General Discussion Thread #4

[Pisto_lius]

Pistorius police investigation complete

Police said on Tuesday they had used forensic experts, ballistics experts, psychologists and technology experts to investigate the February 14 death of Reeva Steenkamp, who was shot by Pistorius through a closed bathroom door at his upmarket Pretoria home.

"It is expected that he will be served with an indictment and that the matter will be postponed. The prosecution, in collaboration with the defence team, will agree on a trial date," police said in a statement.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-08-13-police-pistorius-investigation-complete/

 

[Pisto_lius]

The well-known procedure of tabloids ullhair::

..... for they know not what they say or write.....

OP has a charge to answer to...

OP has a case to answer to....

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/police-wrap-reeva-steenkamp-investigation

Hopefully prosecutors know what they DO ! lease:


Police say their investigation into Reeva Steenkamp's death is complete - YouTube

 

[Estelle]

I thought Statuesque meant hard faced with eyes as cold as marbles LOL.

I thought I must have been wrong saying "statuesque" means "tall" but I found this definition:

stat·u·esque (esp. of a woman) Attractively tall and dignified: "her statuesque beauty".

More words related to statuesque
beautiful
adj. physically attractive
alluring, cute, dazzling, delightful, fascinating, fine, gorgeous, graceful, grand, lovely, magnificent, marvelous, pretty, stunning, superb, wonderful

Oscar takes ‘beautiful’ young woman to see his racy R1.5m Audi R8

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscar-takes-beautiful-young-woman-to-see-his-racy-r1-5m-audi-r8/

Erin Stear will be a witness I guess for the Defence but would also be questioned by the Prosecution. My hunch now is that she could be at least part of the cause of the arguments between Reeva and OP especially if they have been able to access the mobile phone records. She claimed not to be having an affair with OP but does it matter whether they were having an affair or not? It appears that she has at least admitted to flirting with him and seeing him. IMO it dilutes the fact that he was supposedly in love with Reeva and wanted to marry her as Divaris, his girlfriend and Pistorius' cousin claimed in their statements at the first bail hearing. We have also been led to believe that OP was seeing other girls too at the time he was seeing Reeva.

I am still wondering whether Reeva told Warren Lahoud anything important which police told him not to disclose to the media and also what Francois Hougard knew.

Was OP promising both or all girls a future with him which he did not intend to carry out? Was OP the type to lead them all along. Or did he expect his women to be completely loyal to him by not seeing anyone else but he did not return that loyalty to his girlfriends?

I cannot see why OP would be so jealous of Reeva seeing Lahoud the day before, that he would end her life because of it as he had other options.

It makes more sense to me if Reeva was jealous of OP and upset about his lack of commitment to her. Why did she keep seeing him as it was disclosed that Reeva knew about Erin and had met her the month before.

As we have later found out that they did not see each other often, and their relationship was not as serious as OP has made out since, I can only guess that Reeva found out some secret about OP that she threatened to expose to the media or police. IMO that would have been a stronger motive to kill Reeva rather than jealousy. I used to think that Reeva had found out, for example, that OP was using steroids which, from what we know now, would have been a stronger motive to end a person's life due to his athletics career and possible shame.

But if the ones found were only a herbal supplement, and not illegal, were others found by the police? Pregnancy could have been a motive too but we have been assured that that was not the case.

So do you still think the motive could have been OP's jealousy? or do you think it is possible that Reeva found out about some secret about OP that he never wanted anyone to know about?

I just cannot see that OP would have been so jealous of Reeva keeping in contact with Hougard and Lahoud that it led to her demise.

I would love to know what they were arguing about that night that got OP so enraged.

What do you think?

 

[Estelle]

My suggestions

:behindbar Charged for:

1. Premeditated murder

2. Possession of unlicensed ammunition

3. Failure to render assistance (calling every Tom, Dick and Harry before ambulance)

4. Withhold evidence (5th cell phone - belongs to him, used by him, given to somebody but not police)

5. Covering up killing Reeva (lots of time between shooting and telling someone "I thought it was an intruder")

6. Covering up the crime scene (carry Reeva downstairs, far from the actual crime scene)

7. Covering up assets (property in Johannesburg wasn’t declared in his affidavit)

8. Covering up offshore accounts (memory stick in safe)

9. Covering up prior threats and violence (gun in restaurant, case Cassidy Taylor-Memmory etc.)


Now it's your turn to continue.....

10. Perjury - lying in his affidavit.

11. Suspected domestic violence with cricket bat?

 

[Estelle]

Pistorius police investigation complete

When will he have to plead?

I suspect he will plead "not guilty" to everything.

 

[Estelle]

I'm back.

I notice that the news stories the last couple of days, and even back in June, called the upcoming August 19th affair a hearing and not a trial.

So I guess the charges will finally be read [but no trial--so a short affair], and the Judge will have to agree to them. DT will object to PM charge.


Would anyone here be surprised if either Pros drops PM charge or if Judge says no to PM charge?

It would be a travesty, but it would not shock me. I would still bet against it at this PIT, but not by much.

JMOOC.

:wagon: Welcome back, Shane!

From my post at #1022, on the issue of premeditation, Gerrie Nel said at the first bail hearing the killing was premeditated because:

1. Pistorius had planned to say he thought he was shooting an intruder. it was all part of the pre-planning.

2. Why would a burglar lock himself inside the toilet?

3. OP took the time to put on his legs and walk some seven metres from the bed to the bathroom door before opening fire.

4. The presence of three bullet casings in the bathroom meant that Pistorius must have been in there when the shots were fired.

5. Premeditation. "Deliberate aiming of shots at toilet from about 1.5 metres."

6. A conviction of premeditated murder carries a mandatory sentence of life in jail.

What do you think?

OP was able to deliberately aim the shots from about 1.5 metres (about five feet) on to the right hand side of her body as the blood was on that side. The shots were not fired straight at the toilet door, but rather directly to the toilet, the toilet bowl itself.

This makes me think that he either already had the toilet key or Reeva had not locked the door. In this case, did he open the door first, saw where Reeva was, closed the door again and shot her through the door? He then got his cricket bat to knock down the door to try to hide where the bullet holes were.

If they can prove this, then it looks like premeditated murder to me.

But I suspect that there will be evidence of domestic violence first with the cricket bat and then also a gunshot because of where the other casing was found.

There are some possible charges, including premeditated murder, murder and culpable homicide. Premeditated murder requires planning plus intent to murder. In contrast, murder only requires intent to murder (no planning). Culpable homicide entails negligently killing someone (without the intent factor present).

So if a person kills intentionally it's murder; where a person negligently kills, it's culpable homicide. You can then divide murder up into premeditated or not premeditated.

As far as jail time, premeditated murder would get Pistorius a compulsory life sentence, while murder would result in a compulsory sentence of 15 years. For culpable homicide, the sentencing is discretionary, although it's not unusual to see prison time in South Africa of 5 to 10 years.

http://www.tsn.ca/olympics/story/?id=416589

From what we know so far, I think that it is definitely at least murder with intent NOT culpable homicide which the Defense will try to argue. However, I think that Gerrie Nel pointed out above that planning was involved but whether they can prove it, it will be interesting to find out.

I am hoping that OP gets at least 15 years in jail.

 

[Estelle]

Well this appears to be saying that there won't even be a hearing on Monday. Just the indictments, snd then this hearing is postponed. (Let alone the trial.)

"Police expect Monday's procedural hearing to be postponed after the indictment is served."

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/prosecutors-finalise-indictment-pistorius-trial-092159822.html#L6i3zRP

Your post made me wonder what does a procedural hearing involve?

http://www.abcnews4.com/story/21254175/procedural-hearing-held-in-st-maarten-murder-case

If this case is anything to go by, in a procedural hearing, prosecutors asked the court for a reconstruction of the crime scene. The judge hearing the case grants the request.

Then court officials go back to the scene, set it up like it was found and they will take the affidavit the suspect gave them and go through it to determine if the statement about what happened during the crime is feasible. They actually re-enact the crime to look at things like line-of-sight, positioning of evidence and then compare those things to the statement they have on record.

The reconstruction happens before the trial starts and is completely private and no one other than police, attorneys, defendants and the judge are at the scene.

In the South African legal system, an indictment is a more detailed charge sheet that is used to move a case from a lower court to a high court.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/13/police-complete-probe-in-oscar-pistorius-murder-case

 

[Estelle]

Did you know that just days after getting out of jail on bail, one of the first things Pistorius did was to reapply for a permit to replace the handguns the police had taken away?

Pistorius may be especially gun crazy, even by South African standards. Police confiscated a large stash of revolvers, shotguns, and rifles at Pistorius’ home following his arrest, most of which he didn’t have a permit for. But just days after getting out of jail on bail, one of the first things Pistorius did was to reapply for a permit to replace the handguns the police had taken away, The Guardian reported. CNN reported that Pistorius always packed a gun wherever he went and at one time applied for a gun collector license so he could own more than the six gun-per-person limit in South Africa.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/...gerous-liaisons-of-oscar-pistorius/index.html

Pistorious’ violent tendencies aside, it can be said that Pistorious is surrounded by violence, on both a micro- and macro-scale. Maybe the talents of someone like Micki Pistorius, Pistorious’ aunt, a serial murder and crime expert, could shed some light on why Pistorious is part of such a web of violence.

I wonder what the forensic psychologists have discovered about the personality of Pistorius?

Instead of looking for sociological explanations, a forensic psychologist has the ability to apply their skills for gathering information about a perpetrator’s personality by studying crime scenes. Therefore, it will be interesting to see what forensic psychologists have learned about Pistorious’ personality and who have invariably studied the crime scene where he shot his girlfriend. An analysis of the crime scene where OP fired his gun with what prosecutors say was the intent to kill might reveal elements about his personality as well.

Behavioural Evidence

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shadow-boxing/201302/pistorius-forensics-and-behavioral-evidence

 

[Estelle]

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/oscar-pistorius-facing-watertight-case-052127872.html

"It's a watertight case....they have gone into a lot of depth and detail.

Trial will probably be in April 2014. "

That sounds very positive.

 

[shane13]

:wagon: Welcome back, Shane!

From my post at #1022, on the issue of premeditation, Gerrie Nel said at the first bail hearing the killing was premeditated because:

1. Pistorius had planned to say he thought he was shooting an intruder. it was all part of the pre-planning.

2. Why would a burglar lock himself inside the toilet?

3. OP took the time to put on his legs and walk some seven metres from the bed to the bathroom door before opening fire.

4. The presence of three bullet casings in the bathroom meant that Pistorius must have been in there when the shots were fired.

5. Premeditation. "Deliberate aiming of shots at toilet from about 1.5 metres."

6. A conviction of premeditated murder carries a mandatory sentence of life in jail.

What do you think?

OP was able to deliberately aim the shots from about 1.5 metres (about five feet) on to the right hand side of her body as the blood was on that side. The shots were not fired straight at the toilet door, but rather directly to the toilet, the toilet bowl itself.

This makes me think that he either already had the toilet key or Reeva had not locked the door. In this case, did he open the door first, saw where Reeva was, closed the door again and shot her through the door? He then got his cricket bat to knock down the door to try to hide where the bullet holes were.

If they can prove this, then it looks like premeditated murder to me.

But I suspect that there will be evidence of domestic violence first with the cricket bat and then also a gunshot because of where the other casing was found.



http://www.tsn.ca/olympics/story/?id=416589

From what we know so far, I think that it is definitely at least murder with intent NOT culpable homicide which the Defense will try to argue. However, I think that Gerrie Nel pointed out above that planning was involved but whether they can prove it, it will be interesting to find out.

I am hoping that OP gets at least 15 years in jail.

Thank you.

Well to me, the most damning evidence is the earwitnesses who heard the 17 miinute gap between the first shot and final 3. And it shouldn't matter if the witness gets the # of shots wrong in each volley, as I explained here a while ago At greater distances, echoes are more likely. The gap is the key. Just get a physicist witness to explain to the judge about reflections of sound waves (echoes).

I have also here given a hint at the worst possibiiity re the 17-minute gap and OP calling from that 5th phone!

And I mean before the final volley...

 

[Estelle]

Now we have this article which is confusing to me.

Police spokesman, Lt. Gen. Solomon Makgale told the Associated Press that investigators were convinced Pistorius has a charge to answer. They did not indicate whether the charge would be for murder or the lesser charge of manslaughter.

Given the fact that Pistorius has been out on bail since late February, and even resumed running, it seems unlikely that he will be facing the more serious charge.

http://www.[link removed]/902091/os...h-killing-his-girlfriend/#KVx4CJmUuWdu3RhC.99

That has been my fear too otherwise IMO he should not have been bailed but they did not have all the evidence then. Could they still put him in prison now?

But then the writer states that:

Other reports have suggested that the couple may have been arguing. Pistorius could face 25 years to life in prison if convicted of premeditated murder.

 

[Estelle]

A spokesperson of the South African police said Tuesday, "Now the investigation is completed, there may be a formal complaint filed."

http://www.nu.nl/buitenland/3549594/onderzoek-atleet-oscar-pistorius-afgerond.html

Complaint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does that simply mean a list of charges (as it was translated from Dutch)?

When would Reeva's parents be able to sue OP?

I guess they will make a victim's impact statement.

Also, I have been wondering whether they would be called as witnesses.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I thought Statuesque meant hard faced with eyes as cold as marbles LOL.

I think, "statuesque" means: beautiful as sculpted. But I'm understanding your irony.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

..............................

Also, I have been wondering whether they (Reeva's parents) would be called as witnesses.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...inting-Reeva-Steenkamp-premonition-death.html

Reeva's parents would have to testify a lot, what would show up on OP's character and temperament: "Recalling a phone call from RS who was travelling in a car that OP was driving at speed, .........................."

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Snipped

So do you still think the motive could have been OP's jealousy? or do you think it is possible that Reeva found out about some secret about OP that he never wanted anyone to know about?

I just cannot see that OP would have been so jealous of Reeva keeping in contact with Hougard and Lahoud that it led to her demise.
I would love to know what they were arguing about that night that got OP so enraged.

What do you think?

I cannot really see a passionate relationship or a jealousy motive on both parts ending up his intentionally murdering Reeva either..

As you said it is well possible that Reeva found out some secret abt OP ,
and that escalated the tension and he hit with the bat /shot Reeva with range and anger and after a while being afraid of the circumstances killed her .

What could she have found abt him that night?Just Brainstorming now .....
Except for the offshore acct numbers and memory stick ,I rather think
if he had any kind of secret/illegal things to hide , like stereoids ,he would hide it in his safe ... As Botha said safe was in the kitchen.. Did Reeva find that safe and wondered what was inside it ? .. or did she see him taking something from it and then it was somehow I dont know accidentally locked and why did he need a locksmith ? I wonder if it is an electronical one or does it have a key and was it lost? or again a forgotten password ?
BTW to tell the truth that locksmith thing annoys me from the beginning of the case..Maybe he hadn't forgotten tha password and took out what he was hiding before police arrived and then called the locksmith , so as to make Botha think he couldn't have taken anything from it as he even couldn't open it..

I know that may sound a bit paranoid but i simply cannot believe anything
told by OP and his team after seeing all those lies..JMHO

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Oscar Pistorius Nears Trial Date in Girlfriend’s Killing




Up to now potential list of witnesses (from older reports):

1. Francois Hougaard
2. Samantha Taylor
3. Gina Myers
4. Kim Myers
5. Waren Lahoud
6. Dan Frisco (?)
7. Mark Batchelor
8. Justin Divaris


-----

12 residences
5 security guards
3 paramedics

Possibily to name a few of the residents
9.Live-in caretaker, Frankie
10.Christo Menelaou

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Indictment against Oscar Pistorius finished




similar:

Prosecutors finalise indictment for Oscar Pistorius trial




I'm so excited ! :dance: .... :jail:

So am I:cheer:

Looking forward how OP will add up in words how he was sooo scared to turn on a light at the same time shout at Reeva ? :facepalm:

 

[whiterum]

:

I think, "statuesque" means: beautiful as sculpted. But I'm understanding your irony.

:thumb: :thumb:

 

[whiterum]

10. Perjury - lying in his affidavit.

11. Suspected domestic violence with cricket bat?

12. Washing blood evidence from his person and impeding forensic testing for possible evidence of gunshot blood back spatter.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I thought SA law allowed a defendent to claim the Right to Silence to avoid incriminating him/herself. If this is the case he, maybe, will not answer any questions and will allow his lawyers to do all the talking. It may look bad but if he has brilliant legal eagles it may be his chosen path. Can anyone confirm (or otherwise) this point.