General Discussion Thread #4

[Estelle]

Oscar trial date set for February 24 to March 14 2014 in Pretoria High Court but it is not known who will preside

An indictment, apart from stating the charge and a short description of it, also contains a short summary of what the State intends to prove happened. There will also be a lot of interest in the list of witnesses the State intends to call during the trial, which forms part of an indictment and which has to be made known to an accused prior to a trial. The case docket – containing, among others, statements of witnesses the State intends to call – has been submitted to court.

Monday’s proceedings are expected to be brief and merely a formal handing over of the indictment, before the matter is referred to the high court.

The police said they had used the expertise of forensic and ballistics experts, psychologists and technology experts. The State is expected to rely heavily on their expertise.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/gauteng/oscar-trial-date-set-1.1563194#.Ug3lJ9IweaV

 

[whiterum]

Which ex-girlfriend spilled the beans to the police?

None other than Samantha Taylor!

Exclusive: Oscar’s ex turns state witness

16 August 2013 12:14

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/exclusive-oscars-ex-turns-state-witness/

Why would he have a loaded gun in his hand while his girlfriend was driving, was he threatening her with it, then stood up in his rage and fired through the sunroof. He'll probably say he heard a noise on the roof of the car and thought it was burglar. No wonder she got rid !

 

[Estelle]

BY DR TOM BASSINDALE – POSTED ON FEBRUARY 22, 2013

What forensic evidence is likely to be key to this case?

1. Crime scene examiners – what evidence can be collected from the scene. Can we determine the sequence of events?

2. Ballistics – the angles and distance from which the gun was fired.

3. Blood pattern analysis – where was the victim when shot and where was the shooter in relation to the victim? The sequence of events may also be evident from this.

4. Pathology – what were the injuries that caused death?

5. Toxicology – did the victim or perpetrator have any drugs or alcohol?

6. Drugs analysis - is the drug within the vials found testosterone (a controlled substance and also banned in sport) or is it the supposed herbal remedy ‘Testis Compositim’? This herbal remedy is said to be used for sports performance enhancement and also by males for performance enhancement of other kinds!

Forensic science will play a big part in this case – let’s hope it is done correctly and to a standard our profession can feel proud of.

http://www.weareforensic.co.uk/oscar-pistorius-how-not-to-present-forensic-evidence/

 

[Estelle]

TODAY | August 16, 2013

NBC News Video

New charges leveled against Oscar Pistorius

The South African Olympian known as “Blade Runner” has been charged in two additional shooting incidents, one in January and the other in 2012. When Pistorius appears in court next week over the shooting of his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, the two new cases will be included.

http://www.today.com/video/today/52771348/#52771348

 

[Estelle]

JOHANNESBURG (AP) — Prosecutors say Oscar Pistorius will be indicted for premeditated murder on Monday and he will go on trial in early 2014 for shooting dead his girlfriend.

National Prosecuting Authority spokesman Medupe Simasiku tells The Associated Press the exact date for the trial has not yet been set and will likely be decided on Monday, the double-amputee Olympian's next appearance in court.

Simasiku declined to comment Friday on South African media reports that charges will be added relating to Pistorius allegedly discharging a firearm recklessly in two other incidents.

But Simasiku said the main charge on the indictment would "definitely" be premeditated murder, meaning Pistorius faces a life sentence with a minimum of 25 years in prison if convicted on that charge.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...es+(Sports+-+Olympics+Coverage+-+Top+Stories)

 

[Estelle]

Why would he have a loaded gun in his hand while his girlfriend was driving, was he threatening her with it, then stood up in his rage and fired through the sunroof. He'll probably say he heard a noise on the roof of the car and thought it was burglar. No wonder she got rid !

Samantha was the driver.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Most of the journalists who tweeted from the court room were wrong in spelling of the substance found in OP's bedroom (Testoconpasupium Coenzym), so media reports also were wrong with their name of the substance.

There also isn't any substance named "Testis compositum coencyme" but this are two different substances and the right names are:

1. Testis compositum
http://www.homotoxicology.net/matmed/combo/Ind4lgrh.htm

2. Coenzyme compositum
http://www.drugsfort.com/homeopathy/coenzyme-compositum.html

So no wonder no one could/can find it by Internet search.

----------------

And don't forget - there were four versions about this substance:

The first version of the story: Oscar Pistorius' bedroom contained two boxes of steroids, found after the murder of his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp.

The second version, at the prompting of the prosecutor, the lead detective changed that testimony: No, the substance was not steroids; it was basic testosterone.

The third version, from the Olympian's defense: No, it was an herbal remedy.

The fourth version, from a police spokesman: The substance has not been identified. A lab is still reviewing it.

 

[whiterum]

Samantha was the driver.

Yes, wasn't she his girlfriend at the time of the incident. I can imagine how unnerving it must have been for her with OP beside her with a loaded gun and the shock of him shooting through the sunroof, she could have crashed.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Very interesting news regarding the indictment

IMO - Perhaps prosecutors will use the new two charges for a motion to reverse bail so OP must go into jail until his trial begins.

It seems, now they have witnesses for this two incidents.

1. Gunshot incident in the restaurant
When the gunshot incident in the restaurant happened, no charge was possible because

"I went to investigate when I heard the shot, but they all denied it," said Loupis [owner of the restaurant].
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/No-proof-Pistorius-fired-gun-in-restaurant-20130218

“My friend took the fall for [Pistorius] because of his status,” Kevin Lerena told “Good Morning America.” “No one was saying ‘protecting Oscar,’ but someone else took the fall for us as a friend.”
http://www.thenewswire.net/speed-temper-guns-the-real-oscar-pistorius/

2. Samantha Taylor

She said: “I am prepared to reveal what (Pistorius) made me go through”

but later she retracted her accusations in a letter presented by her attorney - it is said, because OP threatened her and as a proof she tweeted this (but meanwhile she deleted it from her account):

 

[kittychi]

I was thinking about what Oscar was wearing when he carried Reeva down the steps while she bled to death:

Surely his clothes would have been blood soaked. I don't remember reading what witnesses said he was wearing when they saw him at the bottom of the steps trying to revive her. Was he in his night clothes? If not, when did he change? After all, he said the two had been sleeping before the shooting. In his Affidavit, he talks about putting on his legs, but doesn't say anything about putting on clothes.

Its another hole in his story pointing to the fact that both of them were fully dressed when he shot her. And as others have said, they likely never did go to bed that evening.

:liar:

 

[Pisto_lius]

I was thinking about what Oscar was wearing when he carried Reeva down the steps while she bled to death:

Surely his clothes would have been blood soaked. I don't remember reading what witnesses said he was wearing when they saw him at the bottom of the steps trying to revive her. Was he in his night clothes? If not, when did he change? After all, he said the two had been sleeping before the shooting. In his Affidavit, he talks about putting on his legs, but doesn't say anything about putting on clothes.

Its another hole in his story pointing to the fact that both of them were fully dressed when he shot her. And as others have said, they likely never did go to bed that evening.

:liar:

A paramedic who was among the first on the scene after the shooting of Reeva Steenkamp said:

“Oscar Pistorius, dressed in shorts and a T-shirt, was just standing there looking at the body. His right leg and arm were covered in blood. [this means, he wore this clothes before he carried Reeva downstairs. Were they in bed? NO, never ever, not a second IMO]

“He looked rattled,” said the medic, adding that Steenkamp had been wearing a black sweat top and long pants, but no shoes.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...of-blood-up-the-stairs-1.1471721#.Ug6GK9K-2Sp

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

You might have seen before but this is the first time I saw this sketch in Reeva's instagram.. Anyway I wanted to share with you ...

http://instagram.com/p/UjRot1wPdj/

 

[Pisto_lius]

You might have seen before but this is the first time I saw this sketch in Reeva's instagram.. Anyway I wanted to share with you ...

http://instagram.com/p/UjRot1wPdj/

No, I never seen this before. Put this together with the paintings her parents showed - how scary!

EDIT: Reeva posted this on 16th Jan 2013 - only four weeks before.....

 

[Pisto_lius]

And on 10th Jan 2013 Reeva posted this heartbreaking message of her mama

http://instagram.com/p/USx-pxwPZN/

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

And on 10th Jan 2013 Reeva posted this heartbreaking message of her mama

http://instagram.com/p/USx-pxwPZN/

So sad...

And this is from OP's Instagram.. Is this his garden ? I can see a lot of night lamps there ...

http://instagram.com/p/VHhW6BoR3j/

 

[whiterum]

They aired that programme again tonight on Ch 5 , 'Oscar Pistorius The Key Questions My '. Why are they pushing this biased inaccurate crap again just before he is due to appear in court. I thought it was something new but when it began with this bloke saying. "He had the world at his feet how do you destroy that so fundamentally." What ????

And what about Reeva, she had the world at her feet, how could he take her life and destroy her family so fundamentally is a more appropriate question. I had to turn it off before I started shouting at the TV like a nutter LOL.

 

[Interested Bystander]

It looks as though Dynamo will not be showing the disappearing trick filmed in 2012.

http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/Dynamo-dumps-Oscar-Pistorius-20130816

 

[Estelle]

Very interesting news regarding the indictment

IMO - Perhaps prosecutors will use the new two charges for a motion to reverse bail so OP must go into jail until his trial begins.

It seems, now they have witnesses for this two incidents.

1. Gunshot incident in the restaurant
When the gunshot incident in the restaurant happened, no charge was possible because

2. Samantha Taylor

She said: “I am prepared to reveal what (Pistorius) made me go through”

but later she retracted her accusations in a letter presented by her attorney - it is said, because OP threatened her and as a proof she tweeted this (but meanwhile she deleted it from her account):

I am so pleased that Samantha Taylor decided to spill the beans on Pistorius. Perhaps this incident led to the end of their relationship. It appears that the Taylors sent him off to see a psychiatrist but he did not see one. She must have witness protection now or be confident he might be bailed after Monday.

The only thing that worries me now over this is that his lawyers have to give the Prosecution permission to add these two charges of misfiring a gun in a public place to the list of charges on Monday. I wonder what excuse they will come up with to refuse that request.

The only reason that Samantha delayed reporting it was because he threatened her.

With the other incident the only reason it was not reported to the police was that they all denied it and let a friend take the fall for it. Which friend was this? What a friend to have!

So the delays in reporting these two incidents would IMO have been the only reason his lawyers could have come up with to stop the Prosecution from adding them to the list on Monday. So it will be interesting to hear the legal arguments they come up with if they try to stop it. Also to find out whether his bail will now be denied as I think there are strong reasons for denying it now. I think there would be a public outrage if he is allowed to remain on bail until February as that is six months away - IMO plenty of time to flee, suicide or steal a gun and kill a witness.

I would not be surprised either if more witnesses come forward who were reluctant before. There do not seem to be many OP supporters any more if twitter and comments under articles are anything to go by and it has been growing since yesterday. Just this thread has attracted over 58,000 viewers so far!

However, IMO I still think that his lawyers will give OP false confidence that they can fight this at the trial and set him free due to the freedom the second bail hearing gave him, his family's attitudes to him and the Botha fiasco.

 

[Estelle]

PISTORIUS' STATE OF MIND

I think OP's state of mind will come into all this too. I would not be at all surprised if OP has been diagnosed with some psychiatric or psychological mental illness.

For example:

1. Family friend Mike Azzie revealed he is worried over Pistorius’ mental state and claims star is on 'verge of suicide'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-met-ex-just-2-days-killed.html#ixzz2cC7TtGSi

2. Oscar Pistorius mental health needs to be "watched closely" as he is "traumatised"

South African reporter Debora Patta and Gareth A. Davies the journalist who has known Oscar Pistorius for over a decade discuss his bail hearing.

http://www.channel4.com/news/pistoriu...

Oscar Pistorius mental health needs to be "watched closely" - YouTube

http://youtu.be/OI90v7nPDzg

3. Experts agree that steroids could have made Oscar Pistorius more aggressive, but it's far-fetched to think ‘roid rage led to murder of Reeva Steenkamp."There is no evidence that steroids make you use a gun on someone. He said that other factors, such as alcohol and mental illness, should also be considered

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i...s-aren-buying-article-1.1267349#ixzz2cCAw9Hm7

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i...s-aren-buying-article-1.1267349#ixzz2cC9lBgOS

4. The vast, overwhelming majority of anabolic steroid users aren't committing murder and mayhem. Studies administering moderate dosages of the substances have resulted in no discernible psychiatric problems. While in a very small percentage of possibly "predisposed" individuals, steroids can lead to varying psychiatric symptoms, the appearance of these symptoms is generally correlated to dosage (<1,000 mg. per week) and may also be rooted in previous mental illness or abuse of other drugs. While it's convenient to assume simple explanations for unfathomable conduct, the truth is that human behavior is extremely complicated and rarely, if ever, can it be simplified down to a single causal factor.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-collins/oscar-pistorius-and-a-cas_b_2768938.html

5. Steroid usage has come in for constant criticism from various health bodies and with good reason. They have far reaching physical and psychiatric effects. They have been found to increase blood pressure, increase your bad cholesterol levels, cause cardiovascular diseases, liver damage and also lead to infertility and erectile dysfunction. The psychiatric effects are even worse and regular users are believed to become more aggressive, more hostile and exhibit various forms of mental illnesses, like mania, schizophrenia and depression. They also seem to suffer from a condition called hypomania &#8211; a type of bipolar disorder where they have alternative cycles of euphoria and depression. Users also exhibit a higher tendency towards suicidal acts and are prone to bouts of violence. Roid rage could also be due to the withdrawal symptoms that result from stopping use. It&#8217;s been found that steroids are very addictive and users become very agitated and angry when they stop using steroids.

http://health.india.com/diseases-conditions/roid-rage-the-reason-for-oscar-pistorius-madness/

6. 12:49 - Bam slams the magistrate's decision on Pistorius's mental health and emotional state. Says it 'escapes him'.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-UPDATES-Oscar-Pistorius-bail-appeal-20130328

7. The United Kingdom&#8217;s Daily Mirror reported that &#8220;boxes and boxes&#8221; of unopened performance-enhancing drugs were found in a drawer in Mr. Pistorius&#8217; home and that he told police he was storing the drugs for a friend. As a legal defense, &#8220;roid rage&#8221; is no Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card. &#8220;As a general rule, &#8216;roid rage&#8217; has been a terribly ineffective defense when it has been raised,&#8221; said Rick Collins, a New York-based defense attorney who specializes in PED cases. &#8220;The idea that steroid use alone is going to be accepted as the sole and exclusive cause of violent acts is unlikely to be accepted by a judge.&#8221;

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...roid-rage-its-no-get-out-jail-/#ixzz2cCG0c9OP

8. &#8220;There are police concerns over his mental health.&#8221;

http://hollywoodlife.com/2013/02/16/oscar-pistorius-revive-girlfriend-shooting-suicide-watch/

9. Individuals like Oscar Pistorius with a Borderline Personality Disorder (also known as an "emotionally unstable personality disorder" in the ICD classification, then divided into borderline & impulsive) shows unstable mood which is a frequent swings between intense emotions. We have to take note that another symptom of a borderline personality disorder is "vigorous attempts to avoid perceived abandonment"(frequently with sense of desperation). By shooting the late Reeva, he acted impulsively without considering the consequences of his actions along with that sense of desperation and of inevitable abandonment. A history of intense and unstable relationships with his physical condition is also possible that gave way to his hyperirritable emotionality that was previously reported on the news. In general there are two aspects of a borderline personality disorder, emotional instability and high impulsivity. What causes a personality disorder? Those diagnosed with borderline personality disorder (BPD) has been reported having been neglected on the physical and the emotional aspect since childhood days. This is common to children with a history of abuse and chronic early maltreatment as young kids.

http://www.examiner.com/article/oscar-pistorius-case-a-borderline-personality-disorder

10. His manager said in an interview on Monday that Pistorius was suffering from serious psychological problems since Steenkamp's death. "Oscar sleeps poorly. He eats poorly. There are days when he's OK but other days it's terrible," Peet van Zyl told the German weekly Der Spiegel. "When you talk to him, of course he listens but I don't reach him, he's not there. "He cries a lot."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-04/pistorius-to-return-to-court-in-murder-case/4731134

11. Is Oscar Pistorius really mad or just plain bad?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ar...r-just-plain-bad/story-e6freuy9-1226580576182

12. Annamarie is of the opinion that on the night of the shooting, Pistorius was like a pressure cooker that just boiled over. &#8220;I truly believe he had a mental breakdown, as this is not the Oscar I know.&#8221; She told Judge Raulinga that she tried to voice these fears earlier in the morning to the magistrate&#8217;s hearing the bail application, but he was not prepared to hear her. She then, in the name of justice and because the constitution demanded it of her, decided to turn to the high court.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-dead-mom-asked-me-to-help-him-1.1475017#.Ug7969IweaU

13. When he accidentally fired a friend's gun at the floor in a fancy restaurant, the owners happily accepted his apology. Nobody told the press. Nobody close to Pistorius warned him that he might be pathologically gun-obsessed, or if they did, they failed to convince him to seek help. He was rich, adored, untouchable. Only foreign journalists, unaccustomed to the paranoid shadows of South African culture, spotted the signs of what might be a simmering mental illness: the claims of wild speeding, the insomniac shooting sessions, the blunt weapons at the ready.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-22-00-high-noon-at-not-ok-corral

 

[Estelle]

Do you think that OP's Lawyers could use mental illness as a defence? (This is an extract from Australian law)

If the accused or prosecution shows that at the time of the offence he was mentally ill, the law will not hold them criminally liable. The jury will return a special verdict of "not guilty by reason of mental illness".

Principles

It is presumed that the accused was of sound mind when he or she committed the offence in question. The accused must prove on the balance of probabilities (more probable than not) that:

1. At the time of the act, the accused was laboring under such a defect of reason that he or she could not reason with a moderate degree of sense and composure.

2. The defect of reason was caused by a "disease of the mind". There is no legal definition of "disease of the mind" but in the case of R v Porter (1936), the Court specified that the accused's mind must have been one of "disease, disorder and disturbance" and cannot be caused by mere transitory passions, a personality disorder or impulsiveness. The major mental illnesses falling within this defence are the psychoses, such as schizophrenia and bipolar disease.

3. By reason of a disease of the mind, the accused did not know the physical nature and quality of his or her act; he or she did not know that what he or she was doing was wrong with regard to everyday standards of reasonable people.

If there is a verdict of "not guilty by reason of mental illness", the court may order that the person be detained in such place and in such manner as the court thinks fit until released by due process of law. The person may not be released until the court is satisfied on the balance of probabilities that the safety of the person or public will not be seriously endangered by the person's release.

http://www.armstronglegal.com.au/web/page/complete_defences_to_muder