

IMO This will be the crux of the case now:

The paper quoted “a person with inside knowledge of the case” against Mr Pistorius as saying: “The defence will try to show that his actions were reasonable for a person with a disability.”

What do you think?

Will the defense be able to prove that OP's actions were that of a "reasonable disabled" man?

IMO they were not of a reasonable "normal" man.

 

[Pisto_lius]

One side of the indictment

 

[Interested Bystander]

What do you think?

Will the defense be able to prove that OP's actions were that of a "reasonable disabled" man?

I think that may be all the Defense has to work with and IMO it is weak. Pistorius has purposefully developed his reputation as a disabled man who has moved beyond his physical state and managed to be accepted as competent enough to allow him to run in a race alongside truly able bodied athletes. He is very proud that he has overcome his disabilities. It would be a bit much to suddenly claim his response was due to his disablement when his life story is one of succeeding in all his endeavours.

 

[Estelle]

WAS PISTORIUS PHYSICAL DISABILITY A MITIGATING FACTOR?

1999 Albertsons Inc. v. Kirkingburg the Court held that not all individuals who suffer some sort of physical difficulty are per se "disabled" under the ADA. Instead, those who believe they suffer from a disability must prove their claim on a case-by-case basis by showing that their alleged disability substantially impacts on a major life activity

List of United States Supreme Court cases involving mental health - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OP said he felt "vulnerable" as he was on his stumps.

 

[whiterum]

THE ACTIONS OF A REASONABLE DISABLED MAN?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...esses-heard-a-woman-scream-then-gunshots.html

IMO This will be the crux of the case now:



What do you think?

Will the defense be able to prove that OP's actions were that of a "reasonable disabled" man?

IMO they were not of a reasonable "normal" man.

How vulnerable would he really be on his stumps, IMO less vulnerable than the ordinary man in the street would. In a gated community , dogs in the yard and security nearby, all he had to do was immediately press an security alarm, or phone ,yet he summoned no help whatsoever. He wanted to appear vulnerable in his affidavit, he is supposedly immediately in fear and terror at a 'common garden ' bathroom noise. What are the odds, in his secure situation, of an intruder rather than an obvious, easily determined innocent explanation for the noise, Reeva. Yet he supposedly completely ignores any possibility of the obvious, which would take no more than a few seconds to determine even in darkness by words, feel or touch but he immediately retrieves his loaded gun and with deadly intent and supposed vulnerability, stomps off towards the noise, the cause of his so called fear and terror.

Also how vulnerable was he in his account with a loaded gun, being a self confessed crack-shot and faced with an unidentified noise from behind a closed toilet door, he had the advantage.

He was apparently able and confident enough that he would withstand the shoulder kick of pumping four bullets standing on his stumps. It was poor Reeva, or in his IMO lying account, the one trapped in that enclosed toilet with no possibility of escape from his violent deadly assault , SHE / so called intruder was the vulnerable one.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Oscar Pistorius Indictment

(11 sides incl. complete witness list)


http://de.scribd.com/doc/161348107/Oscar-Pistorius-indictment

 

[jjenny]

How is it reasonable? He had to get a gun from under the bed. He never checks to see if she is in bed, while getting the gun? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Coldpizza]

Oscar Pistorius Indictment

(11 sides incl. complete witness list)


http://de.scribd.com/doc/161348107/Oscar-Pistorius-indictment

FYI, I added that into the OP for easy reference.

 

[Estelle]

What was the sequence, I have been reading:

WOMAN SCREAMS........SHOTS........WOMAN SCREAMS

Before we were told:

SHOT.......17 MINUTES SILENCE......MORE SHOTS

Which one is correct?

 

[Estelle]

'Pistorius and Steenkamp phones reveal no motive'

http://ewn.co.za/2013/03/04/Cell-phone-records-of-little-help

PRETORIA - Eyewitness News understands that the cellphone records of handsets seized at murder accused Oscar Pistorius' home have not helped the police establish what exactly happened there two weeks ago.

The cellphone records showed the last activity on the handsets was at about 8pm on 13 February, the night before the Paralympian shot dead his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.
Cellphone data also shows no record of rugby player Francois Hougaard – Steenkamp’s former boyfriend - calling or sending a text message to any of the phones.

It was widely speculated that a text message from him might have sparked an argument between Pistorius and Steenkamp before the shooting, after neighbours claimed to have heard screaming before shots were fired in the athlete's Pretoria home.

Police seized three iPhones, one of them belonging to Steenkamp.

Pistorius only used one of his two phones to call for help after shooting her, it emerged during proceedings for his bail application.

This article was written six months ago, but it appears nothing has changed since.

So what do you think the motive was? Not that motive is necessary for the court to know as long as there is intent.

What could they have been arguing about?

 

[Estelle]

focus to be on op's aggressive character and reeva cowering behind toilet door

andrew harding ‏@bbcandrewh 18 aug
case against #pistorius likely to focus on "aggressive" character and forensics showing reeva "cowering" behind door. http://www.citypress.co.za/news/reeva-steenkamp-cowered-behind-toilet-door/# …

 

[Estelle]

"When you talk of intentional, it's premeditated. Intentional. He wanted to do that," prosecution spokesman Medupe Simasiku said. "In as far as a sound case, let the court decide on that. We believe it will go through in our favor."

Prosecutors said the second charge of possession of illegal ammunition relates to a lack of proper licensing for .38 caliber bullets found at Pistorius' home. Pistorius shot Steenkamp with his licensed 9mm handgun.

There was no mention in the indictment of whether prosecutors still believed Pistorius was on his prosthetic legs when he shot, nor was there reference to the cellphones or door. But the prosecution only needed to give a broad outline of its case.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ed-murder-girlfriend-reeva-steenkamp/2670029/

 

[Pisto_lius]

REMINDER

Affidavit of Oscar Pistorius (copy of the original court document)

http://de.scribd.com/doc/126352744/Oscar-Pistorius-affidavit